How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

[LiquorLogic]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

FYI: A new "engine" isn't always needed. People said the same thing about 2k bball and now look at them. They just need to keep hacking away and cleaning up what they can every year.

I'm not really into BBall games, but was 2k BBall as seriously flawed as Madden has been over the years ? To me, when looking at other sports titles, even some that are released by EA, Madden is far behind those titles. Madden needs a serious overhaul in my opinion.

[PVarck31]

If the rumors are true that Ian wanted a new engine after 09 then could one assume the current engine, or parts of the engine is handicapping them?

If not a new engine then they need to make fixing the things that are to numerous to mention their top priority. Not fixing locomotion and run blocking one year, then passing, and pass blocking the next because they have to get in a questionable back of the box feature that will be gone in a year or two.

[silence1206]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

FYI: A new "engine" isn't always needed. People said the same thing about 2k bball and now look at them. They just need to keep hacking away and cleaning up what they can every year.

This is pretty much it. Does anyone in this thread understand what a game engine actually is? There are things this engine does well. Graphics particularly. But, outside of that, they can recode other parts of the same engine. They have a good base. Just needs some serious reconsideration.

At the end of the day, every company has a particular style in which it will choose to implement a game engine. And, EA appears very set in their ways as far as their approach to football game programming. I think the question bigger than "does madden need a new engine?" is "When will EA make a serious paradigm shift in the way it looks at programming football games?"

That's why I love competition in football games. Backbreaker is a wildly new paradigm in football gaming. 2k had their own paradigm which brought out unique football gaming. And I am very unhappy that the NFL license is now exclusive. It seriously hurts competition and discourages other companies from bringing alternative forms of football gaming to the consumer.

[Pared]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

I'm not really into BBall games, but was 2k BBall as seriously flawed as Madden has been over the years ? To me, when looking at other sports titles, even some that are released by EA, Madden is far behind those titles. Madden needs a serious overhaul in my opinion.

Some say it was, but I never thought so. This is a similar scenario.

If EA had the tech to provide an amazing presentation package and actually spent time putting it in, you'd notice the gameplay issues less. The "wow" factor would distract many guys.

Then, if they added cool player specific stuff, you'd then have more signature style to completely draw you in as if you're really playing an NFL team and players.

Lastly, they can fix much of the issues if they redid the playbooks. Would take a HUGE amount of work, but it can be done.

Saying "scrap everything" is a terrible idea. There's lots of good here, and many people saw it last year. The over-powered offense seems to be killing the game for most this year (and same franchise).

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I never said it was "innovative". Innovation isn't necessary, function is. Locomotion is a functional representation of player movement, where as the previous system was pure video game. I don't see how whether a feature is a 'returning feature' or a 'new innovation' is relevant to the question at hand. Kinda sorta. A batter doesn't think "the ball is going to cross the plate 4 inches, 45 degrees from the low outside corner" and then swing the bat at that point. Rather, while he does have to have a relative idea where the ball is going to make contact, it's mostly hand-eye coordination than a conscious 'aim'. A natural swing is going to go where you are looking. It's just how human mechanics work. I despise cursor systems for this reason. Quarterbacks don't "aim" their throws. Again, location of a throw is a natural function of technique and hand-eye coordination. Look at the spot you want the ball to go too and let your mechanics get it there. It isn't a conscious thought process, and to take away the instinctive, reflexive aspect of passing (or hitting) by introducing cursors is not representative of the sport. The only way I can see to significantly improve on it is to make it more route-and-timing based rather than simply reacting to where the receiver is going. Having played QB, after so many repetitions, it becomes instinctive. You don't "aim" passes. I'm not saying Backbreaker didn't accomplish its mission, I'm saying that the tech is only better than what Madden has in the visual department. It looks better. That's it. Otherwise, it is not as functional a representation as Madden. Madden looks canned, but a much greater variety of results of contact occur in Madden. Broken tackles, extended tackles, branching broken tackles, etc.. No, it's not nearly as visually enticing, but it's much more tactically realistic. It's like comparing Madden to a text-sim of football. Sure, a dot on a plain green background doesn't look as realistic as Madden, but the variety of outcomes means in the end, it's more tactically realistic. And what I'm saying is, from a sim-oriented person (which doens't apply to everyone) its more important to me that the game be tactically sound as a representation of football than it does look like football. Flawed animations don't bother me as much as great animations that allow no variety in result. Frank Gore does not go down because someone's hand brushed his cleats. Is Madden a great representation of NFL football? No, not yet, but it's a lot closer even in the tackling department than BackBreaker. And what Locomotion and Real Assignment AI illustrate is that A.) The team in place is capable and B.) The team in place is willing. Neither are, by definition, "innovative", but they are functional and the best representation of what they seek to emulate on the market today. They do matter, quite a bit, though not to the extent that we'd all like to see. When you spend as much time on sliders as I have, you can see the differences. The fact remains that the differences are too subtle, I agree, and that needs correction. I never called it an innovation. It isn't "innovative", it's logical. Its the right step. Maybe it should have been done 15 years ago. It wasn't. Now it has been. Why does it matter when? This team took over just prior to the release of Madden 09 and in 2 years have left what the previous team, who ran things for 4 years, in the dust. It "isn't there yet", but did you really expect a 1 year turnaround? It took FIFA 3 years, it took NHL 3 years... and those two games didn't have the following Madden does when they began their adjustments. I would venture to say that nothing NHL or FIFA have done are particularly innovative. Rather, they're common sense fundamentally sound changes that made the games more realistic and, by extension, more fun. Well, the reason I think NCAA is "so much better" is because it's better tuned. On the surface, it's the same game. The underlying odds and ends make it far better. Its tactically sound, for the most part. The ratings do matter, far more than in Madden. Maybe if you look no deeper than the stats of a given game, I can see not feeling that, but taking the time to study your roster and observe their performance makes it quite clear that the ratings don't just matter, they're downright critical in NCAA.

