Running the 3-4 out of the 4-3

[PGaither84]

I am working of a series of videos to help new players and keep them playing "sim style" football in Madden. I have seen a number of threads asking about the 3-4, so this was my topic of choice for my first video. Please let me know what you think.






In synopsis, I don't feel that Madden NFL does currently, or has every properly represented the 3-4 defense. That does not, however, mean that you can't use it or have some fun with it. You just have to do thins a bit differently, and you start by making substitution in the 4-3 defense to mimic a 3-4 front. By bringing your #2 MLB [also known as he Jack line backer] into the formation and moving one of your OLBs to DE and said DE inside to DT/NT, you can recreate a 3-4 front out of the 4-3.

It isn't a perfect solution, but it works. I feel Madden was made for the 4-3 defense, so instead of complaining about it, I just adapt to it.

In my next videos, I want to talk about my core defensive philosophy and the "chess match" that you can sort of play with Madden NFL 25. [though I use that term quite loosely]

[Plunkett]

Nice scheme I more of an offensive schemer but I liked this.

[josefrees]

Mind explaining why you think the 34 isn't right in the game? The 34 playbooks have the formations to make what you want without all the roster moves. And what if your DE you are moving inside is a speed guy?

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by josefrees

Mind explaining why you think the 34 isn't right in the game? The 34 playbooks have the formations to make what you want without all the roster moves. And what if your DE you are moving inside is a speed guy?

Good questions:

First, the 3-4 isn't represented well in Madden because Madden doesn't represent gap control/assignments. Technique doesn't matter, only ratings and a dice roll. Size and strength don't matter on the field either. In the 3-4, the defensive linemen are asked to play 2 gaps. They aren't asked to play any gaps in Madden. There are no concepts of having a force man, or getting hooked, or anything like that which go into the real life trench battles against a 3-4 or 4-3 front.

Second, Madden doesn't represent pass protection properly on the offensive side of the ball, which in turn affects you bltiz schemes. You don't "cause confusion" in blocking schemes. Heck, if you do get a "free rusher" at the QB, they game will just slide over a back side offensive linemen to pick him up. The game knows who is coming and from where. The game knows your plays. You can't out scheme the computer. You just win or lose dice rolls based in part on ratings, though mostly on the difficulty settings and slider adjustments.

Third, Madden lacks a number of plays in the 3-4 that it has in the 4-3. Just a quick look through the Facebook Madden 25 playbook AP, to get these images, and here are some examples:



There are number of other examples, but I don't like digging through that ap. It is a real pain to find what I am looking for.


Next, "What if the DE you move inside is a speed guy" Um, you shouldn't have "a speed guy" at DE if you are trying to play the 3-4. He should be a big mauler DT type. Otherwise, you are playing 4-3 style, right?

The main thing to me, is as a coach of real football, but a fan of playing football video games, I try to stick to "realistic" strategies and call as much as possible. Madden plays more like High School football at best rather than NFL level football, but it is what it is. I can play a more realistic 4-3 scheme with my 3-4 aesthetics.

[macbranson]

Another trick u can do is use the 5-2 defense and pretty much do the same thing. Plug in the right personnel and run a 3-4 defense out if it. Put your OLBs at DE, plug another MLB in next to MLB #1 then plug in your linemen. The 5-2 is set up like a blitzing 3-4 defense already, so it works well for confusing a human opponent. What sucks is that the 5-2 formation has a very limited number of plays.

[josefrees]

The pinch zone looks like 3-4 Solid formation. The cover three play you show in the 4-3 look exactly like 3-4 over/under formation and the nickel one you have is the 2-4-5 (which has the exact same plays as the 4-3 base nickel package except the DEs move inside and the OLBs play at the DE spot.

Off course, madden doesn't have gaps and all that--but that defeats the purpose of any defense doesn't it? If there aren't any gap assignments it doesn't matter whether you are playing with one or two gaps.

Have you considered messing around with the style like the Seahawks run? One pass rushing DE, one run stopping DE, and two DTs? With the LB opposite the pass rushing DE being a pass rusher specialist? The OLB on the pass rushing DEs side pretty much is a jack by definition (KJ Wright irl)

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by josefrees

The pinch zone looks like 3-4 Solid formation. The cover three play you show in the 4-3 look exactly like 3-4 over/under formation and the nickel one you have is the 2-4-5 (which has the exact same plays as the 4-3 base nickel package except the DEs move inside and the OLBs play at the DE spot. Off course, madden doesn't have gaps and all that--but that defeats the purpose of any defense doesn't it? If there aren't any gap assignments it doesn't matter whether you are playing with one or two gaps. Have you considered messing around with the style like the Seahawks run? One pass rushing DE, one run stopping DE, and two DTs? With the LB opposite the pass rushing DE being a pass rusher specialist? The OLB on the pass rushing DEs side pretty much is a jack by definition (KJ Wright irl)

Firstly, Madden doesn't have any form of gap control, but at least it is programed to kind of represent 1 gap assignments. That way you can at least better pretend that you are playing 4-3 football. Keep in mind, that one of my main goals here is how to use your 3-4 personnel effectively in a game that doesn't represent the 3-4 properly.

