Ratings fears

[californ14]

Went and did a base line to try adjusting Agility...I just decided to try adjusting agility by mass/weight under the general theory that a lighter person would be more agile....And since I am using strength as if it were mass, giving a higher strength to persons of bigger size, this would,in theory, balance some things...

My frame of mind is that physical skills are constant and generally predictable...The numbers may just as well be grounded in a relative sense, in that just because a player may have a numerical value of 20 for agility does not mean he is not very agile, it means that in relation to the other professionals he is not as agile...In Madden there seems to be little difference between a rating of 70 versus 90.

Weight scale------Agility range
320 to 350--------(19-05)
300 to 319--------(30-20)
275 to 299--------(40-31)
260 to 275--------(55-41)
235 to 259--------(66-56)
220 to 234--------(77-67)
200 to 219--------(88-78)
180 to 199--------(99-89)

[BV11]

Quote: Originally Posted by californ14

Went and did a base line to try adjusting Agility...I just decided to try adjusting agility by mass/weight under the general theory that a lighter person would be more agile....And since I am using strength as if it were mass, giving a higher strength to persons of bigger size, this would,in theory, balance some things... My frame of mind is that physical skills are constant and generally predictable...The numbers may just as well be grounded in a relative sense, in that just because a player may have a numerical value of 20 for agility does not mean he is not very agile, it means that in relation to the other professionals he is not as agile...In Madden there seems to be little difference between a rating of 70 versus 90. Weight scale------Agility range 320 to 350--------(19-05) 300 to 319--------(30-20) 275 to 299--------(40-31) 260 to 275--------(55-41) 235 to 259--------(66-56) 220 to 234--------(77-67) 200 to 219--------(88-78) 180 to 199--------(99-89)

What were the results of that? I really like what you are doing here thinking outside the box.

[BleedGreen710]

Just fired up madden 2002 for PC to check out the rosters and man they are really great. The average team has only 1-3 players over 90 OVR and some teams don't have ANY players over 90 OVR (Steelers best player is 86ovr). Also I love how much the speed differentiates between positions. Ray Lewis has just 73 speed yet is by far the best MLB in the game. Now a days any linebacker with 73 speed is an instant mismatch on Madden.

Here I counted up how many players above 90 OVR there are at each position. I don't have M13 in front of me but I am sure the results are much different. Also I have included the highest speed for a player at that position in parenthesis:

QB - 5 (89 Speed Mike Vick - all others are 80 or less)
HB- 6 (93 Speed Marshall Faulk - only 5 HBs with 90+ speed )
FB- 4 (79 Speed Mike Alstott)
WR- 7 (99 Speed Randy Moss - only 20 WRs with 90+ speed)
TE- 2 (80 Speed Tony Gonzalez)
LT- 3
LG- 2
C- 2 (All OL below 60 speed)
RG- 2
RT- 1

LE- 2 (72 Speed Simeon Rice)
RE- 4 (86 Speed Jevon Kearse all others below 80 speed)
DT- 6 (66 Speed Warren Sapp)
LOLB- 1 (84 Speed Peter Boulware only 5 LOLB above 80 speed)
MLB- 4 (85 Speed Brian Urlacher all others below 80 speed)
ROLB- 3 (86 Speed Derrick Brooks only 6 ROLB above 80 speed)
CB- 5 (98 Speed Champ Bailey only 15 CB with above 90 speed)
FS- 3 (89 Speed Rod Woodson)
SS- 4 (87 Speed Lance Shulters)
K- 6
P- 3

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by californ14

I do not have a roster file per se, at the moment; I have only been editing one roster so far to experiment with at the moment. I am very aware of the FBPro98 VPNFL files; I played in VPNFL based leagues until 2004, and it was those very files that inspired my hypothesis and experiments in Madden. The best I have to offer right now is the posts where I outlined my formulas for changing speed & acceleration, and Strength...I did the edits on one team relatively quick by getting a general idea of a players 40 time rather than looking up each one individually, thus saving time for experimental reasons.... NOw that I am seeing positive results I plan on getting exact 40 times into play and then looking at adjusting agility...From there I want to look at balancing ratings for a better pass pressure game; thus looking at pass blocking in relation to pass rush and counter moves like finesse and bull rushing...

This is awesome. I really look forward to reading all of your findings and hope that with Madden Share, you'd be able to share these new scaled ratings in the future.

Its really impressive to see people figure out ways to make the game play better, but its equally as disappointing to see that EA seem to be incapable or unwilling to do likewise.

