So what's the point of defense in this game?

[JerzeyReign]

I think some guys are missing the point. Its not about bad players, its about being able to fundamentally apply realistic concepts quickly enough to slow down the offense.

For example, shading a WR inside. In order to do that in this year's version of the game I'd have to individually go through each WR to accomplish that. Maybe I'll lose my gamer status for this next part but my fingers aren't quick enough to make those adjustments while still being able to adjust the line/linebackers prior to the snap.

Now a quick solution for this is maybe a blanket command in which I tell all my defenders to play the inside/outside. Keep the individual commands but at least allow me to attempt a "hot adjustment". If I don't push anything maybe the corner plays trail tech...

I won't dive into it all because I think most of us agree that we need the defensive side of the ball's commands expanded upon. I think we should get rid of of the Wishlist Forum and start posting topics such as these to get requests brought to the forefront with ideas of how to put them in the game. You know, bring back the "old OS" (without the trolls of course haha)

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by californ14

For a solid defense you really do have to micro-manage the whole team....Which online or even against the CPU is impossible, or it seems to me....Maybe the simple fix would be to give defense more time to adjust? But that would remove the ability to "no huddle" or run a fast paced offense which is a part of football too....I guess really EA/Tiburon need to work on making a better defense, as well as offense, by getting the fundamentals correct.....

Exactly, which is complete bs and I have no idea where EA Tiburon got this concept but it certainly isn't from real football. The premise of defense and offense in Madden seems to be based on a real time strategy game, instead of football game planning, off field adjustments and on field player rating AI. It just doesn't make no dang sense, when there are other top sports sims where each team and player have distinct tendencies. The CPU can't utilize all manner of preplay adjustments and micromanage like a User can at the LOS, so I can't imagine a User that does, playing against the CPU.

Trying to discuss any level of strategy in Madden gives me a headache because the fundamental approach to implementing football in the game is so bizarre.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by BTownSlinger

Again, there are flaws in the gameplay but most of the problems are user mistakes.

I disagree that "most" of the problems are on the users.

There's enough wrong with the defensive "intelligence" in this game that I believe it's the problem at least half as much as people who think 38 MCV should cover well (really? people think that?)

I totally hate how defense is played in Madden. Every year, I feel like I have to "beat some defense into the game". Even when a defense plays well (yeah, yeah, I'm offline, I know that renders me irrelevant, but I'm going to keep talking anyway :P) it's not always because they played the way a good defender should play, it's because they overcome enough of the "Maddenisms" to still play decent something kinda-like football. For example, the HB might push the first 90 TAK LB away, and then the 80 TAK LB, only to get tackled for 3 yards by the other 90 TAK LB.

LBs that good do not miss tackles very often in the NFL. The worst rate is about 15%. WORST. 80 is about average on the ratings scale. 90+ should be nearing the literal 98% success Willis had in 2011.

That's just the start - the football intelligence of the LBs is off. No awareness of gaps by design. No understanding of staying home. No understanding of trying to string out plays, where the contain and force is, how to manage their zones (let alone what passes for "zone coverage" in this game is "man to man for only a little while" instead of actually working a zone). No on the fly adjustments of players as the play is happening (true play recognition, not just the stat making the player "more psychic"), reading keys, etc.

So there's a lot to go on to where the game needs improving defensively, and that's just one position group. The problems in the whole front seven might take a book to write. Let alone the DBs and how they don't "read" routes or any simulated anticipation, but just get to run them ahead of the receiver and react as soon as the QB moves his arm to throw (i.e. as you as you hit the button - input reading instead of reading the field).

If there's people that think trash ratings should still do well, yes, that's illogical. In fact, they'd likely get exploited even more if the game played more realistically, but I don't want the game to be concerned with those players. It's the ones that know what they are doing - they shouldn't have to spend as much time "getting around the game" as they do devising ways to crush the offense.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by JerzeyReign

I think some guys are missing the point. Its not about bad players, its about being able to fundamentally apply realistic concepts quickly enough to slow down the offense. For example, shading a WR inside. In order to do that in this year's version of the game I'd have to individually go through each WR to accomplish that. Maybe I'll lose my gamer status for this next part but my fingers aren't quick enough to make those adjustments while still being able to adjust the line/linebackers prior to the snap. Now a quick solution for this is maybe a blanket command in which I tell all my defenders to play the inside/outside. Keep the individual commands but at least allow me to attempt a "hot adjustment". If I don't push anything maybe the corner plays trail tech... I won't dive into it all because I think most of us agree that we need the defensive side of the ball's commands expanded upon. I think we should get rid of of the Wishlist Forum and start posting topics such as these to get requests brought to the forefront with ideas of how to put them in the game. You know, bring back the "old OS" (without the trolls of course haha)

To expand on this, they should move this stuff, coaching a player a up, to the sideline, off the field where it belongs. I remember back in the good ole days, 2004, when you actually had to adjust to what your opponent did in the play call screen, not at the LOS. I don't understand what happened to that concept, Madden negates the parameters of off field play calling and game planning, the only thing you can't mulligan at the LOS is personnel but you can audible shift them all over the place.

