The Problem With Franchises in Sports Games

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by macbranson

Here is one of the main problems. Overall ratings are an evaluation of past performances.

You're right, it is one of your main problems because that is NOT what OVR rating means. OVR is almost worthless. OVR is simply EA's mathematical calculation of a players overall value based on individual positional ratings. It has NOTHING to do with past performance. If you throw for 50 TDs, that doesn't make you a 99 OVR player. Having 90+ throwing accuracy and 90+ throwing power and 90+ awareness does that.

Quote:

Here is an example in my franchise. These are Cam Newtons stats and overall ratings for his first three seasons. Overall 77... QB rating:73.0 20 TD/21 INT 3297 YDS 227/431 52% Overall 82...QB rating: 62.4 18 TD/ 30 INT 3356 YDS 234/447 52% Overall 90...QB rating: 88.3 39 TD/ 26 INT 4361 YDS 296/522 56% Overall 91...only in week 2 of the season, won't post stats You see that? He went up EIGHT points after that abysmal season in 2012. Then went up all of 1 point after his best season where he was actually voted league MVP and won the Super Bowl. So he went up from 77 to 82 because he played a season and gained experience. But then did he go up to a 90 because they expected him to have a better season? What does the rating reflect? It's really confusing to me.

As I said before, a player doesn't get better because they have good stats. They put up good stats because they got better, play with talented team mates and play in a scheme that works to their strengths. EA's knee jerk roster updates and Madden's last gen progression system are why a lot of people are confused by this.

Next, I'll tell you what happened:

Newton has A Potential. Even if he didn't play a down his rookie year, he would likely have gone up in your franchise anywhere between 5 to 8 points in his OVR. Why? Because this is the game's way of showing you that after year Cam matured. He is learning what it takes to be an NFL QB and his individual ratings increased. Likely his awareness and accuracy increased. As a result, his OVR value increased.

Now, the next year even if he doesn't play, thanks to his A potential, he will still likely go u 3 or 4 points to show continued growth. By playing and gaining NFL experience, he was allowed to fully progress the 8 points worth of OVR. Now, in his thrid year in the league, he has improved his game to the point that he has earned a 90 OVR rating. His physical abilities liek Speed Acceleration, and Agility along with his positional ratings liek Throwing Power, Short/Medium/Deep Throwing Accuracies, play action, Throw on the Run, and his Awareness add up to a total of a 90OVR.

That means that Cam has the skill set to be one of the better QBs in the league. Then he went out and had a huge year and led his team to the promised land. That doesn't mean that he is perfect. I doubt he has 95+ throwing accuracies or 95+ awareness.

Now, let's take a break from QBs for a moment and talk about 3-4 Defensive Ends. In Madden NFL 11, the Finesse Moves rating for Defensive Ends had a ratio of 3 points for each point of OVR. That means, a player with 90 Finesse moves has earned 30 of his OVR point total from that one ability. The Block Shedding rating only contributes 1 point of OVR for every 13 [THIRTEEN!!!] points of that rating. That means he can have 90 Block shedding and only 7 points of his OVR come from that high rating.

Haloti Ngata, DE for the Baltimore Ravens was rated a 92 OVR before the first week of the 2010 NFL season. After a monster game of bull rushing and run stuffing against the Jets, EA wanted to raise his OVR rating... except he already had 95+ block shedding and power moves. So, what did they do? They raised his 50 Finesse moves rating up to a 68 so that his OVR would go from a 92 to 98. It's not like having 68 finesse moves matters, but it makes his OVR go up so everyone feels good happy and doesn't cry that Nagta is only a 92 OVR.

So, back to QB, after having a 39TD/26 INT season where he won the SUper Bowl and MVP, did you think that Cam showed thathe was one of the most accurate QBs of all time and should be given 95+ Accuracy? Do you think that he showed that he is one of the smartest QBs of all time and deserves 95+ awareness? Or... does it show that with his own athletic abilities, his team mates and the scheme you [or the AI] used allowed him to achieve what he achieved? Is it possible that with 26 interceptions that there are some holes in his game that need to be worked on?

