User Control and Online Play

[Kahuma]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Sometimes intent can get convoluted on an internet forum so let me say upfront, I am not trying to argue you down. That said, why would you throw a "fade" in the scenario you just described then? Anyway, I think I get the premise of what you are saying but I guess I just feel that there is not enough internal conflict for User control in Madden as well as lacking or missing external conflict. Madden 10 introduced that balance mechanic for upper and lower body control so it would be nice to see something like that applied to User controlled players leaving their feet to attempt catches/interceptions as well as whatever risk from potential contact.

To get into my decision making you'd have to be playing the game and understand my opponent. I was playing the updated Giants with the lowly Redskins. The Giants hole (if you can say that have any) would be their offensive line and/or linebackers.

Fred David is a matchup nightmare against linebackers to begin with (as most receiving tight ends are). So for obvious reasons Davis was my hot read and with Tuck/Paul at DE and Osi playing DT leaves me little time to look elsewere. Ontop of that Davis is very athletic and the stutter-step in the route creates enough seperation and the fact that I knew they would not user-defend gave me the clear advantage.

This is getting side-tracked. The whole point of the example was to point out that they were making excuses because they are not user defending. When all they had to do was switch and attempt to swat it (This does not mean he would have stopped it but they don't even attempt to try which, in my opinion, makes their arguement nothing but hearsay).

Let me add that I do not throw into coverage on purpose, I make reads and find the open target the best I can and that Davis was open as much as a 6'4 257-lb tight end is going to be in a 5-7 yard fade.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

For instance, why doesn't sprint have momentum represented for User control where there is a greater chance of loss of balance with too much jerky stick movement? Running full speed while attempting to make cuts and/or plays on the ball or another player should require timing and balance, not just make it harder turn.

I've gone back & forth with this internally. Do I want a player to stumble if a user sprints in one direction & tries to make an insane change of direction, or do I want to see gather & plant animations? I've settled on forcing the animations on the user. A couple of reasons:

1, I want to see the juke & spin buttons removed, replaced by a manual juke system. Essentially, a left, right, left move on the LS would be a jab left, jab right, go left move. Adding a 2K Baskeball type Isomotion modifier could be for more advanced jump cuts & such. So I wouldn't want players stumbling when users attempt this. Just animate the necessary gathers & plants and have different animations for quicker vs not so quick ball carriers.

2, I think the learning curve would be too steep if players lost their balance when we attempted cuts too sharp for a particular player or situation. Brandon Jacobs attempts those changes in direction. It just doesn't look as graceful as it does when Ray Rice does it.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I've gone back & forth with this internally. Do I want a player to stumble if a user sprints in one direction & tries to make an insane change of direction, or do I want to see gather & plant animations? I've settled on forcing the animations on the user. A couple of reasons: 1, I want to see the juke & spin buttons removed, replaced by a manual juke system. Essentially, a left, right, left move on the LS would be a jab left, jab right, go left move. Adding a 2K Baskeball type Isomotion modifier could be for more advanced jump cuts & such. So I wouldn't want players stumbling when users attempt this. Just animate the necessary gathers & plants and have different animations for quicker vs not so quick ball carriers. 2, I think the learning curve would be too steep if players lost their balance when we attempted cuts too sharp for a particular player or situation. Brandon Jacobs attempts those changes in direction. It just doesn't look as graceful as it does when Ray Rice does it.

Understood but couldn't stumbling or balance catching animations that deters Users from inappropriate excessively sharp stick movements be a good added differentiator? Not necessarily for big athletic players versus smaller ones but for positions like an Olineman/Dlineman recovering a fumble.

Also, that really doesn't address the issue I was referring to with User controlled players having an "speed burst" with no representation of making a play on the ball or another player more difficult. Most Users want something to happen when the press a button or move the stick and I want animations that make that "something" realistic relative to the scenario without diminishing User control. I hope you get what I am saying.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Understood but couldn't stumbling or balance catching animations that deters Users from inappropriate excessively sharp stick movements be a good added differentiator? Not necessarily for big athletic players versus smaller ones but for positions like an Olineman/Dlineman recovering a fumble.

