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ryan36 · 02-23-2012, 04:44 AM

Some of that previous post seems off, based on developer feedback, unless they were wrong or lying...

KBLover · 02-23-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan36


	Some of that previous post seems off, based on developer feedback, unless they were wrong or lying...

Or maybe were "framing" their words.

That's why I want them to have it officially laid out in black and white font in the in-game help (or the manual...they do remember what those are right? Or are manuals passé in gaming now?)

Looking at that post, the efforts of the roster editing folks, and thinking on how my guys play, I bet there's a lot right in there, especially for someone who's not on the development team trying to figure it out like the rest of us.

BezO · 02-23-2012, 10:22 AM

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Originally Posted by mpeterso


	I agree completely, with the exception that a player with 80 or less speed could never make that run imo - especially when running against 90-95+ speed players. To put it another way, it's very hard to gain 70 yards on a play in the NFL without even a modicum of speed - especially when you have one of the league's fastest players within 2 yards of you when you make the catch with more than 40 yards to go to the end zone.

Accurate speed, strength & tackle ratings could make that play almost possible. Madden's lack of footwork might have Hall recover too quickly, and I feel CB tackle ratings are inflated to account for other missing elements, so he might have made the 1st or 2nd tackle.

I said it several pages back. It's bigger than ratings. Sure, the ratings might be off, and adjustments might be made prematurely, and individual ratings might be minipulated for the sake of overalls, but...

Players can't be represented accurately until other aspects of the game are fixed. Regarding C. Johnson. He does, or at least did break more tackles than his size & strength would dictate. But he didn't do it with strength. He did it with footwork & quickness. Defenders are often off balance & unsure when trying to tackle him. He gets you leaning, makes a cut and negates defender's strength. Barry Sanders, though stronger, did it the same way. You just never get a good hit on these type backs.

Since footwork is not a factor, they have to represent C. Johnson's elusiveness in another way. He does break tackles. Madden almost has no choice but to boost his truck rating.

And I think EA needs to make the spin more of a contact move. Some guys to spin before contact as a bail out to change direction, but more times than not, ball carriers are spinning out of tackles.

moneal2001 · 02-23-2012, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	Accurate speed, strength & tackle ratings could make that play almost possible. Madden's lack of footwork might have Hall recover too quickly, and I feel CB tackle ratings are inflated to account for other missing elements, so he might have made the 1st or 2nd tackle. I said it several pages back. It's bigger than ratings. Sure, the ratings might be off, and adjustments might be made prematurely, and individual ratings might be minipulated for the sake of overalls, but... Players can't be represented accurately until other aspects of the game are fixed. Regarding C. Johnson. He does, or at least did break more tackles than his size & strength would dictate. But he didn't do it with strength. He did it with footwork & quickness. Defenders are often off balance & unsure when trying to tackle him. He gets you leaning, makes a cut and negates defender's strength. Barry Sanders, though stronger, did it the same way. You just never get a good hit on these type backs. Since footwork is not a factor, they have to represent C. Johnson's elusiveness in another way. He does break tackles. Madden almost has no choice but to boost his truck rating. And I think EA needs to make the spin more of a contact move. Some guys to spin before contact as a bail out to change direction, but more times than not, ball carriers are spinning out of tackles.

they already have an elusiveness rating for those kinds of broken tackle animations. truck is for the other kind of broken tackle animations where the ball carrier runs through the tackler.

Big FN Deal · 02-23-2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	Accurate speed, strength & tackle ratings could make that play almost possible. Madden's lack of footwork might have Hall recover too quickly, and I feel CB tackle ratings are inflated to account for other missing elements, so he might have made the 1st or 2nd tackle. I said it several pages back. It's bigger than ratings. Sure, the ratings might be off, and adjustments might be made prematurely, and individual ratings might be minipulated for the sake of overalls, but... Players can't be represented accurately until other aspects of the game are fixed. Regarding C. Johnson. He does, or at least did break more tackles than his size & strength would dictate. But he didn't do it with strength. He did it with footwork & quickness. Defenders are often off balance & unsure when trying to tackle him. He gets you leaning, makes a cut and negates defender's strength. Barry Sanders, though stronger, did it the same way. You just never get a good hit on these type backs. Since footwork is not a factor, they have to represent C. Johnson's elusiveness in another way. He does break tackles. Madden almost has no choice but to boost his truck rating. And I think EA needs to make the spin more of a contact move. Some guys to spin before contact as a bail out to change direction, but more times than not, ball carriers are spinning out of tackles.

While I am all for adding as many hidden ratings as it takes to better differentiate players, I don't think it will help much as long as they continue to be inflated and directly subjective. I disagree that this current state of ratings is not the major cause of the often unrealistic player performance in gameplay. The reason is because I have read where many others claim that certain ratings adjustments have resulted in more realistic performance and player interactions.

