Rex Dickson on The Sim Perspective NOW

[dghustla]

Quote: Originally Posted by ThrowBack

Exactly. Why doesn't anyone bring up MVP baseball in The Show forums or in the comment sections of any of their articles/videos? MVP was a classic sports game that was cut short just like 2K football, but The Show is so good that it made us all forget about that game. The Show took every feature that MVP had and improved upon it. The same can't be said about Madden over 2K.

He didn't say not to bring it up. He's just saying how can the developers visit a site, read Madden forums and take anything from it when in 2 pages every forum turns into Madden vs 2k and EA sucks. go read the top forums from last week. There are posters who are posting criticism that could benefit the dev team and then there are ppl who are just saying "ea sucks", "madden will never be 2k", "bring 2k back". And its their right to say those things, but why say them in madden form that's about a madden trailer?

I posted a forum a topic "what would it take for madden to be a success this year to you" and there are posters saying "for madden to have the worst sales ever", "for them to give up the license to 2k", "madden sucks it will never be good". I'm not offend by these post, ppl can voice their opinion. But Rex is saying that if ppl want the devs to be apart of the community then keep on topic in the forums that are about Madden and what's relative to madden.

Honestly I don't understand why that is seen as such a bad concept. Do you walk into McDonald and start talking to the Cashier about everything Burger King does better IN YOUR OPINION? What if someone showed up everyday to your job and told you, your company sucked and that you sucked, but then asked you to make changes to your product...because THEY thought it made the product better.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by dghustla

He didn't say not to bring it up. He's just saying how can the developers visit a site, read Madden forums and take anything from it when in 2 pages every forum turns into Madden vs 2k and EA sucks. go read the top forums from last week. There are posters who are posting criticism that could benefit the dev team and then there are ppl who are just saying "ea sucks", "madden will never be 2k", "bring 2k back". And its their right to say those things, but why say them in madden form that's about a madden trailer? I posted a forum a topic "what would it take for madden to be a success this year to you" and there are posters saying "for madden to have the worst sales ever", "for them to give up the license to 2k", "madden sucks it will never be good". I'm not offend by these post, ppl can voice their opinion. But Rex is saying that if ppl want the devs to be apart of the community then keep on topic in the forums that are about Madden and what's relative to madden. Honestly I don't understand why that is seen as such a bad concept. Do you walk into McDonald and start talking to the Cashier about everything Burger King does better IN YOUR OPINION? What if someone showed up everyday to your job and told you, your company sucked and that you sucked, but then asked you to make changes to your product...because THEY thought it made the product better.

You obviously know very little about software development and maybe even business in general. This actually happens all the time. In fact, customers are ALWAYS talking about competition products and what they do better. They are constantly telling you as the developer as well. when you are trying to sell someone something, if they are a savvy CTO, they will be talking about the competitor's product to you quite a lot.

You are attempting to defend something here for the sake of defending since you desperately want to believe madden will be the best football game ever. Wanting other people to align with your thinking is the easiest way to fool oneself into thinking you have the ultimate product. Unfortunately, in the real world, that isn't the case. The 2k talk comes up because everything the Madden developers have told us "couldn't be done", "it's really hard", "the hardware isn't powerful enough", or whatever the excuse of the month is has been done. It was done by the 2k team with a smaller budget, inferior hardware and many less resources.

Like I said before, he shouldn't bitch about the comparisons. That is something they created on their own. Fish through them, get the info you need and make a product good enough so I can finally throw away my APF2k8 disc.

[TheBuddyHobbs]

Okay after hearing about everything 2k has done on next gen in the first year now EA has zero excuses for Madden 15 not living up to par. The next year excuses will not fly at all with me anymore. If Madden 15 isn't almost everything we want then I give up. I will give them until Madden 15. If they are still making excuses and say "maybe next year" well I quit Madden and give up on EA.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by poster

What happened to all of the power of these systems. Once again, a ton of not this year, I don't know, etc. How do you not know if HFA is a part of the game? He also mentioned how much awareness plays into the trenches. Clint said the exact opposite. Hate to keep repeating it, but need to see the talk match the gameplay in un-doctored videos. We'll see in the coming years how he lives up to the responsibility he has heaped upon himself. One last item for Rex. You don't need a forum to determine what people want in a football game. You have the official NFL license. Instead of using it to block other (likely better) developers from making a football game, how about your company use it to develop a real football game, based on the NFL. As many on this forum have previously said, you have everything you need because of the license, so that noise that was bolded in JP's post is just comical.

