Personnel and why it does not factor into Madden well enough

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

You would say run blocking was well implemented?

I hope not. From what I'm looking at the run blocking that they reworked in Madden 11 is pretty average at best. I was going to comment in your thread mcgee, then I said why bother. EA already knows this. They've heard it over 1,000 times and even though you were spot on it just feels like we are kicking against bricks and breaking our feet in the process. Here are my 14 steps to improving Madden, MOST of which are simple and involve defense.

Improving Madden in 14Simple Steps

Rather than do a full review and keep rehearsing the same points I would rather discuss how to improve the game and a few things that I think can significantly improve the experience. I’m not going to go through OL vs DL because this just seems to be a universal and well known fact that the game is very bad in that area. I might hint at it though.

1) Put all players on a turning radius/circle. Have the turning radius tied to speed agility and acceleration. How does this improve the game? With the radius tied to those three attributes you will have variable circles. Secondly, the faster a person is running the more difficult it will be to make quick turns, thus eliminating zig-zagging. It also helps the defense with line stunts and line linebacker stunts.


2) Get elite secondary players to drive on passes. Now this should not be universal but you cannot have a game where every CB constantly gives up Outs and Curl. There has to be some players that make you afraid to throw this route. Second, your Safety play is also the culprit here. Any route from the interior by a Tight End or slot receiver to the perimeter, the Safeties do not drive on the offensive player. Their coverage technique is terrible.



3) Fixing Man Align. Is this going to always be a problem in this game? Man align is still a huge problem, especially on cover 0 blitzes. There should never be a play where a person is covering someone on the other side of the field even if you flip the blitz. Someone has to move.


4) Defensive Playbooks. There is not enough here. I think every blitz in the game should have its bluff. Every blitz should follow the Sugar paradigm. So for instance, the DBL Safety blitz should have a zone version of that blitz with both Safeties pretending to attack but have one drop to the middle 1/3. FS Middle 3 should actually be the play. Just have the SS drop with the FS’s pre-snap movement but drop to the middle 1/3 on the snap. Then there should be a complete bluff maybe quarters. Then they could have a play with a slot blitz ect. There is not enough in the defensive playbooks to build things off of to keep offensive players confused.


5) Defense should focus on having the following in every basic coverage. A) Primary Support/Force Player; b) Cutback Player; c) Secondary Support/Play action responsibility; d) Spiller; f) chase/boot/reverse player. Your basic coverages should have these fundamentals.


6) Defense should focus on IF/THEN. The defense should focus on IF/THEN rather than gimmicks like run and pass commit. If it is run then your defenders carry out #5 above. IF it is pass they drop to their zone or they execute their man coverage responsibility. We cannot continue to have defenders in zone coverage start dropping back on run plays, unless they are draws of course.


7) Apply basic automatic DB shading and route coverage principles to Cover 1. You have this going on with 2 Man under. The DB’s just take away everything inside with 2 man under. Well if you can do that for 2 Man Under why not have field and boundary corner play different techniques with Cover 1? The field corner plays outside technique expecting inside help from the FS or SS depending on who has deep middle responsibility and the boundary corner is basically on his own using the sideline as the extra defender. This should be built into the coverage. The default for cover 0 should be inside shade and play the inside routes. Going back to #4 above, this should not be so easy to read if there are plays that build upon one another.


8) Bring back the fake rush zones. Previous Madden games had something right in them. They had fake rush zones where defenders on the line would take a rush step at a lineman and influence him then drop into zone coverage. If you have one of the older game one play I can remember is nickel normal SS blitz. You cannot just have offensive linemen auto turning and running to go block somebody. In order for zone blitzes to be more effective we need the fake rush zones.


9) Biggest difficulty of all for Madden series. Untether the defense and the offense. Untether the Defensive line from the offensive line and untether the players in coverage from the WR’s, TE’s ect running routes.


