Can EA kill the NANO BLITZ?

[BezO]

I got this explaination when talking to devs about implementing tiered defensive play calling. The reason it's such an undertaking is that the blocking assignments & rushing assignments are tied together. The offense "knows" where rushers are coming from & blocks them. Nanos happen when you take a player out of the position a blocker recognizes, so the rusher gets ignored. For the offense to block all the combinations a tiered system would allow, or to block nanos, the blocking would have to be completely redone.

So yes, they can kill it, but I don't expect it until next gen, when hopefully, they rebuild the game... for real this time.

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

The player interaction in that game is FANTASTIC! Players can be engaged yet still work their way towards the QB. The edge rushing is especially beautiful.

They didn't quite have that lateral engaged mobility to account for what happens on outside runs, but there's no doubt in my mind they would have it by now.

C'mon EA! Why is your engaged player interaction closer to Tecmo than it is to 2K8?

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

...But I think the real problem in Madden is the ratings. I say that because..they are so high on both counts. I think that's what leads to the 100% win/loss situations. Whenever I see more "pushing" (i.e. "failures" in Madden's engine), it's from tired players on both sides that don't have super base ratings. Since I know fatigue lowers ratings, Madden pretty much makes both "fail" and that leads to neither the bounce-into-pattycake (because the OL doesn't win) nor the, "I touched you so you die" type stuff (since the DL didn't win), so defenders can basically then "fail their way into a sack", as far as the engine is concerned, by pushing the pocket, but to us it looks like more real football. It's like they've got it reversed. When BAD players engage, the insta-win/loss/pattycake should happen more because neither player has any technique. It's just two big guy bumping bulk against each other and if one gets lucky and bumps while the other guy isn't ready - insta-win/loss. But if two players both have technique, skill, intensity, and desire, that's when it gets nasty in the trenches. Both guys fighting back and forth, looking for small advantages to drive leverage but then the other guy adjusts and uses that advantage against the other guy, etc. That's closer to what APF2K8's animation system does, though I'd like to see even that taken to higher levels. I would not be completely happy with that in Madden. Yes, it's an improvement and would be glad to have it, but I would still be left wanting more. IMO, that's half the issue. The other half is how much a win/loss accounts for. A "win" could have been pushing the blocker back X distance based on the difference in blocker STR, AGI, PBS/PBF vs rusher STR, AGI, FMV/PMV. Not completely shedding him. The instant win/loss could have been limited only to extremely high BSH and/or very large gaps in STR. So it's if Suh vs Ye Olde Halfback, Suh should run him over if he can get any kind of edge at all. But if it's a Safety vs a HB, unless it's high-end, strong (as in powerful) safety, the HB should stand a fighting chance. Same for if it's Suh vs an average OG. The Guard should hold up...sorta well, but not be able to really contain Suh most times. Suh could get successive "wins" against the OG, driving him back while the OG would have a hard time getting any "wins" in return. However, if it was a double-team, both lineman get "counted as one" (say, 1.5 * the average of the two blockers) since both are exerting force against Suh. Then the situation would be reversed...at the cost of Suh occupying 2 blockers. I don't think it's the win/loss alone, it's that there's just one check. If it took multiple wins/losses, those wins/losses being determined by more ratings, and of course double-team blocking, it would play out better.

IMO, it's the animations. They don't have the animations to account for what 2K is doing. With the exception of the wee little bit of push, EA doesn't have engaged player mobility to account for any of what we see in that 2K vid. No matter the ratings, fatigue, multiple checks, etc. Madden players can't engage & move at the same time. And it kills many aspects of the game, especially the spacing.

I think it's a combination. They need to mo cap new animations AND include the AI to utilize them. Until then, we'll have a pretty *** version of Tecmo Bowl with more "features".

[TNT713]

Read the thread and in my normal style, I'm going to be the devils advocate and look no further than the user. There is something we can do starting with Personnel, Position, & Tempo. Most players that I've faced that use Nano blitzes will stop immediately whenever their opponent has a plan and executes it. They only continue to use nanos when their opponent is shaken by them.

Smoke alluded that there are things we can do as users to avoid nano-blitzes, but didn't mention what those things were. He did; however, state his opinion of the things he does as being 'band-aid counters.' Without knowing the specifics of his A-Gap protection schemes, I expect that his system of protections isn't very robust - making each adjustment seem like a gimmick that counters a gimmick.

I'm here to talk about legitimate football counters that have worked for me against nanos since Madden '03 and will continue to work well into the next decade..

While there may be dozens of academic discussions about the ethics of nanos, the programming issues with nanos, or the animation problems with nanos - the USER CAN DO NOTHING TO FIX THESE AREAS. As a matter of being practical there's only 3 things to remember as the user - Personnel, Position, Tempo.