This. I cannot stress enough how much i agree with this bolded statement. Replicate the NFL, not arcade football.

[dghustla]

Quote: Originally Posted by GiantBlue76

You obviously know very little about software development and maybe even business in general. This actually happens all the time. In fact, customers are ALWAYS talking about competition products and what they do better. They are constantly telling you as the developer as well. when you are trying to sell someone something, if they are a savvy CTO, they will be talking about the competitor's product to you quite a lot. You are attempting to defend something here for the sake of defending since you desperately want to believe madden will be the best football game ever. Wanting other people to align with your thinking is the easiest way to fool oneself into thinking you have the ultimate product. Unfortunately, in the real world, that isn't the case. The 2k talk comes up because everything the Madden developers have told us "couldn't be done", "it's really hard", "the hardware isn't powerful enough", or whatever the excuse of the month is has been done. It was done by the 2k team with a smaller budget, inferior hardware and many less resources. Like I said before, he shouldn't bitch about the comparisons. That is something they created on their own. Fish through them, get the info you need and make a product good enough so I can finally throw away my APF2k8 disc.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you. Since obviously that is so desperately what you want. I also will not question your reading comprehension because you bolded text without taking into account the context. I will reiterate my point and leave it be since my first comment was misinterpreted. I explicitly stated DO YOU WALK INTO MCDONALDs and talk to the Cashier about everything Burger King does better In your opinion? Of course ppl compare business all the time that is AMERICA.Consumer feedback is what drives entertainment and service based business in this country. But there is place and forum to do so. Complaining to the cashier at Mcdonalds about their service get's nothing done except maybe get your soda comp'd. Going to corporate and filing formal complaints, completing surveys, joining focus groups etc. is how those voices are heard. Not making butt hurt protest on messages boards. There is always room for product comparison , it's just about how those comparisons are made.

example # 2
It's one thing to say to your car dealer that the Mustang you were considering has 200hp while the Camro he is selling you only offers 180hp and to explain why the camero is better. It's another to say on his lot that Camero sucks and it's crap and it will never be Mustang. He will ask you then why did you come to a Chevy dealership? If you fail to see the difference in those approaches it's on you.

I don't care if ppl like Madden or not, i dont care if ppl share my enthusiasm or not. I don't have anything against these madden devs, 2k devs or posters on this forum. i actually find the ether on here very entertaining. When 2k was out i thought it was a solid game (which i know is a sin on this board). i don't see the big deal i play 2k bball its has bugs too i enjoy it. I dont go over there and talk about Madden. I don't expect Madden to be great this year. I'm sure i'll enjoy it and have a ton of fun with Online CFM. I expect a solid game not great and there are going to be glitches and bugs but thats in every game hell there is a game out right now that every time they "fix" a glitch the next day someone else is posting on youtube another work around. In this internet age there are always going to be ppl finding exploits. You only hope for the devs to try their best limit those and give good gameplay.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by dghustla

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you. Since obviously that is so desperately what you want. I also will not question your reading comprehension because you bolded text without taking into account the context. I will reiterate my point and leave it be since my first comment was misinterpreted. I explicitly stated DO YOU WALK INTO MCDONALDs and talk to the Cashier about everything Burger King does better In your opinion? Of course ppl compare business all the time that is AMERICA.Consumer feedback is what drives entertainment and service based business in this country. But there is place and forum to do so. Complaining to the cashier at Mcdonalds about their service get's nothing done except maybe get your soda comp'd. Going to corporate and filing formal complaints, completing surveys, joining focus groups etc. is how those voices are heard. Not making butt hurt protest on messages boards. There is always room for product comparison , it's just about how those comparisons are made. example # 2 It's one thing to say to your car dealer that the Mustang you were considering has 200hp while the Camro he is selling you only offers 180hp and to explain why the camero is better. It's another to say on his lot that Camero sucks and it's crap and it will never be Mustang. He will ask you then why did you come to a Chevy dealership? If you fail to see the difference in those approaches it's on you. I don't care if ppl like Madden or not, i dont care if ppl share my enthusiasm or not. I don't have anything against these madden devs, 2k devs or posters on this forum. i actually find the ether on here quiet entertaining. When 2k was out i thought it was a solid game (which i know is a sin on this board). i don't see the big deal i play 2k bball its has bugs to i enjoy it. I dont go over there and talk about Madden. I don't expect Madden to be great this year. I'm sure i'll enjoy it and have a ton of fun with Online CFM. I expect a solid game not great and there are going to be glitches and bugs but thats in every game hell there is a game out right now that every time they "fix" a glitch the next day someone else is posting on youtube another work around in this internet age there are always going to be ppl breaking games.

