Madden Daily #226 DE Pass Rush - What needs fixing?

[seriousluboy83]

Don't forget the DT...This is how DT's should collapse the pocket...scroll down to the end of the page and you'll see the DT Pocket Collapse Video http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ds-olbs-3.html This video was made at the conclusion of the Madden 10 year...

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Well yeah, guys in my online franchise had 32 sacks a damn season, but that's because everyone was running the same stuff that always had those guys running free after the QB. Don't want that. I want legit pass rushing. I'm not saying you ran that stuff. What I am saying though is it is not difficult to get sacks in an unrealistic way and guys wouldn't rely on unrealistic ways to get it IF the game did it right to begin with. And again, it's not always about sacks, it's about putting fear in the QB and forcing bad decisions because of the rush. When people have to step up because two guys are up the field that fast it creates some mental anxiety. One other thing gibs, they need to let us blitz linebackers and defensive backfield personnel straight down, right, and left. If they do not have line stunts they at least need to give us something to create better stunts for pass rushing purposes.

hmmm i wonder what kind of button mapping would be needed for that - but ya stunts etc would be nice to see.

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by Illustrator76

Just saying what? What exactly does this contribute to the thread? I'd really like to know. You could be blitzing, moving guys around or doing who knows what. Providing more info would really help more instead of coming into every thread and blindly taking up for the game. At least the people who criticize Madden provide reasons why, it isn't too much to ask of you to do the same instead of you just coming in here and saying: "I'm averaging 17 sacks per year with Jabal Sheard in online franchise, just saying", and then leaving. We all know that you are in love with Madden, we get that, but coming in here and saying something like that when guys are working and taking time out to legitimately get hot button issues fixed really isn't doing much at all. Also, I look forward to the day when Madden plays like NFL or NBA 2K, what you choose to do if that ever happens is your own business. @sgibs, To add on to what others have said, not only do the 4-3 ends need to get more sacks in general, but they need to be more disruptive when they aren't getting "sacks". Someone mentioned the arm reaching out animation when a DE gets near the QB, and that would be a very good start to making things better. A prime example of that is the Lions very own Cliff Avril, he only had 11 sacks last year, but he also had 6 forced fumbles, which is incredible. The video below shows exactly how he did it. You will see that even though Avril didn't have 18 or 19 sacks on the season, he still greatly affected the outcome of plays by simply being disruptive and forcing bad/quick throws, or making the QB fumble the ball. The THREAT of a DE getting a sack is just as important as getting the sack itself, because it now forces the offense to keep backs in to block, or use TE's to chip guys before going out on their route. As it stands right now in Madden, I don't fear any 4-man pass rush enough to do anything at all about it, other than sit back, chill and throw when ready.

totally agree - i dont fear any either- unless a blitz is set up

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

I guess you could look at it that way. Guys with 90 + finesse have access to this just like guys with 90 + spec catch have certain animations. Guys with 80-89 have access to different catch animations, just like guys with 80's finesse would have access to different pass rush ect. I want to emphasize too, that this should happen for user a.i players. If I want to control Ed Reed or Ray Lewis and let Suggs come after you, this is the type of stuff I'm expecting from Suggs, while I drop into coverage. They need to do different for power move DE's though. 90 + power move only Edge rushers = Bull rush off the edge. They have that animation although I think it needs work but they have that animation. Have this animation, but have it happen deeper in the backfield so that the the user QB can at least step up if he's paying attention. Of course a good tackle is not gonna get done like this every time. It's a stop gap solution though and will make people afraid. 90 + finesse move only DE = up the field fast on keel with or past the QB as he takes his last step in a five or seven step drop. Same thing as above. Would be a great stop gap solution until they can add moves on with it. 90 + Power and Finesse = interchangeable. Sometimes bull rush, sometimes straight up the field on keel with QB or past him. With these guys we should rarely see any bouncing with the tackles, unless the tackles are 90+ PBF and PBS. Then just have something different for 80-89; 70-79; 60-69.