10) Overall Playbook wise Focus on BASE and Compliments to everything. What I mean here is that every defensive front should have the basics. If my game plan for a week in CC is to run 3-4 Odd, but then I don’t have over the top cover 3 then that means I have to use one of the other fronts. This should not be. Every front should have every basic coverage. Not only that, why is it that 3-4 Over is the only 3-4 that has Sting Pinch Zone? Why does the Predator have Pinch but not Sting Pinch Zone? Same for Even ect. We need defensive plays we can build a scheme off of. The same looks for blitz, zone blitz, coverage, cover 1. I was discussing this with Tombsong. EA did great with the Sugar plays for the most part. Sugar Blitz, Sugar 3 Seam, Sugar Bluff 3. The only downfall is Sugar 2 Bluff is not in the same playbook and there is no cover 1 play with the same ideas. This is what I mean by being able to build a scheme. The same thing holds true for offense. Each team should have their staple run that is a part of just about every formation; at least under center formations anyway. I’ll just use the Ravens. NFL Game Pass was the worst thing that could happen to EA. When you look at the coaches tape there and look at what happens in Madden, the senseless weekly roster updates ect., you just shake your head. Anyways, there is not an under center formation where the Ravens do not run their Inside Cutback Zone staple run. In Madden, they don’t even have it in their playbook. When I say they do not have it what I mean is play execution. The NAME is there (although not in every formation) the execution of the play is terrible.


11) Zone Coverage Logic. I have two things in mind here when I talk about zone coverage logic. First, I want to talk about the Safety play in two deep zone and second, the buzz zone play. The Safety play in 2 Deep zone needs to be based on the Safeties read of #1 and #2 to his side of the field. He shouldn’t just drop to the deep half. He must read #1 and #2. If #2 releases to the flat then he has to get depth and width and get in a position to defend #1. If #2 releases inside then the Safety has to look at #1 but if #1 does not release vertical then he can look for crossing routes or the post. He can’t just run out of there. If both #1 and #2 go vertical then that’s when he gets out of there and defends the deepest WR. With the Buzz zones we need to be able to make a game plan adjustment. We need to be able to tell out defenders to hold on the deepest route from curl to flat rather than them just dropping off the curl. I’ll give up the flat all day because I believe my guys are good tacklers and will stop the short stuff in front of them. But this business of coming off of the deeper route needs to stop especially when you have flat zones in the same damn play.


12) Offensive Audibling, hot routes should not control defensive alignment/Shifting defensive line should not alter prowling players. This was not a problem before this year. I think it is very backwards for them to make your prowling defenders reset on defense just because someone audibles or hot routes on offense. Likewise, I think it is a travesty that prowling players reset because you shift your defensive line or linebackers. They left the defense severely handicapped this year. Yeah it’s a process but the drudgery of the process has become overbearing.


13) Have the traits differentiate players more. Right now the only difference between defensive teams is one causes more fumbles than another. There is no emphasis on technique. Add more traits and make sure they actually work. There is no point of me spending 10,000 points in CC on a bull rush trait and my guy does not every perform the move. Some defensive traits to add would be: First Step; Edge Setter; Route Reader. First step is for defenders that tend to get a good jump on the football. This is basically jump the snap for individual defenders rather than an entire defense. Settings could include Aggressive, Ideal. Aggressive jump the snap could lead to a great deal of offside penalties due to QB Cadence. Ideal jump the snap results in the defender getting a good jump, and never jumping off sides. Should be an expensive trait at the minimum 25k in CC. Edge Setter can have a couple of settings: Ideal and Aggressive. The person with Ideal Edge setting would be the one who sets the edge well on every play and forces the run back inside. The person with aggressive Edge Setting would run up the field creating an underneath cut lane for the HB. The player with no edge setting would basically get walled off inside creating an outside running lane. Route Reader would be for CB’s and Safety personnel and it would govern a couple of things. First it would govern the CB’s read of the route and second it would govern their break on the route. Aggressive Route reader would have the CB taking a lot of chances and biting on double moves. Ideal would have the CB mirror and blanket five routes of your choosing to perfection. Elite would have the CB mirror everything to perfection. Now this does not mean that he cannot get beat deep when in cover 1 or cover 0. The WR's speed and route running has to come into play. If the WR has 97 speed and 90+ route running and the CB only has 94 speed 99 man coverage and Elite Route Reading, he still can get beat over the top on a press and run. But if he has a cushion he should not be getting beat over the top. That said, what it does mean is that he will blanket outs, curls, slants and what not. This should be a very expensive trait in CC. I'm going to say like 75k. Out of the box only one CB should have it set on elite and that is Revis. Only a select few should have it set to ideal, some should have aggressive and many should have nothing. I hate to put this in Donny Moore's hands though.