I never meant to imply that you called Locomotion or Run Blocking an innovation. I was speaking in generalities, because there are tons of people that post who DO claim that they are. What I was saying to you directly is that I don't consider the fact that they put locomotion back in, and got run blocking some what right, as an indication that the good times are about to roll, Madden is on track, and the dev team finally gets it. You had commented that these WERE indications for you that there are good things to come. I just think it's them finally getting around to putting back in stuff that was in before, and that there is a chance that we will repeat this dance again, where they take stuff out and put it back in. Just my opinion, but I do have history to point to to support my opinion. I hope you are right and the team finally does get it, I'm just skeptical, and justifiably so in my opinion.

As far as aiming in sports goes, you are getting caught up in the semantics of what coaches and broadcasters tell you you should not do. When a pitcher is performing badly, people say that it looks like he is aiming and shoot just let it rip. Or if a Basketball player bricks some shots, people will say that he is aiming and should just feel it. That's jargon. That's colorful language. It's not in any way shape or form literal. Make no mistake, when you shoot a basketball, or throw a pitch, or swing a bat or racket (look at a slow mo close up of a Baseball or Tennis player swinging and tell me that their eyes don't follow the ball prior to contacting it) or, yes even, when you throw a Football. Just because it happens in a split second does not mean you didn't aim. There is no way in hell that you would ever complete a pass if you didn't aim. Now you can become inaccurate when you change something in your mechanics to try and "guide" the ball (another euphemism) more than usual, but there is never a time when you are not aiming. Never. Never a time when you are not doing complex physics equations on the fly, in the blink of an eye, as an athlete. Never. So while it may not feel like there is a conscious effort to perform your task, you are most certainly aiming.

Now that that is out of the way, with regards to a Football game, while using a cursor may not mimic the actual process of what you do in real life as a QB, it is unfortunate, but it is a videogame. Until there is a VR Football game, or until motion controls become more true to life in their functions, you are going to have to make sacrifices somewhere. Now maybe cursor based passing for you is too great a sacrifice. I will not begrudge you that. Different strokes. All I am saying is that any mechanic that does not allow the QB to place the pass anywhere that he wants at any time, but rather is tethered to a receiver, like it is now, or even a route, like in RBP, does not represent the sport any better. In my opinion, it represents it less. Not being in control of the placement of a pass, but merely spectating and hoping for the best due SOLELY to ratings, is analogous to having a simple timing based swing mechanic in a Baseball game, and is the epitome of "videogamey". Again, as always, people can feel free to disagree.

On the Backbreaker vs Madden, and which one is a more functional or realistic representation of certain aspects of the sport, I'll just leave that alone and agree to disagree, because I don't think that Madden is realistic at all, whether we are talking visually or otherwise, on MANY levels. I could go into detail, but this isn't the thread, or probably even the site for that matter, to do so. I'm open to PM or IM, if you even care that is, to continue that train of thought.

[Cryolemon]

Quote: Originally Posted by bxgoods

Your not getting a new engine this generation, we're probably 2 Maddens away from the XBOX 720 or Playstation 4 coming out. It makes no sense to make a new engine now.

I think it'll be longer than that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Exonerated

i hope madden gets Move support. They need to shift development onto PS3. PS3 madden sales are set to eclipse 360 madden sales next year. 2 years at the latest.

That's easier said than done I think.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

Some say it was, but I never thought so. This is a similar scenario. If EA had the tech to provide an amazing presentation package and actually spent time putting it in, you'd notice the gameplay issues less. The "wow" factor would distract many guys. Then, if they added cool player specific stuff, you'd then have more signature style to completely draw you in as if you're really playing an NFL team and players. Lastly, they can fix much of the issues if they redid the playbooks. Would take a HUGE amount of work, but it can be done. Saying "scrap everything" is a terrible idea. There's lots of good here, and many people saw it last year. The over-powered offense seems to be killing the game for most this year (and same franchise).

While I understand your point, I can't see how you can say that scrap everything, which I personally have never said by the way, is a terrible idea, when you don't know what the new game would look like. Yes, it could be worse, but it also could be better. Much better.

There is not one engine that Madden is based on, but there ARE engines, plural, that it is based on. Yes, you can add engines, or swap them out, or add classes, or swap them out, but you still need to modify existing base classes or engines or lines of code, to make it all work. So while it is possible that what is there can be made better, and maybe the perfect sim Football game is possible with their existing tech, we have no way of knowing if it would be almost as hard an undertaking to get all these new innovations working with what already exists, as it would be to start from scratch with a different base.

When they originally designed their game, they designed it with how they thought it should play in mind. If their thinking of how the game should play actually changes, then it is also possible that the tools that they need to accomplish their new vision needs to change as well.

Just saying.

[GaryT531]

No way would I trust EA with building a new engine at this point. We might get stuck with unplayable games like Madden 06-09 all over again.

I'm not hardcore about football like many of you, so I understand and totally respect how you feel and what you are saying in terms of wanting something that resembles the NFL both strategy wise and gameplay wise. I think that the franchise is finally in the right direction once again and if they keep building on it every year by the end of the xbox 360 era we will have a complete game like how Madden 05 was at the end of the PS2 era. Re-build the engine when a new line of next gen systems come out. That's my opinion.