Which Attributes Are Nullified By User Control?

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

I was about to chastise everyone for hijacking my thread, but if I'm understanding the gist of this argument correctly, then the answer to my op is basically all attributes are over-ridden by user controlling a player? So as a new Maddenite (I too have been playing HC since aught5) i can draft/sign ANY player regardless of attributes if I plan on "usering" that player during games? Is that what everyone is assuming I should already know?

If you join a league with some players who are good at usering, you will see them finish a season with a middle linebacker who has 20 interceptions. Or a safety that is 59 overall but has high speed and agility so he finishes the season with hall of fame numbers.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

I was about to chastise everyone for hijacking my thread, but if I'm understanding the gist of this argument correctly, then the answer to my op is basically all attributes are over-ridden by user controlling a player? So as a new Maddenite (I too have been playing HC since aught5) i can draft/sign ANY player regardless of attributes if I plan on "usering" that player during games? Is that what everyone is assuming I should already know?

I guess that's about it, in a nutshell, lol. Think of Madden as being created to be 1v1 football game, which I know sounds ridiculous but it is what it is. It has been stated by those affiliated with creating the game that Madden is NOT made for CPU v CPU and I wish more people would be outraged by that statement considering the vast majority of the gameplay for an 11v11 sport is CPU v CPU.

This video game, I stress VIDEO GAME, is created to be all about arcadey User control and the perspective on ratings adherence by the "deciders" for Madden seems to be that it's tantamount to just watching, not playing, the game. So User control is the end all be all because, in their opinion, anything less just as well be a laserdisc video game like Dragon's Lair. They seem to completely ignore the fact that other sports sims have and continue to achieve a solid balance of User control and ratings adherence though.

Anyway OP, you likely started this thread believing that finding out more info about how Madden works would help you make sense of it. However, I have found that the more I find out about this game, the less it makes sense, in the context of creating a NFL simulation video game.

EDIT- Not ALL ratings are overridden ALL the time, in my experience. I don't know that THP(throwing power) can be and SPD(speed) can't be all the time but it can be at times using the speed burst/turbo when switching to a defender that should already be hustling/running top speed.

[hanzsomehanz]

Slo It comes down to the slider setup and your perception of sliders.
A 25 to 50 qba for example can make it very easy to lead pass w any average to weak qb.

The numbers can be manipulated to mean something more. Even the penalty sliders can limit user success to a more neutral ratings level.

Another example if you put Int to zero your user skill will not advantage you in picks one iota. At fifty though user picks are more trust worthy than allowing the cpu to do it.

Do you see how by default user is given more power? but the power can be shifted and neutralized to a ratings scale. That is where your perception and understanding of the whole system is needed if you wish to balance or tip the scales.

Consider the term user assistance. In driving games its akin to steering and breaking assistance and auto shifting.

By default the user is given too much assistance. I agree w Taz that its intentional to appease the masses desire for instant gratifaction.

How much do ratings affect user control? At rookie you get a 100 pt boost pro 75 all pro 50 and all madden is 25.

From rookie to pro not much skill is needed. At all pro skill is needed. At all madden the optimum user skill is needed.

Not all sliders and ratings are ability of course. More user skill is needed when the more assistance drips off.

The higher you go on difficulty the less assistance youre getting.

What you can affect in awareness is via the penalty tab. For example a 100 defense pass interference number will feel different in user control vs a 50 or 0.

Thats as well as I can put it. Its arbitrary as well as subjective to your experience as well as objective to your own observations.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

EDIT- Not ALL ratings are overridden ALL the time, in my experience. I don't know that THP(throwing power) can be and SPD(speed) can't be all the time but it can be at times using the speed burst/turbo when switching to a defender that should already be hustling/running top speed.

I would imagine that all attributes which govern on-ball interactions translate well with regard to user inputs; i.e when the user is controlling the ball carrier or attacking the ball carrier. Examples might include THP, TAS, TAM, TAD, TOR, SPD, AGI, ACC, STR, TKL, POW, CTH, CIT, SPC, TRK, SFA, SPM, and JKM.

I would imagine the same rules apply to a user-controlled pass rusher with regard to PMV and FMV. I would imagine STA, INJ, and TGH also are going to operate the same regardless of user control.

The user can't control an offensive lineman because as far as I know lead blocking control was removed so PBK, RBK, PBS, RBS, PBF, and RBF we don't have to worry about.

The more intangible ratings is where I'm going to guess people start noticing discrepancies between a player under user control and a player under AI control; which might affect how MCV, ZCV, PRC, PUR, PAC, RRT, and AWR work. Those are all important.

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

This is a great post KB, but this is not what the masses nor EA want. This type of element limits the game to people who actually understand football and the nuances of the game. That would be a "simulation". This is exactly what you will never get from EA. Their goal is to allow someone who knows very little about the actual sport to be successful, which in their mind, makes the game "fun". This is why all of this discussion is forever inconsequential. They have no interest in creating what you are describing and will never do it. Need proof? Turn on ESPN and watch Madden Nation. You think those guys really understand football? It's laughable. Madden will never be a simulation of the real NFL. It's a competitive game BASED on football with the NFL brand. It's not much different than Blitz to be honest.

