Finesse Rush vs Power Rush [video]

[baller7345]

I thought about putting this in the strategy section but its not really a strategy so much that it is a simple breakdown of the differences between power rushers and finesse rushers.

Power Rushers are Clay Mathews and Nick Perry while the finesse rushers are Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis. You'll notice one weird thing EA decided to do early on when you watch the finesse rushers make use of what will look like a TE Stunt. For some reason EA decided that TE stunts are finesse pass rush moves or something. The spin moves shown in the first clip are all cpu, I managed to have a few other runs where I would spin while usering Dwight but nothing was as fluid nor as pretty at that sequence.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by baller7345

I thought about putting this in the strategy section but its not really a strategy so much that it is a simple breakdown of the differences between power rushers and finesse rushers. Power Rushers are Clay Mathews and Nick Perry while the finesse rushers are Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis. You'll notice one weird thing EA decided to do early on when you watch the finesse rushers make use of what will look like a TE Stunt. For some reason EA decided that TE stunts are finesse pass rush moves or something. The spin moves shown in the first clip are all cpu, I managed to have a few other runs where I would spin while usering Dwight but nothing was as fluid nor as pretty at that sequence.

None of that was overly terrible. But like you said, it doesn't happen when you are playing with those teams. I've pretty much given up on defense in this game and resigned myself to trying to score 50 points every game. That's what it is going to take to win in 2 player games IMO, especially when your opponent knows what they are doing offensively. If you bump into someone who knows what they are doing offensively and you do to, then the first one to 50 probably wins.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

None of that was overly terrible. But like you said, it doesn't happen when you are playing with those teams. I've pretty much given up on defense in this game and resigned myself to trying to score 50 points every game. That's what it is going to take to win in 2 player games IMO, especially when your opponent knows what they are doing offensively. If you bump into someone who knows what they are doing offensively and you do to, then the first one to 50 probably wins.

You can user rush and get consistent and fast pressure with an elite lineman (even in the RE/ROLB) position however you then have to give up coverage and when you can't trust Cover 4 to handle 4 verticals on a consistent basis you run into more problems. I know people in a sim league over at Madden-School (its where most of my breakdowns end up going) who do nothing but user a lineman (he personally users Geno Atkins) and he broke the sack record in the first year that league was in existence and has had 3 years of being ranked in the top 5 in scoring defense (under 20 a game).

Personally I haven't given up over 20 a game in over 3 years of playing ranked games. I don't really bother with ranked anymore but I give up around 17 points a game playing in online leagues and friend list games using a Dick Lebeau style defense. It does require understanding how to make real life concepts work in the strange Madden world but defense is definitely possible. I won a free copy of the game going against all the freestyle people that live around my area and I shut out half my opponents.

The manual rush is best used when you have them backed up in 3rd and long and allowing you to unleash a 3 man rush while dropping 8. You need to make sure your edge rushers have enough space, and it helps to take the guard on your rush side out of the equation if possible (espeically if you plan on using the finesse TE Stunt). It can work, its the cpu pass rush that causes the most head scratching.

I've done multiple tests using a 4 man rush and recording the times (4 Man Pass Rush) and there are definitely formations that get faster pressure. The other issue is that the LE/LOLB position is broken, they don't have to use their pass rushing moves to disengage from their blocker unless you slide protect aggressive which is why they tend to get all the sacks.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by baller7345

The other issue is that the LE/LOLB position is broken, they don't have to use their pass rushing moves to disengage from their blocker unless you slide protect aggressive which is why they tend to get all the sacks.

Interesting!

What does "aggressive" protection actually do...?

I can't think of it real football terms with my limited football knowledge, so I'm hoping you can help.

Your write-ups and breakdowns help me make sense of the real football -> Madden translation on defense.

Liked the video, btw.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Interesting! What does "aggressive" protection actually do...? I can't think of it real football terms with my limited football knowledge, so I'm hoping you can help. Your write-ups and breakdowns help me make sense of the real football -> Madden translation on defense. Liked the video, btw.

It does nothing in real football terms to explain why it fixes the left rusher position. What it does do however, is form less of a pocket by having the tackles engage their players quicker. The angle that they left rusher engage changes and the left rusher no longer is able to simply walk around the tackle on many occasions. This actually helps the RE/ROLB's sack numbers by a ton because now when they make a move and win (which happens more often than you'd think) they don't immediately get caught back in the loop like they would with a deeper pocket (assuming you step up).