Secondly, the 3-4 doesn't have a cover 4 version of that pinch 4. they have a cover two hard with flats, or cover two soft with all hooks. Those are good, but no 4 deep. I like to call that play inside the 15 where deep coverage isn't really deep and the field is compressed. However, in Madden 25 [unlike 11 and 12] the cover 2 deep safeties don't protect against the fade routes at all, so any receiver who runs a fade or corner gets wide open against those looks. That's why I go cover 4 and the corners can come up and make a play on any short routes.

Thirdly, the 3-4 does not have any cover 3 cloud looks where both safeties and one CB cover deep. I go into custom palybooks and can't find any. If you can, let me know. The 4-3 has those two cloud varients I poted along with some blitzes I could find pictures of in the Facebook application.

Finally, regarding "what the Seahawks do" well, yeah, that is pretty much what we are doing here. Either Aldon smith is rushing fro mthe edge and Ray Mac is the run stuffer, or Brooks is rushing from the edge and Justin is the run stuffer.

One of the strengths of the 49ers defense is that their front 7 is so good that they don't need to stack the box. They play their 2 gap assignments so well in real life that only Beat Mode M. Lynch has been able to run for 100 yard a game on that team in the last 3 years. Everyone else gets stuffed. That allows the 49ers to better defend play action and better coverage in general. Their real life problem is inconsistency in applying pressure. In most games you will see the QB hold onto the ball all day and not have anyone to throw to... and have little to on pressure. Eventually they find someone open. On 4 or 5 plays a game they will finally get there and have pretty sack numbers for the game, but on the other 30 passes they gave the QB 6 seconds to throw. [but now I am getting off topic]

For me, the 4-3 is just better represented as a whole. It has more plays, better plays [with the exception of sting pinch zone], and that is how the game is programed to deal with interactions. here is no 1 gap or 2 gap, but at least there are one on one match ups which is as close to 1 gap style as you can get for Madden. Of the two options, I'll take the one that at least pretends to be somewhat realistic rather than the one that isn't represented in any shape or form.

[Xxwarped71xX]

Quote: Originally Posted by josefrees

Mind explaining why you think the 34 isn't right in the game? The 34 playbooks have the formations to make what you want without all the roster moves. And what if your DE you are moving inside is a speed guy?

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

Good questions: First, the 3-4 isn't represented well in Madden because Madden doesn't represent gap control/assignments. Technique doesn't matter, only ratings and a dice roll. Size and strength don't matter on the field either. In the 3-4, the defensive linemen are asked to play 2 gaps. They aren't asked to play any gaps in Madden. There are no concepts of having a force man, or getting hooked, or anything like that which go into the real life trench battles against a 3-4 or 4-3 front. Second, Madden doesn't represent pass protection properly on the offensive side of the ball, which in turn affects you bltiz schemes. You don't "cause confusion" in blocking schemes. Heck, if you do get a "free rusher" at the QB, they game will just slide over a back side offensive linemen to pick him up. The game knows who is coming and from where. The game knows your plays. You can't out scheme the computer. You just win or lose dice rolls based in part on ratings, though mostly on the difficulty settings and slider adjustments. Third, Madden lacks a number of plays in the 3-4 that it has in the 4-3. Just a quick look through the Facebook Madden 25 playbook AP, to get these images, and here are some examples: There are number of other examples, but I don't like digging through that ap. It is a real pain to find what I am looking for. Next, "What if the DE you move inside is a speed guy" Um, you shouldn't have "a speed guy" at DE if you are trying to play the 3-4. He should be a big mauler DT type. Otherwise, you are playing 4-3 style, right? The main thing to me, is as a coach of real football, but a fan of playing football video games, I try to stick to "realistic" strategies and call as much as possible. Madden plays more like High School football at best rather than NFL level football, but it is what it is. I can play a more realistic 4-3 scheme with my 3-4 aesthetics.

I believe what he meant his question to be was "why would you move a DE from a 4-3 to DT in a 3-4?" which is what you stated in your original post. I think you got mixed up in converting your defenses. a DE would really only go to DT if you were going from 3-4 to a 4-3.

and if you believe that size and strength don't matter in the game then why make a point to say you need a mauler type at DE in a 3-4? just go with pure speed and BSH right? ignore strength at all cost right?