Josh Looman CCM progression talk on Twitter

[rootofalleli]

Quote: Originally Posted by mestevo

The problem with much of what you brought up is suspension of disbelief. Sure more could be done, but I've experienced the Smith/Kaepernick drama myself. I took over the Dolphins, was trucking along with Tannehill and he ended up getting injured. In comes Josh Johnson, I light up games with him and end up trading Tannehill. The AI may have problems simulating that situation, but exactly what you said Madden can't do happens all the time IMO. A player takes over a team and suddenly does better with a sub par QB because we are controlling them. As for training, more or the same, suspension of disbelief. I see practice as a microcosm of training to a degree, I don't want to run the mini game drills of past Maddens... 40 yard dash, etc. Instead I get to run a scenario with my team that results in the ability to improve my players. It's not perfect and a lot more could be done to place emphasis on different attributes but for what it is it works. I'm all for assistants and coordinators you hire influencing the income of XP for different areas, pluses and minuses the same way you prepare for a fight in a boxing/MMA title, gameplans and trends for your next opponent(s) that you can try and plan against, etc. I don't really expect some of this for a while/if ever, when they can confidently build it right and simulate it for people that don't want the minutiae - and do it in a way that the vast majority wouldn't just skip it anyways. In the end it has to be a fun NFL video game and they've been pretty successful in pulling that off. The XP system (like CCM) is far from perfect, will be interesting to see where they go with it. Injuries/age/etc points you brought up are all good, but until they are better with injuries at some positions am glad they haven't put in place Mendenhall-style regression.

You can create some stories for yourself around this game, for sure. I don't think it does a good enough job of supporting that, however. The QB story you mentioned is more about your stick skills and your settings than anything CCM does to create and amplify NFL drama.

I do agree with you that some of the recent mini-games (40 yard dash!) have been pretty bad. The last-gen ones were solid though, and some of them actually helped you practice some skills, like pass defense and precision passing. I didn't love the repetitiveness of those either, but at least they were a change of pace and were not every damn week. For me, the current practice system is about as much fun as daily quests in WoW or grinding gold/XP in old school RPGs. Those are not experiences I would seek out, and they are not innovative gameplay by any stretch.

And really that's my point - I want innovation. The whole system of goals and progression feels like what we had in the old days, except that the computer shows you what the targets are and lets you spend the points yourself (via a terrible interface, I gotta say). "Fun" and "creative" are not the easiest things to pin down, but I'm very sure that for me at least, this system is neither.

[Big FN Deal]

@CM Hooe, when I first read your last post I really took you serious. However, upon further review, I think you were just "poking bears with a stick", lol. I am not saying that you don't actually enjoy Madden or find somethings promising about what is currently being done with it but not to the extent of some of that stuff you posted, imo.

I don't know that I would call it trolling per se but I definitely believe you are trying to get the goat of people that passionately disagree with many of the decisions that are made for the direction of the only current NFL game allowed, which EA Tiburon repeatedly claims to want to be as realistic as possible. Like KB pointed out, the line about "the game has to be fun first sim second", that's what gave it away for me. Whatever we disagree about, you come across as a bright guy and know exactly what you are doing, imo. lol

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

That wouldn't be a problem if Madden would make the ratings impact the user more like in some old game called Tecmo Super Bowl. I had Flacco injured and had to use Tyrod Taylor. Yeah right getting the same production out of him like maybe in Madden.

This is something I have observed in my online league I'm in. We have one guy who made the playoffs who was starting Jacory Harris at quarterback. I'm definitely of the opinion that ratings absolutely matter in Madden, but this still is a bit of a head-scratcher for me. A big problem from my vantage point is that AWR absolutely doesn't matter for human-controlled players; it should have some effect, given that it's a huge component of the OVR rating calculation.

Quote:

Practice is about the most boring part of this game. It doesn't make sense even as an abstraction for training. Playing one drive represents...what exactly? Playing a harder scenario for less experience is representing...? I haven't run a practice in 8 weeks...what would happen if a real life team didn't practice/train at all for 8 weeks? Why am I facing some random team of nobodies, some of which are better than my own team? What is that abstracting? Why can't I face my own defense/offense like in a real practice?

Agreed that practice could be better and appears to be a bit of a tack-on. I think the idea fits in concept with the entire CCM system - earn XP outside of games in some football-related fashion to build all players on the team up, to grind if you will - but it could stand to be better balanced and have more specific goals. Maybe have practices focus on and have goals towards different facets of the game instead - pass game, rush game, pass defense, clock management, and so on. Something more than just "win by any means necessary in this particular game setup we give you."

Quote:

And that's why you can build teams that, after a while, require very little maintenance because you never have to worry about anyone dropping off like that OR coming out of nowhere to force your hand a giving playing time, etc. Everyone is pretty much where they are. When I have to do the game's work and come up with reasons to mess up my own team or make interesting things happen to players - that's a problem, imo. Why isn't the game doing this?