Now if you step up properly against the 4 man rush without pass protecting aggressive you can also fix that problem but if you are running a 7 step drop or simply aren't comfortable stepping up blind (since you should be looking at WRs) it can be difficult to manage. If you get good at it though you can start slide in the pocket and the cpu DEs will alternate between going inside or outside the tackles based on your position so you can work them to your liking using that method. You might take a few more DT sacks and you can also take the occasional butt sack but I have trained myself to step up on just about every pass play now since it helps fix a lot of issues within the game as well as making it so that your sacks don't kill you.

There are a ton of real concepts and techniques in this game however EA doesn't bother telling anyone about them. You can play a squat man technique 10 yards off the line to take away out routes and deep comebacks however you have to know that there are multiple techniques of off coverage in this game.

If you pick a 2 deep man defense then the DBs play a trail technique in their normal press coverage but if you back them off they will play a squat technique and undercut many routes that beat normal man coverage. If you turn that into a Cover 1 shell you'll get burned deep however because they won't turn their hips in time to run with a 9 route.

If you pick a 1 deep man defense the DBs now play a bail technique when in off coverage. The moment a WR gets 10 yards downfield they turn their hips and bail out in order not to get beat deep. This is why curls and out routes decimate most off man defenses, by the time the receiver cuts back the defender has already bailed to avoid getting beat deep.

The gameplay within the game isn't quite as flawed as everyone seems to think. Yes it has major problems but there is also a huge amount of stuff that is done right even if EA hides a large portion of it from us. I had no idea they had any form of the TE Stunt that actually worked in this game till I started messing around with finesse rushers. It was a big complaint of mine that I couldn't use a TE stunt with Mathews. Its still a problem EA thinks its only a finesse technique but the fact that its there was a pleasant surprise for me.

[RogueHominid]

This is a great video, and the animations are interesting. Sadly, this video makes it clear that I don't know how to use the sticks to engage and use these rush moves, because I can never trigger anything like that.

Is there a place where I can find a clear breakdown of how this is done, perhaps even with visual cues?

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by JMP

This is a great video, and the animations are interesting. Sadly, this video makes it clear that I don't know how to use the sticks to engage and use these rush moves, because I can never trigger anything like that. Is there a place where I can find a clear breakdown of how this is done, perhaps even with visual cues?

This is perhaps my biggest issue with EA, they are way too secretive about how to do anything specific in their game.

I can't give out any visual cues at the moment but I can explain how each move is used.

TE Stunt
Finesse Move

Hold Up on the right stick as you engage an offensive linemen. You want to be holding up before you even hit the lineman.

Spin Move
Finesse Move

This one is a little odd. There is one version you can trigger by holding down just like you do with the TE Stunt but you can also trigger it by flicking the right stick to the left or right after getting engaged (showcased by the cpu in the video) and you can even string spin moves together though almost everytime I manage it I fall over. When using the left and right flicks to do the spin move you may do one of the other pass rush moves mapped to this movement.

Bull Rush
Power Move

There are 3 kinds of Bull Rushes. You have the GET OFF ME version which is showcased in the video that is accomplished by holding up on the right stick much like the TE Stunt. You also have a bull rush animation where you bowl over the lineman but sort of stumble coming out of it that is done by holding down on the right stick instead of up. Finally there is the static bull rush which is all based on the left stick. If you get a good position on the lineman's outside shoulder you can then steer him towards the QB and collapse the pocket. I figure they give so much variety to this one move since its the only unique Power Move.

Swim Move
Finesse Move

This is accomplished by flicking the right stick to the left and right like you would for the basic arm under/lean rush moves. It unfortunately is a slightly slower version of the lean rush where you simply duck under rush. It also is harder to pull off than of the previous unique moves since it is competing with the basic pass rush moves and the possibility of the spin move when it comes to deciding what is going to happen.

Basic Moves
Power/Finesse Moves

These are slightly different for each rush type. For instance the inside arm over move for a power rusher tends to be a little more violent looking while the finesse version is for smooth. That being said they are triggered the same way. You simply flick the stick to the right or the left. You can use a lean technique that lets you approximate a straight speed rush (though sometimes they do something that looks like a swim move even when they don't have the trait) and then in the other direction you have 2 types of moves. You have the arm over where you sort of slap them away at the shoulder and then you have a really quick instep move that is very rarely executed but gets really quick pressure. This could be a case of the branching animation engine cutting the arm over animation short but it looks like a unique animation when you do get it.

[LBzrule]

I dunno. I just cannot seem to do anything with linemen. I get pancaked when I used Ngata. When I don't use him he does NOTHING. I really think EA needs to revamp the DL and pass rush controls and make the game more user friendly in that department. It is rare that I've bumped into anyone that users DLinemen. Of course, as you've pointed out there are people who use DL players. I've just rarely experienced it and I don't seem to have any success with it.