The more videos I watch, the less I seem to see the impact of the Infinity engine

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

What else should have priority over the building blocks of the game of football? OL/DL makes everything work on the field. It's the basics of generating and preventing offense. Having that aspect of the game limited and stale impacts every single snap on both sides of the ball.

There is noting to debate here. Line play is the most important aspect of the game that needs to be replicated accurately.

Everything starts with the play in the trenches.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

It guarantees a fresh look at football. Backbreaker wasn't good overall but I enjoyed tackle alley and the unpredictable physics. 2k clearly did the line play better in their games and it's hard to deny it's more fun to run the ball in that game than any other. NFL Fever did read and lead style passing that was unique and fun. I have Tecmo Throwback on my console and I still like that game from time to time. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

I'm with you on the fact of having a fresh look, but then what happens when that novelty wears off?

We will still be here asking why can't we have a authentic game.

The only company that can truly give us a better authentic game is 2k, and this is because they already have a foundation in place.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL

There is noting to debate here. Line play is the most important aspect of the game that needs to be replicated accurately. Everything starts with the play in the trenches.

The problem I see happening with next year's version is that they will make some changes to line play, they won't be complete and then that will be all they do. Then we will hear all of the same nonsense about how hard the team worked on it and how dedicated they are and how they gave us what we asked for. Meanwhile, all of the other player movement will still be broken. It will be the same small, incremental, easy-fix crap we get every year. The line play is awful in Madden, but it's not the only thing that should have been fixed 5 years ago. If we still have the twitchy, silly looking player movement and interactions (like the infamous jump-tackle), the players moving in unison, etc. etc., the game still won't be very good. The fact that line play, player movement and interactions needs to be voted on in the "gamechangers" program is an embarrassment. The blueprint to make authentic football is available everywhere 24 hours a day. Simply use that - then take the next step once you've gotten it down.

[StrawHat Patriot]

Huh, freaking Google Chrome crashed and I lost a post, dammit.

Whatever.

Anyway, it's taken up to 2012 to have a Madden game in which players have to kind of look at the ball, to make a play on it. We've also should have had the infinity engine crap complete by now, since it should have been incorporated back in Madden 09 or M10.
I also hate how there isn't any kind of gameplanning feature in Madden. Like, I now what the Saints always do in my franchise mode, yet, whenever I play against them, I have to make a trillion pre-snap adjustments and stuff, none of which work in the end. Like, if I know they utilize a lot of deep slants to the sidelines, why can't I gameplan so that my zone defenders play deeper and spread out zones so that they get to the sidelines? More importantly, there are no defensive playbooks, that you really study like an offensive playbook, so why do we have them?

Anyway, to make this post a little more relevant to the thread, will there still be suction tackling in Madden 13 with the infinity engine? Because I've swore I have seen plays where the RB slowly stops and the tacklers bring him down, or when there's close contact, I see a super fast tackle animation.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I agree, which is why I'd advocate for a solution to it, not a band aid. Spend time on doing it right once, not multiple band aids.

I understand what you are saying but according to what info we have been given out of Tiburon, it seems to be clear that the prioritize for Madden are not being decided by what's best for football representation.

For one, AJ already stated that the engine(s) in M12 could accomplish what 2k or other football games could, it just needed time to be done. So that goes against the notion that a new physics engine was necessary in order to do OL/DL right. Also, even if making the argument that adding Infinity allows for an even more realistic football fundamental OL/DL going forward, the fact that they said Infinity works with the existing animations, means that it's the animations that matter most. So to KB points, it would seem more paramount for replicating football to work on the Ol/DL animations and all the animations that Infinity would be powering the physics for before actually adding the Infinity engine.

All that said, I thought it was made clear many pages ago that the priority for creating Madden seems to clearly be more about pushing units to the masses than making the most NFL football realistic simulation video game possible. Even though KB is spot on about what should have been addressed first in a simulation football video game, i am pretty sure the powers that be dictated that there had to be something in M13 to market to the masses. Considering that, I think the devs deserve credit for going with the Infinity engine instead of some other gimmick without any fundamental football value.