no pissing match desired here, fella. the fact of the matter is there is only one football game out. There are 2 basketball games. Apples and oranges. Also, we are talking about a message board here as well. As a developer, they need to have thick skin. The criticism and backlash was self induced. Granted, many guys on the team may not have been directly responsible for that, but that's not the problem of the consumer. The point being made is that there will always be that comparison until they can make it better. Look at what 2k just revealed for Next gen. It's mind blowing. Here we are in Madden land still wondering if player movement will be somewhat realistic. Are they trying to correct it? Yeah, it seems like they are, and I give them all of the credit in the world for that, but it still isn't my problem that their company screwed the pooch.

Like I said, he gave a great interview, seems very smart, dedicated and doing a good job. However, if he doesn't like the comparisons to 2k, then make a better game! It's that simple. Ignore them if you don't like them, but if you are looking for info, you can easily weed it out.

All that being said, there is enough info out there on how to make a football game. Someone should send Josh Looman the memo about how the injury system works in the real NFL. Or how a waiver wire works. Or how the rosters are organized. You know, having the exclusive access to all things NFL doesn't seem to be enough to know how that is supposed to work.

[LorenzoDC]

I'll just add a quick note because I assume the Tiburon crew, and maybe Rex, will be reading this thread.

As I've said before, I like the presentation sizzle, but the steak is the gameplay. I'm glad to hear about this focus on gameplay and on sim.

Ian Cummings used to hedge on sim by talking about how many - he may even have said "most" - game players don't really care about that stuff, so they have to keep the product tuned to the market. So this planting a stake down on "sim" is welcome news. It's also good to hear about the behind the scenes allocation of resources and commitment to address things we know have been longstanding problems, like warping, skating, AI, etc.

All of that is to the good.

That said, I have to say that, for me, being encouraged by words only counts for about 15% of what I care about. I need to see and feel the product.

In the end, I want to be able to play a game that feels like a real football game against the CPU. I want to see figures making what appear to be individual football plays like football players with varying talents. I want to see CPU play calling make sense situationally for the down and distance and for the score. In CFM, I want to see CPU team and roster management make sense for the team's level of development and how much of a contender it is, and I want to see that be dynamic throughout a season. I want to see trade and draft logic that go along with this dynamic, situational AI.

I want to get this stuff without making my use of the game a never ending, fruitless quest to find the unicorn of the perfect slider set to make the game remotely playable for more than a few weeks. I want substitution sliders to work and make sense from a UI perspective. Ditto penalties.

It sounds like this year, best case scenario, we will see in nextgen better offensive line and defensive line play, some better foot planting and movement, improved but still slightly hinky physics, more varied animations and better angles in the secondary. We won't get depth of receiver vs. defender interactions. A lot of other things on my list, we won't get this year. Again, this is the best case scenario.

I'm rooting for Rex and the team to get these things done. What I find as encouraging as the words about general development priorities is what sounds like candor. And here's my biggest problem with the development team for a long time, even before Rex's time.

Guys, just stop bull****ting us. For years you've been giving us hype and bull****, marketing bull****. You've provided several years' case study in how to totally screw up expectations management. You over promise and under deliver. Just stop it.

Give us more candor and acknowledgement that you understand our legitimate criticisms about the quality of the game, or lack thereof, for many years. This interview gave some of that. More candor will build more trust. Trust comes also from following through on what you say you're going to do.

I don't write that really negative stuff but I understand the frustration of those who do. If you want to stop hearing the most negative among us complain about the exclusive license or 2k or whatever, then the onus is on you. We are your customers, your market. We pay you. I understand the human reaction of the developers to not want to read that bile that gets posted, but this is the bed EA soiled. Take more steps like this to stop bull****ting us and follow through on what you say you're going to do with this mission of sim.

I'm totally rooting for you.

[roadman]

I don't think I was raised differently than anyone else in here. All people need to do is treat people the way you would want to be treated.

From time to time, a few people call out, in generalization, developers and programmers as incompetent. To me, I'm more than 1000 miles away from the Tibouron employees and I don't know them from Adam.

If I was a developer working 12/14 hr days and lurking around after work at home with a notepad, I saw that that developers are incompetent, I'd probably shut down my computer and call it a night.