I think it would be cool in extreme moderation. O-linemen are very aware of their limitations. They make sharp changes in direction, just takes more gathering.

A d-lineman, one on one in the open field with a RB, for example. Sure, occasionally a good move might put the d-lineman on the ground or have him tripping over himself. But more times than not he's left gathering himself, maybe taking an extra step or 2 because because he's not as nimble.

I'm all for rewarding percision stick movements by the user though. So if I know how to feather the LS, my players might move a little better than someone jerking the LS back & forth.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Also, that really doesn't address the issue I was referring to with User controlled players having an "speed burst" with no representation of making a play on the ball or another player more difficult. Most Users want something to happen when the press a button or move the stick and I want animations that make that "something" realistic relative to the scenario without diminishing User control. I hope you get what I am saying.

I get it and agree. I just don't want the "something" to be too drastic.

Maybe it's just semantics. When you say stumble & loss of balance, I'm seeing guys falling over themselves. Maybe your stumbling player is my player gathering himself.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I think it would be cool in extreme moderation. O-linemen are very aware of their limitations. They make sharp changes in direction, just takes more gathering. A d-lineman, one on one in the open field with a RB, for example. Sure, occasionally a good move might put the d-lineman on the ground or have him tripping over himself. But more times than not he's left gathering himself, maybe taking an extra step or 2 because because he's not as nimble. I'm all for rewarding percision stick movements by the user though. So if I know how to feather the LS, my players might move a little better than someone jerking the LS back & forth. I get it and agree. I just don't want the "something" to be too drastic. Maybe it's just semantics. When you say stumble & loss of balance, I'm seeing guys falling over themselves. Maybe your stumbling player is my player gathering himself.

I think that's right. I am not referring to players constantly falling down, although I do want that to be possible along with untouched injuries in applicable situations, but having to "gather"/recover.

[TNT713]

There's a reason I always blame the user. It's harder than blaming EA - because I am also a user. I often have to blame myself.

I've been user catching/defending religiously since Madden '04 because someone beat me, then exposed my weakness. He said I was very smart, made a ton of intelligent pre-snap reads and adjustments, but failed in the USER SKILLS department AFTER the snap. I have been tightening up my skills every since.

Now instead of pointing fingers at EA or my opponent, I ask myself what I could have done to improve my chances of executing better. Sometimes I have to sub, move, or control a guy - Sometimes I let the CPU do most of the work before I click on.

BUT I ALWAYS CLICK ON.

User skill is the difference between winning 6 out of 10 instead or 2 out of 10.

Later

[sb24]

I want user control to matter when you control him from the start. In your example Taz, seemed you were saying when you finally decided to not double the TE like he expected you to, you got a pick, playing as the LB the entire time. Thats awesome and the way it should be. Taking your LB and running where you feel he should go is due to (IMO) limited play books in madden. Thats great user skill to me and needs to be there.

What I dont like is when you have space to get a pass in there but a guy can switch quick and get a warp INT. I dont mind as much if its a Reed or Polamlu(sp?) making the play but when its low rated guys I hate it. When you make the right play call to beat a guys coverage and nobody corners are picking things off they wouldnt be able to grab, thats a problem. Most of that comes from the poor ball trajectory but thats a whole different story.

What made me put madden down was the lack of ability to stop what I know is coming or having to make absurd adjustments for something. Sometimes the perfect play call just gets beat plain and simple, and I like that. But it shouldnt happen as often as it does in madden. I also want the ratings to matter. Guys just draft fast players and switch to them throwing away any need for ratings since we know you get a boost for switching and pressing Y.

The game is supposed to be a chess match. When you have guys playing in 3 leagues, multiple games a night, they are going to know the game a lot better than the guys who only have time for their one league. That said those guys should also be that much better at making good play calls to beat the guy not just calling Cover 2 man all game and having great stick skills to beat you. I could go on but Im not.

Taz feel free to hit me up on the box to chat about this later if you want. I dont feel like typing anymore.

[bigfnjoe96]

The biggest issue I have is people who manually blitz. To me its a trash tatic. It's an exploit Plain & Simple. It's even more frustrating when people use schemes that allow the exploit to happen because they know the AI can't adjust to their advantage.





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