I think these may be the type of things that those who visit Tiburon understand but can't divulge due to the NDA. Sure OL/DL is more important for replicating football but the devs are mandated to supply that gimmick for the masses that marketing can hype for E3 and beyond which separates M13 from M12 so people are compel to run out to get the upgrade. Improved OL/DL wouldn't cut the mustard so Weber and crew likely decided to go with Infinity, which given their dilemma for something both football fundamental to be true to their espoused NFL authentic vision and meets the mandate to provide something EA can market to the masses, was probably the best choice available.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I think these may be the type of things that those who visit Tiburon understand but can't divulge due to the NDA. Sure OL/DL is more important for replicating football but the devs are mandated to supply that gimmick for the masses that marketing can hype for E3 and beyond which separates M13 from M12 so people are compel to run out to get the upgrade. Improved OL/DL wouldn't cut the mustard so Weber and crew likely decided to go with Infinity, which given their dilemma for something both football fundamental to be true to their espoused NFL authentic vision and meets the mandate to provide something EA can market to the masses, was probably the best choice available.

You are probably right, though I find it interesting that is supposedly the focus for M14?

So, they can find a "marketable" solution (still don't understand why ultra-realistic NFL football would not be "marketable") for M14, but not M13?

If it's not "good enough to cut muster", so to speak, for M13 - why would it be good enough for M14? Logic would seem to dictate that this doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it be the same "problem"?

It just makes me wonder if the franchise is for me. I know you didn't say that in the post, just putting my internal debate in writing here. If the direction is first "most marketable" and not the belief that "more realistic is also more marketable" that's fine and I wish EA success.

It might just be a ride I want off of.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

You are probably right, though I find it interesting that is supposedly the focus for M14? So, they can find a "marketable" solution (still don't understand why ultra-realistic NFL football would not be "marketable") for M14, but not M13? If it's not "good enough to cut muster", so to speak, for M13 - why would it be good enough for M14? Logic would seem to dictate that this doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it be the same "problem"? It just makes me wonder if the franchise is for me. I know you didn't say that in the post, just putting my internal debate in writing here. If the direction is first "most marketable" and not the belief that "more realistic is also more marketable" that's fine and I wish EA success. It might just be a ride I want off of.

Oh it's "cut muster" not mustard, my bad I never knew. Should have Googled it first, lol.

Anyway, yeah I hear you KB, I think many are coming to a similar crossroads, while still others, not me, have seen the writing on the wall long before now. I accept that Madden is "Madden" and buy it every year since it's the only current NFL choice but that doesn't stop me from venting my frustration about it. I don't thnk it's all doom and gloom though because of two things.

One, this Madden dev team may prove to be better at making lemonade out of the lemons they are given than previous next-gen Madden dev teams were. Two, heading into 2014 and the new consoles, the NFL exclusive may no longer exist or at least not be so costly as to mandate what features go into the game based on optimal ROI of that license rather than replicating optimal NFL football.

So to your point about M14, that's why I stated earlier I don't see whatever improvements they make to Infinity next year, as being the E3 announcement for M14. They were able to upgrade passing, defense, etc, this year but they still had to have that new E3 hype feature. So I expect that OL/DL and likely player movement in general will be addressed by this team for M14 because I think Weber and crew are sincere about wanting an authentic NFL simulation video game. However, that doesn't change the premise that they still have to somehow meet the mandate set by EA, due to the cost of the exclusive, imo, that they provide something that marketing agrees sells to the masses as well. I think that has been the challenge of every Madden dev team this gen but I hope this team is more adept at meeting it.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

You are probably right, though I find it interesting that is supposedly the focus for M14? So, they can find a "marketable" solution (still don't understand why ultra-realistic NFL football would not be "marketable") for M14, but not M13? If it's not "good enough to cut muster", so to speak, for M13 - why would it be good enough for M14? Logic would seem to dictate that this doesn't make sense. Wouldn't it be the same "problem"? It just makes me wonder if the franchise is for me. I know you didn't say that in the post, just putting my internal debate in writing here. If the direction is first "most marketable" and not the belief that "more realistic is also more marketable" that's fine and I wish EA success. It might just be a ride I want off of.

Yep - they've already shown long ago that creating a realistic simulation is not their intent and/or they aren't capable. It's really a little bit of both. Time to move on and hope we get competition back.