i really think the different animations thing would be cool to see on the defensive side of the ball

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

What is it with you guys who want to bring in the "winning/losing" concept? No one is discussing shortcomings in their game or the fact that they do or don't have "success". I never won less than 11 games in a season in my league, but who cares? That's not the issue. The fact is that this IS a big problem in the game and guys are letting people know exactly what's wrong and they are also proposing ways to fix it. Every time someone does that, you jump into the thread and litter it with comments about how people are pissed because they don't have success and that all they do is blame the game. That's exactly what TNT used to do, and now we see how that turned out. The people in this thread don't hate EA and they certainly don't hate Madden, otherwise, they wouldn't be discussing how to fix it. You want Madden to be good so badly that you will bash any comment you perceive as being negative because you don't want to be made aware of the real issues with this game. People are passionate about Madden and their hobby of playing football. There are no other NFL football games to play. There is a lot wrong with this one, these guys are discussing it and proposing solutions in a mature manner with intelligent arguments as to what currently works correctly and what doesn't. You came into the thread and basically wrote a snide comment insinuating that these guys are wrong and they are just blaming the game because you assumed they can't get pressure. Then you got upset when someone called you out on it and attempted to deflect it to him saying he had an "attitude". Maybe, you could have come into the thread and stated something more like this -- "Hey Guys, I can't really say I agree with what you are saying because I seem to get plenty of pressure with my guys. What exactly are you seeing that's wrong here? Is it sacks? Is it pressure? Is it how the DEs are getting to the QB?" That would have opened up the forum here for more intelligent discussion.

this is just coming from my point of view...

i think that its easy for someone like me to assume that the issues you (not just you but in general) have with the game are because you lose or they cause you to lose and thats why you have a issue with it.

After talking all these days im understanding a heck of a lot more that its more about it representing what you see and you dont really care about the outcome win or lose.

However I still think that a lot of the perceived "issues" in the game are more about a lack of education on how to play the game and or a preconceived idea on how the game is supposed to play. Also a ton of legacy issues get carried over from year to year. Nano blitz for one is something taht gets thrown around all the time. Nano blitzing doesnt exist as you can pick up any INTENDED pressure. Ya I know you think a nano blitz is something you set up but its something taht came from the tournament community way back in the day that was used to describe a blitz that couldnt be picked up (this was before slide protection existed)

Another one I hate is purple zones - people think they are broken (they are ONLY bc they dont go ALL the way to the sideline). People dont understand why tey dont defend corner routes when they are really a Curl to Flat route.

I also know that a lot of the issues people have with the game can easily be solved by making adjustments (im not talking PI or any of those or even the DE pass rush bc i totally get what you guys mean about it) I mean more about things like picking up pressure, or defending certain rotues in the game. I just recently played a "SIM" player in a game and i kid you not he ran the same defense all game and rushed only 2 guys for the majority of the game.

His response...."well i couldnt stop you and i knew i couldnt". He couldnt stop me bc he doesnt practice - he doesnt spend time to learn how to defend things. I will boldly say that im ASSUMING (let me know if im wrong lol prolly am) that most SIM guys dont spend time in practice mode like I do. I sit there and work on everyrhing - i look to defend everything and how to beat everything etc. Hours and hours and hours practing. way more then playing the game.

I forgot what this is about haha anyways i guess im just defending caseys standpoint bc i know what hes thinking is - why not just crash your line and shift your line...it works?

where i know you guys think - well why cant it just work without making adjustments etc.