"A" potential is a generality. A player with A potential will progress inthe off season and take longer to regress. One of the other problems with "potential" are opinions on who does and doesn't have A/B/C/D/F potential and if they ever did. The other problem is hurting people's feelings. Every single player in the first round of the 2010 draft was given an A potential except Tim Tebow... and later that was changed in a roster update. in franchise mode, you will never see 31 or 32 A potential raft picks all go in the first round... nor should you. In Madden, EA gives far too many players A potential so they don't hurt people's feelings.

Also, in Madden 11, when you look at the first round picks of the last two to three years, you find that very few of those players are not A potential players as well. Most of the only exceptions are some offensive or defensive linemen. The initial flood of A potential players, along with the excessive A potential rookies in the generated draft classes doesn't help. As was said in the original post, the lack of disparity in talent with a ton of A and B potential rookies constantly entering the league, "Everyone" has team of stars eventually.

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aftershock9958

I like the discussion happening here, and agree with a lot of it. My opinion is that age needs to have a direct impact on progression. Stats need to have a direct impact on progression. And there needs to be some variables behind the scenes that effect progression, that we may know exist but never know fully how to grasp. For instance, in real life you may draft a rookie QB and he may have a terrible first season, ala Troy Aikman. His age is young, but his stats are terrible. So the solution in this case and many like it, to me, would be to weight the age more heavily than the stats in the younger years. Something like, the young age helps you achieve a base of +11, but the craptastic stats equals out to a -6, so your QB only goes up +5. These are just hypothetical numbers because it would need more fleshing out. As age increases, it should hold a lot less weight. Like, you enter your 6th season, and now your age is giving you +0. Your seasonal performance is now the only driving factor on if you get better or not. You go into your 11th season, and you get -2, in season 12 you get -3, in season 13 -4, which means at this point your stats need to stay high to keep your rating up now. If you're putting up Peyton Manning numbers, your rating will remain high and your age won't matter. But if you were only ever an average player to begin with, you'll see your rating decrease as you age a lot more. Potential also need to be hidden from us. It basically gives away the end-game story of a players career from the beginning, and it makes the pre-season cuts meaningless, removing any strategy or chance from it.

Most of what you wrote is what's already happening.

I agree potential should be hidden... AND people need to stop caring about the OVR rating.

We should still see ratings, or at least a general range to have an idea of what we are looking at. it's still a video game where i don't want to have to go out and scout each and every individual player. I want to have some idea what I am looking at without making it a chore.

[PacMan3000]

Madden 13 really needs to incorporate ratings regression based on injury history. And certain injuries should becoming recurring, nagging problems, killing a player's long-term value to his team and diminish his rating every year.

Remember Dan Morgan of the Panthers and his concussions? Had to retire.

Ki-Jana Carter of the Bengals? Courtney Brown of the Browns?

Some guys are just snake bitten. If you get an ACL tear at the end of the season, your rating should take a hit the next season until that injury fully "heals." And if you tear another ACL, you should possibly start your ratings decline.

They could even scale it somehow--like, if you get the same injury twice in a season, or 2-3 times over the course of two seasons, it can put your player in a ratings downward spiral. It would add strategy to franchise mode: I have this great RB, but he's coming off an ACL tear last season in week 15. Do I hand him the rock 300 times a season again this year, or do I need to draft a quality complimentary back to take some carries away from my star and keep him fresh and healthy for the entire season?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

Most of what you wrote is what's already happening. I agree potential should be hidden... AND people need to stop caring about the OVR rating. We should still see ratings, or at least a general range to have an idea of what we are looking at. it's still a video game where i don't want to have to go out and scout each and every individual player. I want to have some idea what I am looking at without making it a chore.

