Madden Serenity

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan

I think this might make for a great read along those lines. Fifa is going for even more realism by adding error into the touch system to simulate realistic play. Magazine complains saying maybe Fifa team is trying to take it too far, and possibly alienating casual gamers. http://www.officialplaystationmagazi...oty-title-yet/ The irony of it. Read the first page. "You have to balance "realism and F-U-N." After reading this article I can see a bit of the "balancing act" that they have to consider. But I guess I still find myself in the "go for realism" camp. That's why Madden has lost it's luster to me. It's funny. When I watched the Madden Gameplay through the years vid, one thing struck me. From the PS2 days on, it's been pretty much the same Madden gameplay. It's like they found a signature gameplay formula and will not change it. After reading through a lot of these post talking about how guys want to play "Madden" I've really started to ask myself this question. "Do I want to play Madden, or what I think Madden should become?" Hmmm......

Reading that does spur my hopes for Cam Weber and others coming over from EA Canada. However, I would feel even more confident if they had moved the EA football devs down to EA Canada instead. I don't know who the person or persons that are responsible for "stepping on" the sim quality of the final Madden product at EA/Tiburon but I hope they have "moved on" to a better opportunity. They cut that stuff up so bad, it's too weak by the time it hits the streets but they are in Orlando not Miami. lol

Anyway, I had a quote from someone working on FIFA in my sig a while back but now I can't find it. It was about how FIFA devs believe their main commitment and focus should be on the hardcore soccer fans, not the casuals and it showed in this article, imo. This attitude is exactly what I am talking, don't be swayed by random opinions, if you are creating a sim, create the best, most realistic one you can.

Looks like I feel in love with the wrong football.

[jfsolo]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I believe so. People have preferences. There were more to the differences than 2K being more realistic. As much of a 2K5 head as I was, I didn't like things about it and could see those things deterring folks. I hated tapping for speed burst. I hated the running animations. Aside from a year or 2 when Madden had some real funky looking player models, I've always liked Madden's graphics more. The menus, etc. I think what's to be said about their approach to the game is they want to win & will use the tools given. If the best way to win is to abuse the AI, then so be it. If the AI couldn't be abused, they'd be good at whatever works. No swerving? They'd master the realistic footwork. As much as some of them practice, what's stopping them from being good at whatever EA releases? IMO, they make up for what the game doesn't provide. I don't think they'd nano, for example, if play calling were tiered and they could scheme blitzes like NFL D coordinators do. They practice more than most, would still know more about what works against what, and be successful. Instead of all that reblitzing & such, they'd be shading WRs, bringing SS in the box, etc. As much trash as sim heads talk, I'd put money on a trourney dude against them more times than not. Someone that knows the game better may have the initial advantage when this mystical, realistic Madden comes out. But I think things would balance & even tilt back to them in no time at all. And there'd still be a stick skill element, timing, etc. I don't care how much one knows about football, it would still be a video game. It would take practice to translate that knowledge.

I think getting beat, not because of exploits, but because of great execution and knowledge of schemes and playbooks, with some stick skill thown in, would motivate sim players into becoming super practice junkies as well.

I think that if the gameplay/A.I. were really, really on point, even those us that are Franchise junkies, would probably play a lot more H2H games.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

LBz,Taz and Road, while I agree with the general premise of what you guys are saying, I don't think it covers the point I am trying to make. Let's compare Madden to a movie or a DVD since they are all forms of consumer entertainment. If a movie/DVD is promoted as a comedy, there is obviously a chance I may not find it funny or some parts may be funnier than others but of course it will be promoted to be the funniest thing since knock-knock jokes. Now for all those unknowns, the one thing that should be a given is that the movie/DVD is intended, not just promoted, to be funny. So if when I finally get to watch the actual movie/DVD and it's a documentary about world wide starvation and poverty, even with some occasional funny moments done in good taste, reasonable people would presume promoting that as a comedy is misleading to say the least. Likewise for Madden being promoting to intend to be a bastion for NFL authenticity every year, has been misleading to say the least, after actually playing the final product, imo. So what I keep saying is, EA/Tiburon should either promote Madden according to what they intend the final product to be or everyone not being some how enriched through these misleading Madden promotions should stop defending EA/Tiburon from the understandably negative backlash. EA/Tiburon is like the "bad boy" with some gamers, not you guys, and no matter how they wrong or mislead the Madden consumer, it's just EA/Tiburon "handlin dey bidness". GTFOOH! LOL.