The unrealistic micromanagement of the defense likely stems from the unrealistic micromanagement of the offense, as a counter but they both need to be changed. Someone on another site had a good idea about why aren't route adjustments/hot routes programmed into the receivers AI, instead of the User literally adjusting their route in-game. This is so true because there is no QB coming to the LOS instructing individual routes for receivers to run like in Madden, again I don't no where Tiburon got that from. If I am not mistaken, a hot read requires both the QB and receiver to individually recognize the blitz/coverage and make the adjustment, not the QB micromanaging receivers at the LOS.

[penquin11]

Most of the defensive plays in the game are terrible at covering short-mid range passes over the middle, that includes cover 2 zone plays. To counteract this the player can set a LB in a spy zone and put a DT on a hook zone. Also if your getting burnt by short passes or manula screens to TE's tell your DE to go on a Flat zone while spying the QB with your LB to make sure your opponent doesnt run with the QB. To deal with deep passes assume manula control over a safety in the cover 3 formation or run 3 safety plays (panthers d book) that give you better pass protection. Right now madden forces you to choose betwen having adequate pass coverage or an adequate pass rush...

[BTownSlinger]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I disagree that "most" of the problems are on the users.

I stand completely by what I said. For evidence, scroll up to this post:

Quote: Originally Posted by PacMan3000

Can we get a Madden game where, when you hit the "jump" button, defenders (and WR's for that matter) consistently always, you know, jump?

Not to pick on you PacMan, but my DB's always jump when they're in position to do so. Now, when you smash the jump button and they don't jump, it's because they're body is not in the position to do so, and/or they are too far away from the ball to make a play. Again, go back and read my other post. Most Madden players expect their players in-game to do unhumanly things.

You cannot expect your player to launch himself over the moon for a catch or an interception every time you ask him to.

Again, I know there are some serious gameplay issues, and I too at times have been frustrated by some of the things mentioned in this thread. But when you are asking your players to be mid-air contortionists then yes, YOU are in fact the problem, and not the game.

It's the same thing with the press coverage. I do think its a little bugged, but you can't press everyone. That all comes down to the press and release ratings, I typically will try pressing a receiver once and if they have a good release, then I let whoever is covering him play off. Most TE's that come in motion out wide you can press all day long and not get beat. I'm typically able to press most slot receivers as their ratings are typically lower.

Again, you cannot press good receivers and expect to win that battle, so the game is right in that aspect. It's football. It's supposed to be challenging, no offense to anyone but you can always play on a lesser difficulty if your current settings are too tough.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by BTownSlinger

I stand completely by what I said. For evidence, scroll up to this post: Not to pick on you PacMan, but my DB's always jump when they're in position to do so. Now, when you smash the jump button and they don't jump, it's because they're body is not in the position to do so, and/or they are too far away from the ball to make a play. Again, go back and read my other post. Most Madden players expect their players in-game to do unhumanly things. You cannot expect your player to launch himself over the moon for a catch or an interception every time you ask him to.

Is the bold true or is that something you just think is happening? I would be surprised to learn that the lack of jumping is actually an in-game parameter for out of position players and not just a malfunction. Reason being, if they were going to actually program something like that in-game, it would also make sense to add in animations that account for a reasonable action, not just the player not responding to the button press at all. For example if a player is away from the play like you stated, that shouldn't prevent them from jumping or making some reasonable action at the ball if the User presses the jump button.

I am not trying to say you are wrong because you could be right but I just wish if true, things like this would be explained by Tiburon instead of gamers having to try to solve another Scooby Doo Madden game play mystery.

[BTownSlinger]

I don't know it to be fact, but my reasoning for saying this is because I think it's human reaction to try to (for example) intercept a pass so I too quickly switch to my DB/Safety and try to intercept. When I check the replay and see the different angles, it's then I see that there were 3-4+ yards of separation, or that my DB was at an angle to the ball that when added to the trajectory of the football it never could happen in real life. You have to remember you're seeing the field from one view when you're playing and it sometimes can make it look like players are much closer than they really are.

Trust me at times I've yelled and cussed, only to check the replay and feel like a doofus.