Ian your Poll about Run/Pass Commit

[LBzrule]

That thread got crowded, but I just want to really flesh out my thoughts on this. The debate right now is whether it should be removed and made automatic or whether it should be moved out of gameplay and either into pre-play or play call.

After thinking it through, my thinking is this. If you are going to keep it, it should be pre play and post snap (as it already is). I argue for it for both because defensively, that's how it actually is. It's strictly situational. Let me give a few scenarios.

It's 1st and 10 on the first drive of the game you are on defense. My question to anyone, do you commit to anything in the huddle or pre-play here? There is no way you should be committing to anything at this point regardless of whether it is a huddle call, or pre-play. You have to read and react here. So you commit based on your read. The ball is snapped, the Olinemen stand straight up, I got my read, it's pass or a draw, so I pass commit. I'll live with it if it is a draw.

Let's say same drive you are still on defense. 3rd and inches. Now here comes my pre play run commit. I'm calling cover 1 or 0 with everyone in the box and we are committing to the run all the way unless they come out in 5 WR. Even then I'm rolling cover 0 and blitzing right up the gut. BUT here is what is important for you guys to fix. Let's say the offense is in 4WR formation on 3rd and inches. I'm in cover 0, committing to the run. The corners should not be committing to the run if they are man up on WR's. Take this off for the Cornerbacks.

Let's do another situation. I'm on defense again. 2nd and 6. The offense is in a base I formation. I don't want to commit to anything here pre-play. This is a highly unpredictable down. I need my read. The ball is hiked. I see the guard fire straight out and coming at me, it's run so I run commit. But it might be play action, which is why I always control the ILB by the TE . Again though, take the corners off of the commit.

Last situation. I got the offense backed up. 3rd and 20. I already want to commit in my play call or pre play.

The way defensive football is played calls for both to be available. There are certain situations in which I need to make my read before I decide. There are other situations where I just want to commit automatically prior to the snap. I think both should be available and neither should be attached to the hit stick.

[BezO]

Personally, I need it pre-snap, so I can go for this.
Edit: And it would be cool to run/pass commit individual players.

LB, does the run/pass commit post snap negate the play recognition ratings? How do you stop users from negating thier player's skills?

[rhombic21]

I think the feature needs to be re-worked, but it is potentially worth saving.

My main problem with it being the way that it is now is this:

1) Run commit impacts cornerbacks and safeties way more than it should, so that the penalties for run committing are too great. So there is no balance between run and pass commit. I feel that this needs to be altered. Also, for pass commit, it seems like it should have more of a tangible effect in the running game. I just don't think people should be able to pass commit every time.

2) I feel that the game is set up so that if the user DOESN'T use the commit feature, players bite on play action in unrealistic situations. I would like to see this adjusted. In reality, there should be no need to pass commit in obvious passing situations, and the AI should develop an ability (based on ratings) to interpret down, distance, and previous playcalling tendency in order to determine how aggressively it should react to run threats. The purpose of this feature should be to OVERRIDE those reactions, based on coach intuitions. Basically the analogy is a defensive coach telling his players to play either run or pass based on his own gut feelings.

3) I do not like having it tied to the R-Stick during the play. First, I feel like there are many times when I would like to pass commit, but the command is not registered properly, and I end up doing a "big hit" animation instead. Also, if you are controlling players near the LOS, like linebackers or linemen, where you have to react to the ball suddenly after the snap, it is difficult to do that and execute the command simultaneously. Particularly if you are trying to do something like manually blitz with a linebacker and commit at the same time. Second, I would like to see the R-Stick used for other purposes, particularly with defensive engagement moves for DL/LBs.

So my preference is then basically to make it pre-snap. Maybe it could be post-huddle, pre-snap. So not part of the defensive playcall screen, but rather some sort of defensive hot route/adjustment. I feel like this would make it easier to be sure that my players are going to run commit when I want them to run commit, and vice versa, without having to worry about timing a stick maneuver.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Personally, I need it pre-snap, so I can go for this. Edit: And it would be cool to run/pass commit individual players. LB, does the run/pass commit post snap negate the play recognition ratings? How do you stop users from negating thier player's skills?

I can see the need for it pre-snap. But my argument is you wouldn't use it pre-snap in every situation. Depending on how a game unfolds, there may be more situations that require you to read and react and commit post snap than not.


Per your last question. To me that's exactly what it does and brings up a big problem as to why we have it in the first place and why not allow the play call and play recognition ratings determine what the guy is going to do. Secondly, even if it is pre-snap it would do the same thing, namely negate the ratings. I mean let's think about it. You have a cornerback in man coverage on 3rd and 10. What difference does it make for you to tell him to commit to the pass? He's already committed to his man so he's already committed to the pass or should be, just based off the play call and the down and distance.