14) Have my cpu defender teammates play at full speed and at their full potential without me controlling them. This has been a big problem in most games.

Those are my 14 steps that I think can easily make the experience much better.

[LBzrule]

Take a look at these four shots I captured from Ravens @ Redskins. This is the Ravens Staple run play that they have ran EVERY GAME. Yet it is not in Madden. They've been running this staple run for the past two seasons. It is an inside zone stretch/cutback. Madden's Inside zone might as well be Iso's.

Observations:

Image 1

1) Movement. Notice the entire line and FB all step to the left. Also the man playing outside of the RT is allowed a clean release. In this case that is Ryan Kerrigan. But here is where the difference is in real life, Kerrigan has back side responsibility so he cannot just run in and chase the back down because if he overpursues it there is a big problem. In Madden this player simply runs down the line and tackles the HB. This has to stop. Guys need to play with responsibilities in mind. See 14 simple ways to Improve Madden.

Image 2

2) Notice how the OL is quick combo and releasing to single blocking. The inside man on the back side is about to get cut blocked by the RT Osemele here.

Image 3

3) The cut block forces Kerrigan to change his angle. The back is reading front side to middle. Leach gets a clean alley to the 2nd level and on this play completely destroys the Safety Reed Doughty. Did you hear that EA? A FB that knows what the hell he is doing, not one who simply runs around missing blocks or waiting to block somebody. Get your a$$ down hill and clear something out.

Image 4

4) The cut block by the RT Osemele and the Combo and quick release by the RG and Center allows Rice to cut it back. Here is where untethering as well as turn radius come into play. When thinking about Madden this cutback to the middle, should result in an auto-juke even if I'm just using the left stick. I can't start out following Leach and then just turn back to the middle without some cut/juke animation. Get rid of zig zagging please.

Also speaking of compliments in the playbook, notice in the last two images Flacco is carrying out Boot action Away from the run. What that should tell EA is the Ravens have Boot action plays that LOOK EXACTLY like this run play. And of course they do. EA is making this more difficult than it needs to be. I'm not buying all of the BS excuses that we get fed every year. The suits need to step their a$$es out of the damn way and let people make a damn football game.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

You would say run blocking was well implemented?

Maybe not well implemented, as that can be up to interpetation, but in Madden 11, I thought it was much improved.

Doubt if there has been anything beyond that, though and I would agree, it's not where it should be.

I guess my point was it was an improvement from past Maddens, 08, 09 an 10.

And now, going over all types of run blocking in my head, the zone scheme is sorely lacking as among other schemes.

Well implemented it is not, admittedly.

Also, great post LBz, but I'm feeling like you these days, these suggestions are not priority to the powers to be.

[LBzrule]

In the images above you can see what I talked about concerning the Edge Setting trait. Notice the outside is sealed here. Rice could follow Leach and most likely will not get much because of Fletcher being unblocked. The better choice is to cut back off of C/G quick combo as Yanda will peel and pick up that secondary player. Kerrigan is the Chase/Boot/Reverse player and he stays disciplined. He cannot just run down the line of scrimmage and tackle Rice like guys do in Madden. Had he done that, a smart coordinator would set this up again and have his QB run a boot with nothing but green. He has to stay disciplined and keep the back side protected.

The front side gets walled off. There is your force player and there is the Edge Setting Trait at work.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Those are my 14 steps that I think can easily make the experience much better.

Snipped for length.


Anyone else notice that just about all of these relate to defense? And people wonder why the game are typically high scoring? And it's no wonder my fight with every year I get this game it to make it "more defensive" to try to simulate a lot of those things with sliders.

I think driving on passes could be tied to "Plays the Ball" or maybe a new "Drives Passes" trait. That way, it can tie into DPP possibilities as well. Maybe a guy gets a pick and gets confident and now attacks routes all day long. A guy gets burnt and now plays passively. Things like that.