i dunno - im trying to figure this all out hahahaha

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by hay99077

To this note, why do DE's acceleration ratings seem to be of no significance? If a DE with 99 acceleration fired off the ball in Madden as Freeney or D Ware do in real it would naturally create an arc and leave them meeting the QB at his drop step, which in turn would create a true "pocket" and eliminate the ability to drop back 20 yards on pass plays. In his video on youtube, Jared Allen explains what a true speed rush should look like. At around the 0:40 mark of the "Viking Jared Allen teaches The Speed Rush Training Exercise" video, Allen's mention of an explosive first step off the ball emphasizes the importance of the acceleration rating (or the importance it should have anyway) on the success of DE's and OLB's getting a good rush on the passer. Simply using the acceleration rating effectively for rushers and allowing the Freeney's, Allen's, and Ware's in the game to fire off the ball in a more realistic fashion seems like an easy "tweak" that could greatly improve the pass rush in M13 while we wait on an eventual overall.

acc is the most important to how i play with my pass rushing DE's - when i free a guy up thats hat im looking for - but with high acc you SHOULD see more 1v1 wins by the DE - with no blitz setup

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gotmadskillzson

This stalemate argument continues I see. This is basically the same problem with every problem that is wrong with Madden and the NCAA series. You have one side that have a problem and the other side who say they don't have the problem. Even with video evidence, you still have people say they don't have a problem with it because the STATS add up for them. Years go by, several community days go by and the basics of football that makes football, FOOTBALL don't get fixed. This stalemate has to come to an end. We all have to get on the same page here, test the game out the same way, with the same teams, no blitzing, no line shifting, no controlling any player, hell put it on coach mode. I am at the point now it is like I am talking to a wall. I constantly see the same threads made every year in Madden and NCAA forums addressing problems. Constantly see the same posters on both sides of the fence that they have always been on. And what comes out of it ? NOTHING Same stalemate that has been going on since 2008. Same problems......nothing fixed.

then contribute to the conversation at hand and dont put your 2 cents in.

Thats what im doing here - so if you want to help out like Illustrator, LBz, fn deal then please share your thoughts.

i hope u didnt post something on page 6 or 7 hahahah bc if u did i missed it

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

Finally, got around to looking at the video, and I thank the OP for the effort. It's a discussion that needs to be had, but I think the video was flawed. First of all, it was the User controlling the offense vs. the CPU. Well, this game has always played differently when the CPU is in control of one side of the ball. The CPU is always able to get pressure on me with 4, but when I get on defense and the CPU is on offense, it's another story. I want to see the USER on defense, manually controlling a safety, or LB, and see the results. It was user vs user. I controlled both sides. I didnt touch anything JUST TO SEE. That way there was NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCE on the play. Again, I understand the point of the vid, but you cannot just drop back and just stand there and then say that the rush isn't that bad and could be tuned a just bit when no actual game conditions were applied. I saw all kinds of room to step up, where I guarantee the CPU would have done so. And a couple of times I saw receivers running wide open without a throw. TIME was its not that far off - needs to be dropped about a full second - now how it happens - ya i see what everyones point is there. If you flip sides and let the CPU control the QB, you wouldn't have gotten any of those sacks and I doubt you would have seen more than 2 actual hurries. well ya thats because the computer gets the ball out so quick (kinda like how i said being so good at the game contributes the problem) That points to another flaw in the game that LBz has pointed out before. There are no quick wins by the defensive ends. You don't see a QB hit is back foot and have to instantly step up because the pocket is collapsing. If you don't blitz in a game situation when it's 3rd and long, then 9 times out of 10, the QB has time to get to at least his 4th read. agreed on this - i think in the video i said it as well Ideally, I'd like to see a vid (user on defense/CPU offense) of 3rd and long cutups. Just straight 4 man pass rush, and see how many times the ends get to the QB, or even how many times they're forced to get rid of the ball in under 3 seconds. But if you are going to do another one, at least user the defensive side of the ball (manually controlling a linebacker of safety). Also, call some zone plays. Again I understand the point of the vid, but it's useless if you aren't applying actual game situations.

i dont think applying game situations matters at all - u want to have the same situation everytime with no outside user influence - dont even let the computer control the QB. its not about if they get there or not (if the DE gets there in 1.5 seconds you can assume that it would have rushed the QB)