Agreed that player regression is too weak in this game, particularly for older players. The average NFL player has a career of four years; that's not reflected properly in Madden. It's a balancing issue.

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This logic doesn't make sense because you're interacting with the game every time you play a game out on the field. Every player on that team is there by your actions. You're not "watching the game play itself." The progression system can take into account your decisions on the depth chart, or the fact you picked a team full of injury prone sissies (Raiders) or took the chance on drafting that paper tiger rookie with 90 OVR and 60 INJ/TGH/STA, or the fact you went with steady players who go to work everyday and that's your advantage. Just because everything doesn't occur the instant a user pushes a button doesn't mean what happened is just "seemingly random." Sometimes, choices have consequences down the road, but don't show up immediately. Both in games and life. If the user can't remember it or doesn't see the connection - that's not the system's fault.

I think I'm struggling with a bit of a disconnect with regard to what your ideal progression system would be; my frames of reference are previous games in which the user had little control over how a player improved and, compared to the current system, I didn't really enjoy whatsoever. Previous Madden games progressed all players at a given position the same way depending on performance level (and in Madden 10 through 12, also the poorly-masked potential rating which made team-building entirely too easy). The old 2K games never appeared to have any rhyme or reason with regard to how players progressed or how weekly prep worked. The latter in particular is specifically what I was referring to with the "seemingly random" comment; I never felt in those games that I had control over how my team was improving, particularly after I once had QB Quincy Carter regress a few points after making the Pro Bowl and winning Super Bowl MVP (hilarious, I know ). There was no explanation as to why that happened, and I felt incredibly jobbed by the game in the face of what by all accounts should have been a performance worthy of a reward via a ratings boost.

Quote:

So why not have that progress done like in HC 09? Per attribute, based on actions that, you know, actually FIT that attribute? Getting INTs shouldn't help tackling. A running back "catching 2 passes" (seriously, that's some noteworthy goal for a NFL player?) shouldn't increase BCV, but RTE, CTH, CIT. Getting tackles shouldn't help ZCV, but TAK, PUR and POW.

The current system allows for just what you want to happen as a result of actions by the end user; one could choose to spend earned XP in only areas based on how the player performed in his previous game. It has the additional flexibility of allowing the user to balance out his players' skill sets. Is this not an example of a strategic decision? When in doubt, I think it's preferable to give control to the user; for me, customization is king.

That said, I do like the idea of task-specific goals for positions, and I think it could be adapted into the mode to allow for more flexibility in player deployment. To go back to the earlier discussion about inflexibility in player deployment, maybe instead of one season total tackles goal, the linebacker could have season goals for tackles, INTs, sacks, and so on, and through those various goals distribute the current massive XP bonus currently reserved for the singular goal that all players have. Perhaps the goals could also be weighted differently based on a player's player type; a 3-4 Pass Rusher would expect to earn more XP from a season sacks goal than a season INTs goal, for example.

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Except "fun" is no more definitively defined by you as it is me. You think it's fun because it matches what you like. So to me, EA hasn't created that "fun" system.

Fair point.

[Ueauvan]

the position thing is annoying. from college you should be able to change their position. in the nfl you should be able to position a player on the depth chart regardless of their current position, that isnt possible in m13. only in the game can i switch a OT to OG, and that is flaunting the depth chart freeze crash.
player like Beason were ILB went to LOLB etc. older CBs make good S however if you move them their AWR goes splat and the AI goes bye bye Ray. same for any position
goals force you to stretch play to illogical cocnlusions. all players who dress should get exps for winning, and the coach most importantly. if you dont win, 40 tds a year is useless if you give up 10000 yds in defence or dont mix with some sort of run game

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

@CM Hooe, when I first read your last post I really took you serious. However, upon further review, I think you were just "poking bears with a stick", lol. I am not saying that you don't actually enjoy Madden or find somethings promising about what is currently being done with it but not to the extent of some of that stuff you posted, imo. I don't know that I would call it trolling per se but I definitely believe you are trying to get the goat of people that passionately disagree with many of the decisions that are made for the direction of the only current NFL game allowed, which EA Tiburon repeatedly claims to want to be as realistic as possible. Like KB pointed out, the line about "the game has to be fun first sim second", that's what gave it away for me. Whatever we disagree about, you come across as a bright guy and know exactly what you are doing, imo. lol

I don't feel like I'm goating anyone. I have my opinions on the game and explain how I reach my opinions from the perspective of someone who enjoys video games first and football games second. Heck, though I obviously like Madden 13, I've been playing a whole lot more Minecraft than Madden recently, haha.

Honestly, I get bummed out with the sheer amount of negativity in this forum. I feel like a lot of it is exaggerated, undeserved, and is the product of lingering resentment resulting from the 2005 exclusivity arrangement. The lack of direction of the series during the first few years of this console cycle didn't help matters; I personally didn't find any next-gen Madden game enjoyable until M09, though I feel the series has been on-track since that point, and I have thoroughly enjoyed this year's game moreso than any previous iteration. By the same token, I'm not going to sit here and try to convince people that Madden is a perfect game, and I readily admit that there are plenty of things that can be done better in Madden going forward. I've offered many thoughts as to how I think Madden could improve going forward in this thread alone.