Actually Big all they have to do is rely on one of those previous definitions of sim and say they are being authentic. They could say, authenticity is about ratings and stats and not be lying. They might be being deceptive, but being deceptive is not lying. If a friend ask me to hang out and I say nahhh I'm going out of town. I live in Nashville and I go over to Hendersonville, which is about 15 mins away or I go over to Gallatin, while I'm still in TN technically I did go out of town. If my friend takes that to mean I'm going to Alabama, California, Florida, that's on him/her, not me. In such a case I was deceptive but I did not lie.

[MLBfanatic97]

Dear EA,
Hear my pleas.
I loved MVP Baseball.
I play 05 (I gots my PS2 )
But Madden has fallen off the deep end.
And I don't even play Madden very much.
If I know this, and the newest version of madden I have is Madden 11 on the Wii, then this has to set off some sign that you guys over there are messing up. Please make franchise mode deeper. Throw in the weekly preparation option that 2K5 had. Please use your ESPN license and include Boomer, and Jaws, and Wingo, the whole gang. Sportscenter and NFL Live anyone? Please update your stadium builder (and if they have sorry. Like i said. Madden 11 on the Wii).
Convince me to buy a PS3 only to have Madden.
Maybe you have all this stuff in 13.
And if you don't, please work on it for Madden 14.
All this complaining about Madden is making me want to become a video game designer/technician, or whatever you call it, just to go down to EA to fix Madden. And I'm 14.
Sincerely,
Future Head Game Designer for Madden

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by MLBfanatic97

Dear EA, Hear my pleas. I loved MVP Baseball. I play 05 (I gots my PS2 ) But Madden has fallen off the deep end. And I don't even play Madden very much. If I know this, and the newest version of madden I have is Madden 11 on the Wii, then this has to set off some sign that you guys over there are messing up. Please make franchise mode deeper. Throw in the weekly preparation option that 2K5 had. Please use your ESPN license and include Boomer, and Jaws, and Wingo, the whole gang. Sportscenter and NFL Live anyone? Please update your stadium builder (and if they have sorry. Like i said. Madden 11 on the Wii). Convince me to buy a PS3 only to have Madden. Maybe you have all this stuff in 13. And if you don't, please work on it for Madden 14. All this complaining about Madden is making me want to become a video game designer/technician, or whatever you call it, just to go down to EA to fix Madden. And I'm 14. Sincerely, Future Head Game Designer for Madden

hahaha, love the humor, welcome aboard.

Wingo is in the game, so, that will be a plus. We'll find out more next Tuesday.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Hmm, I don't know about that. I remember dropping back 20+ yards w/ the QB dating back to Madden '95 when I was just a pup. It could've only have been so realistic. More recently, I can't think of any last gen Madden that's more realistic than what we have now. You could say footwork and locomotion were better tuned then, but then I could raise you OL/DL interaction and while it's not to 2K's level, it's better than what we had last gen. I stick by the assertion that realism was never Madden's wheelhouse. I think it is now gearing towards realism and will continue to do so, but historically, it hasn't. It's always been about that fun/realism balance.

I'm not saying it was more realistic than now. I'm saying it was the beacon of realism in it's day. Madden made it's name by being the most realistic game available up until 2004 or so.

