What is SIM Play Calling?

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by KOTC Wayne

So I guess since using a defense with DB's that could contain the toss sweeps and outside runs would be deemed un-sim, guess the next best thing to do is either regulate how many times someone can use those two runs our ban it all together? Now, I agree that using a defense with more DB's to stop a certain run is ridiculous but......... I also feel telling someone how many times they can do something or taking it away all together is just as ridiculous..... so where can a happy medium be reached on that example?

This is why I rarely have a problem with how folks play. The toss is broken and will be until they implement run fits & engaged player mobility. As is, we don't have the tools to stop the play the way it's done in the NFL. What Madden does instead is make it easier for OLBs to disengage & have CBs tackle better than they should. Tosses work & don't work for all the wrong reasons.

I think the medium is playing like minded folks. If you're the type of player that wants to win at all cost, taking advantage of the game's shortcomings, own it & play folks that feel the same. "Sim" heads should stick to playing themselves as well. For online folks, there needs to be a way to communicate this.

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

This is why I rarely have a problem with how folks play. The toss is broken and will be until they implement run fits & engaged player mobility. As is, we don't have the tools to stop the play the way it's done in the NFL. What Madden does instead is make it easier for OLBs to disengage & have CBs tackle better than they should. Tosses work & don't work for all the wrong reasons. I think the medium is playing like minded folks. If you're the type of player that wants to win at all cost, taking advantage of the game's shortcomings, own it & play folks that feel the same. "Sim" heads should stick to playing themselves as well. For online folks, there needs to be a way to communicate this.

Just for my own personal reference, how is the toss broken? I shut it down constantly out of a base defense. Only time I have a problem with it is when I'm set up to stop the inside run.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[kmart2180]

IMO playing Sim is playing the game the way you see it played on Sunday. I never seen Cam Newton throw back to back to back hailmary passes. Fatigue needs to have an effect on the outcome of things like this. And jumping on a wr taking him out of his path to user catch IMO is cheese because its unrealistic.

I can live with someone wanting to call 3 straight bombs (although i'm ehh about it) if they let the wr run his route and if he beats me, he beats me. But when its consistent user jumping on wr and moving him in a way that defys physics, that's when it becomes cheesy.Personally I wish offensively user catching was removed but I understand allot of people like to use it. But until they remove the unrealistic movement you can do while attempting a user catch, it will always look and be cheese in my book. I think better foot planting/locomotion could one day fix this problem.

Anything that breaks the CPU to me is not Sim. Having to resort into cheating the CPU is a sad thing. Currently there's a defensive formation (1-5-5) I think? that had the lbs moving left to right (unless that's the user doing it) but anyways it completely breaks the O-lines code in Madden. And when I come out in 4 or 5 wide and this works to get instant pressure its so cheesy. Evn when I go heavy run this formation disrupts alot of plays.

I'm sure there's many examples we could beak out but in the end, Sim to me is playing the game with respect and integrity of the game.Winning is a plus but if you have cheat the game to do so,then that's sad and unsim IMO.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by KOTC Wayne

So I guess since using a defense with DB's that could contain the toss sweeps and outside runs would be deemed un-sim, guess the next best thing to do is either regulate how many times someone can use those two runs our ban it all together? Now, I agree that using a defense with more DB's to stop a certain run is ridiculous but......... I also feel telling someone how many times they can do something or taking it away all together is just as ridiculous..... so where can a happy medium be reached on that example?

Yeah, Bezo beat me to the punch because the more I thought about this question, the more I realized how fundamentally FUBAR the football in Madden is.

What some people don't seem to realize is that "sim" is a standard, not a specific rule set, so someone trying to play realistic/sim would ideally exercise self discipline and avoid running plays that require unrealistic concepts to counter them. No specific rule set needed but the issue with this is, like Bezo is alluding to, so much of Madden is built on unrealistic concepts that this could easily lead to just not playing Madden period. lol

So I understand where "freestyle" gamers are coming from, by basically saying if we start pulling at the unrealistic string in a video game, even a simulation video game, then the whole thing can easily unravel and ruin the entire experience but there are places in the middle. It's about finding your fish bowl or that place in the middle with like minded gamers that best suit you.

That said, even with Madden's short comings, the difference in "sim" and "freestyle" play calling is still obvious. Sim play calling, like game play, is all about trying to achieve reasonable realism in a video game, opposed to freestyle play calling and game play being about doing what works as long as it can be stopped, with little to no accountability for the realistic limitations of a video game.

The thing is Madden is meant to be a NFL simulation video game but freestyle gamers choose to play call in an arcade video game manner. While I agree that the fact that arcade tactics are even effective in Madden is an indictment of the quality of the simulation which falls on EA/Tiburon, there is still onus on the gamer as well. Like Smoke states a lot, if gamers with no intention of playing reasonably realistic either didn't play simulations video games or played freestyle privately amongst themselves, this wouldn't be an issue. However, freestyle gamers seem heck bent on making playing simulation video games, in an arcade manner, the norm and many gaming companies seem complicit.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by CRMosier_LM

Just for my own personal reference, how is the toss broken? I shut it down constantly out of a base defense. Only time I have a problem with it is when I'm set up to stop the inside run. Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

It's broken because: 1)OLBs/DEs are not attempting to contain them since there are no contain assignments in the game; 2)There's no engaged player mobility in the game, so for an OLB/DE to defend the toss, he HAS to disengage.

In Madden, 2 things happen. Either the OLB disengages in time to make the play, or he doesn't & the RB takes the corner, leaving the CB to make the tackle.

This is not how tosses work in the NFL. Rarely do you see RBs just taking the corner. OLBs are good at containing, even when engaged. Successful toss plays are usually cut inside of the OLB that's doing his best to keep outside leverage. When RBs take the corner, it's usually because: 1)down block on the OLB by a WR; 2)great hook block by TE; 3)good move by RB to influnce contain defender inside.

I posted some Chris Johnson hightlights a while back but can't find the post. One of the fastest backs in the league & he rarely ran around the edge of the defense. Maybe I'll try to find another vid on youtube.

[Big FN Deal]

With what Bezo is saying, that's where the problem comes in with regulating your play calling and game play based on what can be stopped because the concepts in Madden can be so skewed sometimes.

Somebody mentioned that this is not Tecmo Bowl with one for one play calling, this is supposed to be simulation football with multiple NFL fundamental realistic concepts. To be absurd, if goal line defense was a counter to 4 WR verticals in a simulation football game, there would obviously be something flawed about that game. Likewise, with Madden missing or lacking so many fundamental football concepts like run fits, gap assignments, engaged player movement, physics representation, adaptive AI, penalties, inherent risk/reward, ratings discrepancy, etc, the process for how some plays develop and are executed, is flawed.

Considering those flaws in the video game, more onus is placed on gamers to achieve realistic game play, including play calling.

[Jarodd21]

That toss is just a little harder to stop on All-Pro(which is always the issue for online play) because of how slow your defenders react to the ball carrier.. On All-Madden that play can be contained using a bunch of different plays because your AI defenders react better..

[Big FN Deal]

For clarification, I was just using sweeps, outside runs and DB containment as a hypothetical, not as a direct example. There are obviously more ways to counter outside runs in Madden than putting multiple DBs on the field and I am not even sure that would actually work anyway. lol

That said, Bezo's point about outside runs and many plays in general being fundamentally flawed in Madden I completely agree with.