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

10) Overall Playbook wise Focus on BASE and Compliments to everything. What I mean here is that every defensive front should have the basics. If my game plan for a week in CC is to run 3-4 Odd, but then I don’t have over the top cover 3 then that means I have to use one of the other fronts. This should not be. Every front should have every basic coverage. Not only that, why is it that 3-4 Over is the only 3-4 that has Sting Pinch Zone? Why does the Predator have Pinch but not Sting Pinch Zone? Same for Even ect. We need defensive plays we can build a scheme off of. The same looks for blitz, zone blitz, coverage, cover 1. I was discussing this with Tombsong. EA did great with the Sugar plays for the most part. Sugar Blitz, Sugar 3 Seam, Sugar Bluff 3. The only downfall is Sugar 2 Bluff is not in the same playbook and there is no cover 1 play with the same ideas. This is what I mean by being able to build a scheme. The same thing holds true for offense. Each team should have their staple run that is a part of just about every formation; at least under center formations anyway. I’ll just use the Ravens. NFL Game Pass was the worst thing that could happen to EA. When you look at the coaches tape there and look at what happens in Madden, the senseless weekly roster updates ect., you just shake your head. Anyways, there is not an under center formation where the Ravens do not run their Inside Cutback Zone staple run. In Madden, they don’t even have it in their playbook. When I say they do not have it what I mean is play execution. The NAME is there (although not in every formation) the execution of the play is terrible.

I know EA wouldn't do what I am about to propose for the sake of simplicity, but would it not be better if defensive playcalling styles. What I mean, is something like 2k's old system. In my opinion it would work something like: Personnel (4-3, 3-4, Nickel. You major packages if you will) followed by the scheme (over, under, predator, 3-3-5, or subpackages if you will), thirdly you choose your coverage (cover 0, cover 1, cover 2, cover 3, cover 4 etc) followed by the actual play which would have various blitz schemes and stunts.

In my opinion, it would make defensive playcalling simpler (after a few hours of practice mind you) as well as more immersing. You described the issues with the current system perfectly. This also ties into my idea of the game being half-done. They add in plays, but do not add in complete schemes or sets.

I might be taking a step back in my proposal but it would seem that type of system would work over scrambling through pages of plays to find the coverage type and play you are looking for.

Also, I would add a fifteenth step, which is to look into making manual substitutions quicker and simpler.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaiser Wilhelm

I know EA wouldn't do what I am about to propose for the sake of simplicity, but would it not be better if defensive playcalling styles. What I mean, is something like 2k's old system. In my opinion it would work something like: Personnel (4-3, 3-4, Nickel. You major packages if you will) followed by the scheme (over, under, predator, 3-3-5, or subpackages if you will), thirdly you choose your coverage (cover 0, cover 1, cover 2, cover 3, cover 4 etc) followed by the actual play which would have various blitz schemes and stunts. In my opinion, it would make defensive playcalling simpler (after a few hours of practice mind you) as well as more immersing. You described the issues with the current system perfectly. This also ties into my idea of the game being half-done. They add in plays, but do not add in complete schemes or sets. I might be taking a step back in my proposal but it would seem that type of system would work over scrambling through pages of plays to find the coverage type and play you are looking for. Also, I would add a fifteenth step, which is to look into making manual substitutions quicker and simpler.

Kaiser, are you referring to tiered-play calling?

That would be the cats meow, Ian once told us that was an expensive overhaul and would take a long time to do.

Maybe with more people on the team, this can now be accomplished, if that is what you are referring to.

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Kaiser, are you referring to tiered-play calling? That would be the cats meow, Ian once told us that was an expensive overhaul and would take a long time to do. Maybe with more people on the team, this can now be accomplished, if that is what you are referring to.

That may be what I am referring to. I'm not sure what you mean by it. I remember Sony and 2k used to use a system like I am referring to.

Example: I want a Cover 3 zone blitz out of my base 4-3 stack package. I choose a 4-3. Then I choose the Stack package. Then I choose Cover 3. Then I choose my specific zone blitz.

I hope I am being clearer in what I am saying. I believe it would do wonders on the defensive side of the ball. Not so sure about the offensive side of the ball.

Also, regarding improving defense, I think the AI QB needs to be able to make better decisions as well. In almost every All-Madden game I have upwards of 6-7 dropped interceptions on top of my 3 or so interceptions. The game needs more passes that hit the turf/grass.