I also disagree that with better tuned ratings, that more accurately scale players to real life counterparts, that the play in the video would not be possible in Madden. Granted, there would need to be something done about not allowing User control to override ratings like PUR and MCV but I see plays similar to that in Madden now, that just don't playout as realistic due to players being able to cut/ zig-zag back and forth so unrealistically. However, if locomotion were more pronounced for all players, along with more accurately scaled ratings, that Ward zig-zag technique to stay just out of reach of a faster Hall, which is in Madden now, would playout more realistic, imo.

Here is an example of Ed Reed almost mirroring Hines Ward's play starting about the 10 second mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sl8y6W25wI

KBLover · 02-23-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BezO


	Players can't be represented accurately until other aspects of the game are fixed. Regarding C. Johnson. He does, or at least did break more tackles than his size & strength would dictate. But he didn't do it with strength. He did it with footwork & quickness. Defenders are often off balance & unsure when trying to tackle him. He gets you leaning, makes a cut and negates defender's strength. Barry Sanders, though stronger, did it the same way. You just never get a good hit on these type backs.

That's supposedly what ELU is supposed to do. If you're about wrapped up, doing a spin should let you slip out of it. SPM could be for spin as a change of direction move (evade the tackle to begin with and disrupt pursuit) and ELU could factor in for "spinning while tackled" to see if the back slipped out of the defender's grasp and able to do so while staying on his feet (as opposed to slipping out, stumbling for some yards, but still going to the ground).

Likewise JKM should do the leaning/off-balance you're talking about.

I think the problem is too many backs can do it. So many HBs are 85+ in these moves, often 90+ and have 90+ AGI to go with it. (8 years deep in my franchise and I think WAAAAAAAY too many players, period, have 95+ ACC, AGI). I know you say ratings aren't the core issue, and maybe they are not, but I contend with EVERYONE good at whatever, the truly greats don't stand out and no one really has a weakness. Too many HB can pull Barry Sanders moves and part of it is locomotion, etc, and part of it is the fact they have 95+ AGI, ACC, ELU, and JKM/SPM. If they had 75 JKM/SPM and 80's AGI/ACC/ELU, they wouldn't fake out defenders often and not succeed at being Barry Sanders.

I also think it's the same kind of issue with PMV vs FMV. The power moves are too good and finesse too weak. Same idea - Trucking works for just about everyone and being elusive doesn't work well enough.

Moves should be broken out into traits like they for pass rushers. That would at least bring some separation. If a back doesn't have "Utilizes Juke Move: Yes" then he can't do a juke no matter what his AGI or ELU. Those ratings can still help him make cuts and lower the chances of a successful tackle, but he can't break people's ankles.

For backs that do have the move, AGI/ACC would impact how sharp it is and how explosive after the move to get back to top speed.

CJ would have "Utilizes Truck Move: No" but have Juke and high AGI/ACC/ELU to make his Juke exceptionally nasty.

BezO · 02-23-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moneal2001


	they already have an elusiveness rating for those kinds of broken tackle animations. truck is for the other kind of broken tackle animations where the ball carrier runs through the tackler.

Those elusive moves are canned. My understanding is that they're based on point of contact. Until players have to gather, plant, lean, etc., you can't recreate the situations I'm talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	While I am all for adding as many hidden ratings as it takes to better differentiate players, I don't think it will help much as long as they continue to be inflated and directly subjective. I disagree that this current state of ratings is not the major cause of the often unrealistic player performance in gameplay. The reason is because I have read where many others claim that certain ratings adjustments have resulted in more realistic performance and player interactions.

Not sure about hidden ratings. I don't want any ratings hidden.

I've played with individual ratings. IMO, CBs tackle too well. But when you lower them, there are too many big runs. Because there's no contain AI and no lateral engaged player mobility, there's too much space on outside runs resulting in too many in 1 on 1 situations with RB/CB. If CBs tackled like their real life counterparts, there'd be too many big runs to the outside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	I also disagree that with better tuned ratings, that more accurately scale players to real life counterparts, that the play in the video would not be possible in Madden. Granted, there would need to be something done about not allowing User control to override ratings like PUR and MCV but I see plays similar to that in Madden now, that just don't playout as realistic due to players being able to cut/ zig-zag back and forth so unrealistically. However, if locomotion were more pronounced for all players, along with more accurately scaled ratings, that Ward zig-zag technique to stay just out of reach of a faster Hall, which is in Madden now, would playout more realistic, imo. Here is an example of Ed Reed almost mirroring Hines Ward's play starting about the 10 second mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sl8y6W25wI

Maybe I'm confused, but it seems like we're saying the same thing. The game needs realistic footwork animations for situations to play out more realistically.

I think where I differ from some of you is that I feel some of the ratings are boosted to attempt to get the game to play more realistically in the absence of those animations.

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