First, let's eliminate the notion that blitzing the A-gap is somehow unethical then let's eliminate the notion that blocking an A-Gap blitz is EA's responsibility. These assumptions are necessary for a user to build his system of protections into something that has more than just one or two adjustments that work in some cases, but not in others...

Second, let's think like offensive coaches instead of video game players... In the NFL when defenses get middle pressure, the O-line and O-line coaches get together and make their adjustments on the sideline while the defensive players are trying to get the ball back. In Madden we can't adjust our offensive line when the defense is playing, we must make our adjustments after breaking the offensive huddle and before each snap.

Third, lets limit nanos only to A-Gap blitzes that reach the QB before he can execute a 3-step drop. If the QB can execute a 3-step drop from under center, he has time to run a Hall of Fame worthy West Coast offense that was specifically designed to beat blitzes by getting the ball out of the QB's hands quicker than the defense can get pressure.

Now lets get into the nitty-gritty...

Most, but not all, nanos are telegraphed... It takes a ton of players stacked up in the middle to attack the G-C-G in the middle of the field. If all of these players are occupied by 3 defenders a 4th defender near the middle can get thru cleanly unless the offense makes an adjustment.

Some other nanos are less telegraphed because they don't cover all three interior linemen, but rely on offensive players to miss a block to get quick pressure. Blocks get missed for a variety of reasons but it doesn't matter if it's a matchup, a whiff, or the line ignores a defender - blocking unblocked players is all that matters.

So what's a user to do? Use the concepts of personnel, position, and tempo to win the nano blitz battle.

If a user uses the personnel that can get the job done, and puts them in position where they can perform the job - they can buy time for the QB to do his job. For instance formations like I-Form, Near, and Far are commonly used West Coast formations that place a FB directly behind the QB. If the FB is blocking, even if a player gets thru the A-Gap - he still has someone to block him and it only costs one eligible receiver.

Another commonly used Personnel/Position method (not one I use much) is Shotgun formations. The QB is backed up so immediate pressure doesn't get to him immediately. The additional distance from the LoS buys the QB time to get a pass off.

For players that would rather combine Position/Tempo they can run plays that move the QB so any rush from the middle must travel farther to reach the QB because he's not setting up directly behind the center. Plays with 'stretch' action and rollout passes reposition the QB to buy time to make handoffs and throw passes away from pressure. Getting the ball out of the middle quickly defeats middle pressure.

Still other players combine Personnel/Tempo to time getting the ball to dangerous players and negate the middle rush. Bubble screens, speed outs, and even screen passes use timing to bait then take advantage of the rush.

Although there are only a handful of ways to generate middle pressure, there are a virtually unlimited number of ways to avoid falling victim to nano blitzes.

The best methods of beating nano-pressure utilize all three factors - as does every strategy. The more evenly the concepts are applied, the better the results. A strategy that is personnel heavy, won't be as good as one that accounts for personnel and position, and that won't be as good as one that also includes tempo.

Here are some simple keys to avoiding nano-blitzes:

- Move blockers closer to their assigned defender to increase the chances of a successful block.
- There are two A-Gaps, block backs left or right so they are in position to block the problem hole first.
- Moving the QB gives him time to handoff/throw, while giving blockers time to recover.
- Call formations that make adjusting protections easier.

Eventually users that manage their personnel, position, and tempo will survive and thrive on their very next snap while players who rely on EA to 'fix' nano blitzes must wait an entire year.

Apparently, the hardest part is mustering the desire to take control - But once we do a whole world of possibilities opens up. Like the NFL, if no adjustments are made - no change in the resulting quick sacks should be expected. It truly is up to us to use the tools available to us NOW without worrying about tools that won't be available until August (if at all).

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

While there may be dozens of academic discussions about the ethics of nanos, the programming issues with nanos, or the animation problems with nanos - the USER CAN DO NOTHING TO FIX THESE AREAS.

Doesn't mean it's not true - especially the animation/programming parts (I don't get into the ethics part), nor that they should not be brought up in the discussion.

Unless Madden is perfect, then a flaw in the game is always possible. Unless the User is perfect, then a flaw in the user is always possible. BOTH are possible. Not this either/or idea.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

First, let's eliminate the notion that blitzing the A-gap is somehow unethical then let's eliminate the notion that blocking an A-Gap blitz is EA's responsibility. These assumptions are necessary for a user to build his system of protections into something that has more than just one or two adjustments that work in some cases, but not in others...

If the blockers don't block inside-out (and they don't) that's EA's doing, not the user's.

Regardless of if the line is pinched or not (the "protection schemes" EA gives you) they still don't block from A-gap out.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Second, let's think like offensive coaches instead of video game players... In the NFL when defenses get middle pressure, the O-line and O-line coaches get together and make their adjustments on the sideline while the defensive players are trying to get the ball back. In Madden we can't adjust our offensive line when the defense is playing, we must make our adjustments after breaking the offensive huddle and before each snap.