[Trick13]

Quote: Originally Posted by californ14

Went and did a base line to try adjusting Agility...I just decided to try adjusting agility by mass/weight under the general theory that a lighter person would be more agile....And since I am using strength as if it were mass, giving a higher strength to persons of bigger size, this would,in theory, balance some things... My frame of mind is that physical skills are constant and generally predictable...The numbers may just as well be grounded in a relative sense, in that just because a player may have a numerical value of 20 for agility does not mean he is not very agile, it means that in relation to the other professionals he is not as agile...In Madden there seems to be little difference between a rating of 70 versus 90. Weight scale------Agility range 320 to 350--------(19-05) 300 to 319--------(30-20) 275 to 299--------(40-31) 260 to 275--------(55-41) 235 to 259--------(66-56) 220 to 234--------(77-67) 200 to 219--------(88-78) 180 to 199--------(99-89)

I really think you are on to something. There are exceptions to your "rule" but if all the attributes were scaled to height weight as a base it would be much more fluid - I think.

EA really ticked me off last year, when leading up to M13 they said "taller players would have better balance than short guys" - absolutely the opposite of reality.

It is those statements that make me cringe and wonder if EA will ever get it.

I think a lot of ratings should be scaled to Ht/Wt - ie you could have a 5'10" 185 lbs player with 99 STR - meaning he has the maximum strength for his size and he probably would have the same "max press" as a 300 lbs player with 60 STR.

Or a 325 lb guy with 99AGI having the same "functional AGI" as a 185 lbs guy with 65 AGI.

The only physical ratings where that should not be the case are jump acceleration and speed, I mean otherwise it would be difficult to replicate Megatron's actual speed and acceleration. Jump is pretty cut and dry.

I am not sure how to accomplish what it seems we are all after, but they have to do something different - I think most people agree there.

[californ14]

Quote: Originally Posted by BV11

What were the results of that? I really like what you are doing here thinking outside the box.

thank you. I just finished editing the players with the new agility ratings added and watched one cpu v cpu game and going to try actually playing a game shortly. I am liking the results I am seeing but I need to play a few more games before I can confidently declare a revelation or win, but looking good with the exception of how the ratings look when u view the players; being so used to high ratings the new ones look weird.

just wish the was a better way, in Madden, to rest agility...I am looking into shuttle times and they generally show offensive linemen as slowest so I believe all will pan out well.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by BleedGreen710

Just fired up madden 2002 for PC to check out the rosters and man they are really great. The average team has only 1-3 players over 90 OVR and some teams don't have ANY players over 90 OVR (Steelers best player is 86ovr). Also I love how much the speed differentiates between positions. Ray Lewis has just 73 speed yet is by far the best MLB in the game. Now a days any linebacker with 73 speed is an instant mismatch on Madden. Here I counted up how many players above 90 OVR there are at each position. I don't have M13 in front of me but I am sure the results are much different. Also I have included the highest speed for a player at that position in parenthesis: QB - 5 (89 Vick - all others are 80 or less) HB- 6 (93 Faulk - only 5 HBs with 90+ speed ) FB- 4 (79 Alstott) WR- 7 (99 Moss - only 20 WRs with 90+ speed) TE- 2 (80 Tony Gonzalez) LT- 3 LG- 2 C- 2 RG- 2 RT- 1 LE- 2 RE- 4 DT- 6 LOLB- 1 MLB- 4 ROLB- 3 CB- 5 FS- 3 SS- 4 K- 6 P- 3

I remember playing Madden 03 up until Madden 10 came out... Peyton Manning was a 92 or 93 overall while the best QB was Kurt Warner at 95 or so. I seem to remember only Rich Gannon and Brett Favre having the other 90+ ratings (Tom Brady was 86 or so).

I seriously don't know how its gotten so wrong.

What needs to be done first, before anything though, is for EA to truly find out what their ratings actually do. What each rating really controls.

Anyone else remember the blog post by Clint Oldenburg about the Strength rating for OL???

Who else was with me thinking that strength would determine the likelihood of a pancake block or control who was pushed backwards/forwards?

Who else was totally shocked to find out Strength determines how long a player can maintain the block for?

We NEED to find out what EVERY rating does 'under the hood', and so do EA, so that ratings can actually be modified into being something of substance.

[californ14]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trick13

I really think you are on to something. There are exceptions to your "rule" but if all the attributes were scaled to height weight as a base it would be much more fluid - I think. EA really ticked me off last year, when leading up to M13 they said "taller players would have better balance than short guys" - absolutely the opposite of reality. It is those statements that make me cringe and wonder if EA will ever get it. I think a lot of ratings should be scaled to Ht/Wt - ie you could have a 5'10" 185 lbs player with 99 STR - meaning he has the maximum strength for his size and he probably would have the same "max press" as a 300 lbs player with 60 STR. Or a 325 lb guy with 99AGI having the same "functional AGI" as a 185 lbs guy with 65 AGI. The only physical ratings where that should not be the case are jump acceleration and speed, I mean otherwise it would be difficult to replicate Megatron's actual speed and acceleration. Jump is pretty cut and dry. I am not sure how to accomplish what it seems we are all after, but they have to do something different - I think most people agree there.

Thank you. Once I get the general base tests done and if they have positive results I plan on using shuttle times and such go truly flesh out players and thus make allowances for the exceptions like megatron.