[rootofalleli]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Except "fun" is no more definitively defined by you as it is me. You think it's fun because it matches what you like. So to me, EA hasn't created that "fun" system.

Awesome post! Maybe on some level we all want to make our teams into juggernauts. But the problem is that we ALL can do it in Madden. Rebuilding a terrible team and winning a Super Bowl in a season or three is a common experience. Because it's just a matter of time, it's not as much fun for me as it could be. For some people, fun means making hard choices and making do with limited resources.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I don't feel like I'm goating anyone. I have my opinions on the game and explain how I reach my opinions from the perspective of someone who enjoys video games first and football games second. Heck, though I obviously like Madden 13, I've been playing a whole lot more Minecraft than Madden recently, haha. Honestly, I get bummed out with the sheer amount of negativity in this forum. I feel like a lot of it is exaggerated, undeserved, and is the product of lingering resentment resulting from the 2005 exclusivity arrangement. The lack of direction of the series during the first few years of this console cycle didn't help matters; I personally didn't find any next-gen Madden game enjoyable until M09, though I feel the series has been on-track since that point, and I have thoroughly enjoyed this year's game moreso than any previous iteration. By the same token, I'm not going to sit here and try to convince people that Madden is a perfect game, and I readily admit that there are plenty of things that can be done better in Madden going forward. I've offered many thoughts as to how I think Madden could improve going forward in this thread alone.

I'm going to attempt at a response to this because you and I are constantly going at each other. That's not my intent, but I'm not the personality type to take one on the chin without retaliating with a few hay-makers :P. That being said, I decided against that this morning, because it's not going to do either of us much good.

I'll be the first to offer a peace treaty because I'm not interested in getting into personal skirmishes or any of that nonsense. I have strong opinions that have been forged through years of frustration and hard facts based on the inside knowledge I've been fortunate to come across along with a long line of under-performing, sub standard, colossal crapfest football games produced over the last 8 years.

What clearly frustrates you is the fact that someone doesn't or can't see your side of it. You just can't wrap your head around how someone can't enjoy Madden despite it's flaws and then you group them into one big bunch that classifies them as simply being resentful over the exclusive license agreement or just anti EA. I'm here to tell you that there are plenty of guys who feel the exact same way about your posts, except in reverse. They find it incredibly frustrating how you are willing to accept the extreme sub-standard quality and the constant foul ups of the development team. Then go out of your way to defend poor implementation and decisions. However, that doesn't make them right and you wrong (and vice versa). You are undoubtedly entitled to that view. People express their opinions on this board, but mainly, a lot of guys use this forum to vent their frustrations and discuss why they feel the way they do about the direction and design of this game. The negativity on this forum has been created only by Tiburon and Tiburon alone. A lot of us were die hard fans from the beginning. There is nothing to be gained by simply "h@ting" a product for the sake of hating it. I love football. There was an NFL game that came out that pulled me away from madden because it was realistic, fun and immersed me into the game like no other could. That was taken away with the promise that with the unlimited access and resources EA would now have, NFL gaming would be changed forever. I was willing to embrace that 100% and give it a go. We all saw how that turned out.

Quite simply, you can make valid points to support your argument as to why you think Madden is a better game than most people think. You've done that in some of your posts. However, the underhanded jabs at those that don't share your view, the arrogant little pokes - those are unnecessary and just causes others to classify you as an EA "nuthugger", (as Mestevo so elegantly put it at one time, lol).

The truth is, no one wants to classify anyone as anything. Everyone wants better football. Or at least as good as we once had it. It's not close to that right now and there is plenty of frustration to go around. What's not fun for me may in fact be fun for you. However, I'm not going to convince myself that something is different than what it is simply because it makes me feel better, or that I want to believe it's better than it is. The opinions on this forum should not really have any effect on your ability to enjoy this game.

[jfinger2013]

i personally feel like progression should be based on stats and a little bit of how a team did that season. Say if Jay Cutler won MVP but his team didnt make the playoffs instead of his overall going up 4 points only make it go up 2 or something like that. I feel like in the NFL IRL u determine who is good because of the numbers that they produce. We all know Larry Fitzgerald is great but we arent gonna say he is the best WR in the league due to the fact that his numbers don't match that.

I would get rid oft he xp system and maybe do something like Nba 2k does as far as progression goes the older you get the more you regress the younger you are the better the chance you have of producing better. But also their may be young ppl who dont progress well which is why i feel it shouldbe based solely on stats. If next year i decide to control Andrew Luck and throw 30 INTs and 4TDs with him he should Regress simply as that.

Get rid of XP and base it off stats only. I do like the goals system though. But instead of goals going to xp make it go to attributes. Per say if your goal is to get 100 tackles in a season and you meet those requirements you Tackle attribute should go up 5 points or something like that. Progression should be based off stats and your play sttyle.