I am kind of perplexed by this statement PG because OVR is what CPU teams utilize to make roster decisions. Now I know you stated "people need to stop caring" so you were probably just referring to User v User situations but the OVR really does need to be addressed so it's unique for each team.

Also, I don't know how confident I feel about the ratings, besides speed and maybe injury, place parameters on player's performance in Madden. I agree in Madden, ratings should dictate performance, not performance dictating ratings but I am not sure it workouts like that currently in Madden.

I don't want to get into some long gripe about Madden, like I seem to frequently end up doing, but it would be nice if ratings made more sense in Madden like they seem to in a basketball game. If a players has a low 3 point rating, they won't be making many 3 pointers and shots animations, like a non-shooting big man having an odd form, adds to the realism.

It would be nice to see, for example, receivers with very low catch ratings actually have animations for trying to catch the ball into their body, not looking the ball in their hands before trying to run with it or "alligator arms".

[Aftershock9958]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

Most of what you wrote is what's already happening. I agree potential should be hidden... AND people need to stop caring about the OVR rating. We should still see ratings, or at least a general range to have an idea of what we are looking at. it's still a video game where i don't want to have to go out and scout each and every individual player. I want to have some idea what I am looking at without making it a chore.

I agree that we should still see an overall rating, but maybe we shouldn't see a true overall - maybe something more like a number that is within a certain range of the actual overall value, with the number we see being effected by certain factors (for instance, those useless scouting companies in franchise could help to give you a slightly more or less accurate idea of a rating for a player not on your team, etc).

As far as what I've written, it's not really taking place. The younger players with A potentials will progress at a disgusting rate for several years even if they're not producing on the field. Older guys will decline based only on age, despite if they're coming off of a monster statistical year.

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I am kind of perplexed by this statement PG because OVR is what CPU teams utilize to make roster decisions. Now I know you stated "people need to stop caring" so you were probably just referring to User v User situations but the OVR really does need to be addressed so it's unique for each team.

That's correct. It needs to be more like Head Coach... but more refined. I honestly didn't play HC that much, but that's another story.

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aftershock9958

As far as what I've written, it's not really taking place. The younger players with A potentials will progress at a disgusting rate for several years even if they're not producing on the field. Older guys will decline based only on age, despite if they're coming off of a monster statistical year.

I can't speak for Madden 12, but I doubt it has changed that much.

If a player has A potential, he will improve even if he doesn't have ANY stats. That is the game's way of showing him maturing, listening to coaches, etc. STATS DON'T DRIVE PROGRESSION... nor should they. They also shouldn't drive regression. I don't care if Bret Favre came off of a monster and the NFC Championship game, he was 1 year older and hit a wall. Some say he was hitting that wall going into the playoffs.

There is so much focus on A potential players. No one is complaining about how quickly B or C potential palyers are progressing, are they? The complaints I get about B or C potential players is that they didn't progress after having good stats, which again is a misunderstanding of how things work in real life. A lot goes into putting up good stats. Do you think Emmit Smith would have the record without that amazing O-line? Do you think that Brady would have thrown 50 TDs without Moss? Manning without Harrison and Wayne on the same team? Another thing that works is scheme.

If a player doesn't have big stats, should he regress? Justin Smith plays DE in the 3-4 for the 49ers and is playing the best football of his life, but isn't a stat monster. Hard Core 49ers fan are actually making an argument that he was more valuable than Patrick Willis this year. Should his ratings drop because he only had 5 sacks as a 95 OVR DE while Jared Allen had 22? Obviously Justin Smith just isn't getting it done and is overrated... [rolls eyes.]

[JDoze]

Something else that would be a welcome addition to the ratings is hiding the ones that don't matter. If I want to know how good my RG can catch, then make me click on him to find out. Otherwise, just show me the ones that pertain to his position. That will also help us determine which rating matter the most. Hell, even put them in order from most important to least.... or maybe give us the option to adjust the order ourselves and just save it to our profile.