Oh, but I'm always surprised at the percentage of us "sim" people there seem to be on this forum. I guess that's why I stick around

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I would imagine that all attributes which govern on-ball interactions translate well with regard to user inputs; i.e when the user is controlling the ball carrier or attacking the ball carrier. Examples might include THP, TAS, TAM, TAD, TOR, SPD, AGI, ACC, STR, TKL, POW, CTH, CIT, SPC, TRK, SFA, SPM, and JKM. I would imagine the same rules apply to a user-controlled pass rusher with regard to PMV and FMV. I would imagine STA, INJ, and TGH also are going to operate the same regardless of user control. The user can't control an offensive lineman because as far as I know lead blocking control was removed so PBK, RBK, PBS, RBS, PBF, and RBF we don't have to worry about. The more intangible ratings is where I'm going to guess people start noticing discrepancies between a player under user control and a player under AI control; which might affect how MCV, ZCV, PRC, PUR, PAC, RRT, and AWR work. Those are all important.

Let me preface this with I am referring to default Madden, not sliders.

SPD can be overridden by User control at times with the speed burst/turbo as I described previously, THA seems as if it can be overridden by labbing ball placement with the left stick, CTH seems as if it can be overridden/enhanced by usering the "catch" button, JKM/SPM/TRK/SFA are mostly overridden/irrelevant due to zig-zag running allowing the User ball carrier to avoid contact and those are just off the top of my head. I can just imagine what would be uncovered by actually testing/labbing these things in-game.

[at23steelers]

To a response a page back: If they are giving us the ability to manually pick a player and play their career, then they better have specific animations geared towards better players of that positions versus mediocre ones. What's the fun in playing with Deion Sanders when I can control someone like Anthony Madison and play just the same? Maybe if they don't follow the coverage they are supposed they're awareness and coverage ability drops when using them. Same thing for a WR. Their needs to be a penalty for not playing the route or coverage designed for you.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I would imagine that all attributes which govern on-ball interactions translate well with regard to user inputs; i.e when the user is controlling the ball carrier or attacking the ball carrier. Examples might include THP, TAS, TAM, TAD, TOR, SPD, AGI, ACC, STR, TKL, POW, CTH, CIT, SPC, TRK, SFA, SPM, and JKM.

S/M/DAC is overriden with L-stick control, though to some degree it does still matter. However, if you're good with the L-stick, I imagine on default settings, you can mitigate away a lot of the impacts of accuracy. Also the tolerance on the button timings for various types of passes (maybe).

Also seems to impact defender reaction and pass defense chances, in which case you're messing with the defenders' ratings as well.

TOR is less impacting. That said, when you can stop on a dime, mitigating that is just not moving the QB. He stops dead, you throw, TOR bypassed. I know, because I've pulled it off with QBs that can move but have weakish TOR ratings, not even meaning to. I let go of the L-stick because I don't want to impact the throw, but it makes the QB stop moving, too.

STR - probably the only rating you can't really overcome. SPD, sprinting can do that, at least as far as my reasoning. Players run at a speed based on their rating already. ACC - not sure what this actually does under user control. Players seem to start and stop willy-nilly anyway. AGI seems to impact just how much zig-zagging you can do...which is funny because the "failure" (i.e. the player actually footplanting/making a cut) can be even more effective than using a "move" for disrupting pursuit.

TAK - You can overcome this somewhat by not using the Tackle button. I've done it by mistake. Running into a player starts a tackle sequence. I don't know if it's the IE doing this. POW - uncertain, but it doesn't seem POW matters to success of the tackle, but if a fumble is caused. That said, Big Hitter does a LOT to overcome POW on its own. POW still matters, but not as much.

The HB "moves" have some attachment to the timing window, so if you hit that window, the "move" takes it effects. There's also the randomness component here.

CTH, CIT, SPC - probably the next least 'overcome-able' to STR. Still, considering user control can create a different result than CPU control, it's probably another timing window aspect.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I would imagine the same rules apply to a user-controlled pass rusher with regard to PMV and FMV. I would imagine STA, INJ, and TGH also are going to operate the same regardless of user control. The user can't control an offensive lineman because as far as I know lead blocking control was removed so PBK, RBK, PBS, RBS, PBF, and RBF we don't have to worry about.

STA/INJ/TGH - I would agree. P/FMV...not so much. Some moves seem only usable with user control. Either that or the CPU doesn't "unlock them" under its control based on rating...which would point to overriding ratings.

For the OL - it depends on how slide protection works. Does sliding one way or another allow them to pick up blitzes/execute blocking better than they otherwise would with their own reaction and blocking ability?