But if we are going to keep it, to me it should be available for both pre and post snap.

[rhombic21]

But let's look at your examples. You see the linemen standing up and firing out. How realistic is it that EVERY defensive player should be able to see the same thing that you're able to see? How many players in real life would be able to see this? Would defensive ends be able to see whether or not guards are firing off? Would the deep safety? Would linebackers who are positioned outside the tackle box? Would Cornerbacks? And is it realistic to be able to react manually to this read, rather than having ratings govern player abilities to react to the types of things that you're describing here? My understanding is that reading run/pass is one of the primary factors that governs MLB ability. Haven't you just made those ratings irrelevant, since the user can over-ride them?

As far as the pre-play effect, I feel as though it is still legitimate. It is the equivalent of a defensive coach telling his players to IGNORE their normal keys, and to specifically play either run or pass. This would be employed when the coach feels very strongly that the other team is going to do one thing or the other, and wants his players to aggressively pursue his gut feeling.

In terms of the mechanics of the ways in which this is converted, I think we are in agreement that it needs to be re-worked. It should primarily only impact defensive ends and linebackers. Cornerbacks and safeties always play pass first, and defensive tackles primarily play run first (except in obvious passing downs). It needs to be made such that run commit doesn't result in easy long touchdown passes because CBs and deep safeties come flying up to the LOS.

[kmart2180]

I think it makes more sense pre-snap. But make that if you press run commit pre-snap you are going to be in trouble if its a pass. I want people to pay for using it. And if you do guess correctly have it work out great.

Anything after the snap should bve on the defensive players awareness ONLY. You should not be able to tell your 10 other players that its a run after the ball is snapped. To me that is cheating. Let a Rey Lewis/B. Urlacher sniff it out themselves and a average lb take a longer time to understand whats happening. Basically the higher the the awareness the faster the reaction.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

But let's look at your examples. You see the linemen standing up and firing out. How realistic is it that EVERY defensive player should be able to see the same thing that you're able to see? How many players in real life would be able to see this? Would defensive ends be able to see whether or not guards are firing off? Would the deep safety? Would linebackers who are positioned outside the tackle box? Would Cornerbacks? And is it realistic to be able to react manually to this read, rather than having ratings govern player abilities to react to the types of things that you're describing here? My understanding is that reading run/pass is one of the primary factors that governs MLB ability. Haven't you just made those ratings irrelevant, since the user can over-ride them?

It isn't realistic at all. Just like it isn't realistic when you are on offense playing QB that you see the entire field all at once. The DE's wouldn't read the Guards, they would read the tackles that are directly in front of them and if the tackles stand straight up the DE knows it's either pass or draw, so they immediately fire out in pass rush mode. If the tackles head reaches to either side the DE knows it is a run. Linebackers positioned outside the Tackle box read the TE and the tackle. In real football the line provides an interpretive lens for what the offense is going to do. Defenses don't just get out there on the field and start guessing. And yes, I have made those ratings irrelevant. The entire run/pass commit system does, whether pre or post snap.

Quote:

As far as the pre-play effect, I feel as though it is still legitimate. It is the equivalent of a defensive coach telling his players to IGNORE their normal keys, and to specifically play either run or pass. This would be employed when the coach feels very strongly that the other team is going to do one thing or the other, and wants his players to aggressively pursue his gut feeling.

There are situations where I would want to do that, but I wouldn't want to do that for an entire game. And depending on how the game is shaping up.

Quote:

In terms of the mechanics of the ways in which this is converted, I think we are in agreement that it needs to be re-worked. It should primarily only impact defensive ends and linebackers. Cornerbacks and safeties always play pass first, and defensive tackles primarily play run first (except in obvious passing downs). It needs to be made such that run commit doesn't result in easy long touchdown passes because CBs and deep safeties come flying up to the LOS.

If we use it post snap it negates play recognition ratings. If it is pre-play, I'm not so sure it doesn't do the same thing. Secondly, I think two perspectives are being presupposed here. The one perspective is that of a defensive coordinator/coach saying commit to X. The other perspective is a player saying I gotta read X and it'll lead me.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by kmart2180

I think it makes more sense pre-snap. But make that if you press run commit pre-snap you are going to be in trouble if its a pass. I want people to pay for using it. And if you do guess correctly have it work out great. Anything after the snap should bve on the defensive players awareness ONLY. You should not be able to tell your 10 other players that its a run after the ball is snapped. To me that is cheating. Let a Rey Lewis/B. Urlacher sniff it out themselves and a average lb take a longer time to understand whats happening. Basically the higher the the awareness the faster the reaction.

But see that's the thing. I don't play defense to GUESS every down. That's why I think it is good pre-play situationally, but who would use this an entire game, every down, in this way?

Lastly, I don't want the defense to be more handicapped in this game than it has been for who knows how long.