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

This is tough to address because this mystical Madden doesn't exist. It would have to be available & compared. I agree with the control element. Hell, I'm not that type of player & still want to control what goes on. But... Penalties are under player control. Sure, some of them would seem random, like holding on a kick return. But penalties can be controlled to some degree. Putting DBs in the best position curbs PI. Quicker passes can curb holding for lesser o-linemen. Both offsides & holding are about the snap count & pass rush success. Most bad snaps are not random. Centers make bad snaps trying to get to blocks quicker because they've been getting beat. QBs pull out early because they've been getting hit. Gurode hit Romo in the face because he's an idiot and would forget the count. I think tourney players would be better at timing routes than most. Just like IRL, it's just practice. No, they won't be able to turn an out into a seam by throwing early, but they can control the timing & hit a WR on his break. They can throw the WR open. Pump fakes, etc. Folks fell in love with rocket catching because it was available. No one was asking for this "feature" before it was discovered. And user catching doesn't go away because of route based passing. Nanos are just another product of using the tools provided. No one was requesting any of this. These methods were discovered. Folks loved Madden prior to their discovery. There's a realistic version of this in this mystical Madden. Overload blitzing. Zone blitzing. Delayed blitzes. They'd lab the hell out of those & still kick most folks a**. Zig zagging... same. Replace that will realistic footwork & they'd still juke defenders. And it would look prettier too. I think they have fun playing a video football game & competing. I don't believe that would change just because the game was more realistic. Players moving like boats? Relatively, sure. But I think 2K could've made quick players quicker. I also think you replace unrealistic fun with realistic fun. As it stands, you can't do a lot of moves in Madden. The juke button isn't a juke. It's a cut. With realistic footwork, you'd be able to juke. You could double jab & burst. Neither of these were represented in 2K. As it is, you can't spin OFF tackles. Imagine if you could. Looks like Madden is going with more realistic reactions this year, so... I don't remember a lot of dropped passes in 2K, but I'll concede. But it's not out of anyone's control. Like IRL, they'd just throw to their better WRs more. And they'd have to be better with their timing & location, which I'd bet they would be. Again, I think it's just trading an unrealistic element with a realistic but controllable one. Sure it was. It was the most realistic game out until 2K got its stride. Personally, I didn't like 2K more until 2K5. As for sales, there are other factors. Not sure when the first 2K dropped, but Madden had a big headstart. They also had a bigger marketing budget. Like most products, only a few customers actually look for the best. There's a reason companies put so much into marketing. I can tell you quite a few places that make a better burger for the same price as a big mac, but that doesn't stop McDonalds from selling more burgers than everyone else.

I don't doubt tourney players would still put in the time and be really good at Madden, but I think they would hit their boards and complain just as loudly as anyone else if a lot of this stuff was added to the game. I think about what TNT said about qb vision and how he hated it to the point he quit buying Madden and then wrote a huge letter to the developers explaining why it had to be removed.

I think you would find similar reactions from the tourney guys if the developers added pass interference and illegal contact for example. Sure, technically it's in their control to avoid the calls but it wouldn't allow them to play the game the way they want. They would soon be hitting their boards complaining like sim guys did about not having PI in the game.

Some things they would probably be ok with. I'm sure you're right about them finding realistic blitzes if 1/4 and 1/2 slides and double team blocking eliminated the ridiculous ones. But penalties, the pulling guys off routes and then running back to make receptions, the zig zag running type stuff they would soon be complaining the game isn't responsive enough and it needs to be changed back.

[Armor and Sword]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

I don't doubt tourney players would still put in the time and be really good at Madden, but I think they would hit their boards and complain just as loudly as anyone else if a lot of this stuff was added to the game. I think about what TNT said about qb vision and how he hated it to the point he quit buying Madden and then wrote a huge letter to the developers explaining why it had to be removed. I think you would find similar reactions from the tourney guys if the developers added pass interference and illegal contact for example. Sure, technically it's in their control to avoid the calls but it wouldn't allow them to play the game the way they want. They would soon be hitting their boards complaining like sim guys did about not having PI in the game. Some things they would probably be ok with. I'm sure you're right about them finding realistic blitzes if 1/4 and 1/2 slides and double team blocking eliminated the ridiculous ones. But penalties, the pulling guys off routes and then running back to make receptions, the zig zag running type stuff they would soon be complaining the game isn't responsive enough and it needs to be changed back.

This is where Tiburon has failed. Look at a game Like The Show. They had continued to evolve the control scheme. You have many different options for hitting and pitching as well as fielding, throwing, base running.

Every time they had added.....they have kept the other options. Some people love Zone Analog Hitting, some love timed....the point is if you have launched a new control feature and you have people who love it....then keep it as an option you can toggle on and off!!!

I remember the vision cone.....I did not like it at all. On Madden 2007...I had the option to toggle it off. Problem solved. But others who loved it....still had it.

Don't just give in to the lynch mob mentality. Try to stay flexible and keep evolving the game while keeping those that actually liked your new innovation or classic traditional control scheme happy.

It is a simple concept that other sports games have seemed to understand (NBA2K also has different slider pre-sets for different players, sim, default, casual)

What a concept!