You can't really adjust the offensive line protection pre-snap either, which is what I want. Saying "spread out", "pinch in", "go left/right" is not protection adjustment.

And that's why I don't think like a coach...because you CAN'T. And the "line calls" are a joke. Somehow, I don't think the NFL only has "oh hey, let's just all group together" as the way to protect the A-gaps.

I've said it before - give me REAL blocking schemes, help assignments, and all of that, and then I'll take responsibility for not adjusting as I should just like I do if I throw into quadruple coverage. Then I'll be able to really "think like a coach" and make the adjustments needed if my guys are just getting over-matched by A-gap pressure. Not just "pinch in" and hope my FB isn't a fool and somehow remembers fundamental football.

Sure, I leave blockers in...and watch them do what TreFactor mentioned. Again, they also don't block inside-out. Fullbacks who care about the OLB instead of the MLB about to kill the QB, for example.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Blocks get missed for a variety of reasons but it doesn't matter if it's a matchup, a whiff, or the line ignores a defender - blocking unblocked players is all that matters.

Actually, it does matter. If guys ignore defenders - that's already a problem that needs to be fixed. Why would a OL ignore a defender coming in the A-gaps? No, seriously...why? There's probably 6th graders that know not to leave the A-gap unblocked. Heck, I overheard a couple lineman from a local highschool talking about how they aren't ever supposed to ignore the A-gap. If 9th grade OL can understand it...why wouldn't a professional at the highest level not do it?

Now if they miss blocks (tried to get there but couldn't in time or the Mike and Jack did a cross stunt blitz and that got the OL out of position) or get the block but simply can't match up against the abilities of the rushers, that's a totally different thing. That's not a failure to respect pass blocking principles - that's just guys not executing/blitzers executing better. Completely different than not picking up a guy because he just ignored the rusher...in the A-gap...right in front of his face...

The whole "bring someone who isn't 'supposed to blitz' " bs is possible because of this. What is "not supposed to blitz"? That is not a football principle.

I don't disagree with the adjustments you mention, especially with the play calling and just burning it with a short passing game and screens and quick pitches, etc, to exploit the inside aggression (if you can't get 5- and 7-step drop time...stop doing 5- and 7-step drops...I think guys figure that out. Even against the CPU, you can figure that out). But, at least as I understand it, the point of the thread wasn't "why don't users adapt to the pressure/figure out how to block the A-Gaps", but what could/should be done to improve the whole dynamic of A-gap pass rushing to begin with.

But the fact you can make some adjustments doesn't mean that it isn't playing out wrong to begin with. And if devs are really reading this board as I've heard say happens, bringing up the actual flaws has merits.

[ryan36]

I certainly hope they do - it'd make things a lot better

- and the answer is YES they can. It's just code - they can always write better code

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

...Blocks get missed for a variety of reasons but it doesn't matter if it's a matchup, a whiff, or the line ignores a defender - blocking unblocked players is all that matters

Of course it matters. That's the whole point of a nano, getting pass rushers ignored.

But I'm still confused by you. The title of the post is "Can EA Kill the Nano Blitz?" As usual, instead of addressing the topic, you come in talking about the user, potentially derailling the entire thread. You're like an advanced troll. Instead of dropping in with a quick blurb to antagonize, you write essays, so no one calls you a troll.

If you want to talk about how users can counter nano blitzes, why not start your own thread?

[MiNiDiTkA]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

Here is a good example of how 2k8 represents the line interactions... so if one video game can do it, that means it is possible.

A few videos I made of 2K8 gameplay which includes line play.





Madden 12 tackling which also shows some line play

[chrome_305]

Is this issue something that EA will address this year? I'm not a football guru , but I do know when something isn't right and these nano blitz take away from the value of the game.The thing I dislike most is when someone on my O-line just lets a guy run past him so he can go double team a guy who is about to get pancaked anyway.

I said earlier that EA can't fix the nano blitz although I hope they prove me wrong with the new madden.

[Smoke6]

Quote: Originally Posted by chrome_305

Is this issue something that EA will address this year? I'm not a football guru , but I do know when something isn't right and these nano blitz take away from the value of the game.The thing I dislike most is when someone on my O-line just lets a guy run past him so he can go double team a guy who is about to get pancaked anyway. I said earlier that EA can't fix the nano blitz although I hope they prove me wrong with the new madden.

Yes, as I feel now, anything they try to improve upon the game with like the new 25 pass trajectories they're doing with NCAA would be negated because of this.

Some people have said that the "shake glitch" has been in madden for years, but its all new to me as it was mosts peoples base defensive scheme and the Nano was toned down a good bit but its still there.

Once its gone, its gonna be a game changer for a lot of people like as I can finally sit in the pocket more comfortably than I do now or in the past. But it has to go and hopefully it can be spoken upon from the CD guys on their impressions of this if it was brought up and addressed from their time there.

Good stuff fellas!