There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

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  • DarkFudge
    Banned
    • Jul 2002
    • 344

    #1

    There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

    After closely watching the playoffs these past weeks with all the deep shots downfield (and midfield) it became even more apparent that MADDEN, over the past several years has something or several things out of whack in the way it depicts the mid to deep passing game.

    Tell me what you think...because I think I have narrowed down the culprits but would love some other perspectives from you guys.


    -Defensive backs and LBs are just too magnetically and unrealistically capable of sticking with Recievers stride for stride.

    -The passing physics and trajectories dont yield realistic results. Deep Balls always seem to be underthrown yielding reciever(and ball hawking secondary) to just stop, turn around and do a pop tart jump animation for the ball.

    -there's never any fight or bobble or extra physics involved in the reception. Its a very simplistic trigger of either a receiver catch/drop or a defender bat/pick. No other possible dynamic variations inbetween. (Madden designers spent so much time trying to develop a more interactive and dynamic running game over the years with added abilities to juke, truck, stifff arm, break tackles, even stumble but yet the passing game has felt so unispired and lacking of variety like bobbles, more variety and interaction between WR and defender)


    -because there's no physics imposed, DBs can and will just warp in front of a WR to distrupt a pass if the game engine decides that the player ratings warrant it

    - No way to really control the direction and vicinity of a thrown pass other than hitting the reciever button. Pushing the directional stick and controlling Loft isnt nearly as dynamic and immersive as in older generations of the game and many of the times will wind up right in a defenders scripted hands when you werent even aiming it in that vicinity. Almost as if the engine took over again to satisfy a Defensive Player Rating


    -The field is either to small or the players are slightly too large. Either way these proportions and balance seem to yield a more congested looking field with less spacing for bad passes to drop in uncaught.


    I dunno, I've just been watching alot of Victor Cruz's receptions and how he can dynamically break his stride and break free off a route, come back, seperate and make a variety of basket style catches and bobble and secure the ball as he's falling and realize that Madden totally lacks this level of excitement and immersion in its passing game.

    I then loaded up NCAA 04 and 06 and could see a huge difference in the wide open feel of the passing game and the players in the secondary and how much spacing there is to have the ability to drop some passes in without having the defenders all over your reciever like piranahs on every throw.

    Also if you watch many of these NFL games....a safety just doesnt have as much time as it has in Madden to get to the play and break up every deep pass the way they effectively do in these video games. Im not sure if thats a result of a field to narrow, players moving too fast and/or covering too much ground, or if its the slow lofty velocity of deep passes.


    What are your thoughts on all this?
  • Shroom
    Rookie
    • Jul 2011
    • 255

    #2
    Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

    I could not agree more. The passing game in madden seems so bland, and I think that it is one of the things that EA really needs to revamp next year. As you said, there is no variety in the catches and interactions between the defensive backs and receivers. I would love to see animations that allow the receiver and Db to fight for the ball, bobble it, etc. The whole system is very disappointing.
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    • xblake16x
      Pro
      • Jan 2009
      • 620

      #3
      Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

      I don't remember who said this but it has stuck with me.

      We shoud be able to differentiate our throws using the the shoulder buttons. I don't know what 4 (or more, depending on the pressure sensitivity of the buttons) different throws would be but each should be used in certain situations. Each would have a velocity and arc unique to its own.

      Need to fit it in between the safety and linebackers? There is a throw for that.

      High to where only your receiver can get it?

      Towards a receiver but out of bounds/way over throw or underthrow...

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      • SageInfinite
        Stop The GOAT Talk
        • Jul 2002
        • 11896

        #4
        Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

        Totally agree, the passing game is pretty sad. Also the catch animations need a complete overhaul. Most of them are terrible where the receiver slides/warps to make the catch instead of catching it in his stride.

        Also as mentioned, the vertical game is non-existent. Receiver rarely go up to make big time grabs. The route running isn't bad, but when db's don't have animations and just slide and warp and mirror receivers it makes the decent route running animations pointless, because the db's don't simulate covering a route, like the receivers do running it.

        Also the lack of outside rush an the abundance of inside rush doesn't make for a realistic pocket to throw from.
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        • N51_rob
          Faceuary!
          • Jul 2003
          • 14805

          #5
          Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

          I agree there is something not right with the passing game. It seems like there are a lot of routes, that are useless in the game, because a.)the receivers run terrible routes, b.) the DBs never break on a route or "blow" a coverage (whats the point of having man and zone ratings?)instead they just mirror the receiver c.) the routes take way to long to develop in relations to the rest of the play. Sluggos are useless, most play action is useless, if your opponent sends a blitz. The passing game lacks an organic feel to it. What you saw in the conference championships in the passing game, isn't what you see if you play Madden.
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          • sportyguyfl31
            MVP
            • Nov 2005
            • 4745

            #6
            Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

            I was talking about this with a fellow online league member a couple of weeks ago.

            I was observing the passing stats and even the very best QBs were putting up astronomical INT #'s.

            Sure..people were throwing up good TD and yardage numbers with the Brees, Rivers, Mannings, Brady's of the world, but also putting up 20+ INTs.

            I am convinced that, being conservative, at least half the INTs thrown by people, are the fault of the user, and the other half is simply because the game will not allow you to make certain types of throws.

            I know how to read coverages, but in this game, you cannot always trust your eyes. A guy can look open and a defender can make a play that he has no business making, for a variety of reasons.

            Most of us pass the ball the exact same way: Slants, Curls, Ins Drags, Streak, and a occasional Post Route....maybe a Corner route if you get a good AI day.

            There are a whole slew of pass plays that I never call, or have to hot route to simpler routes, just to get them to work.

            We should have the freedom to throw every route the game gives us, by now.

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            • baller7345
              Pro
              • Sep 2010
              • 510

              #7
              Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

              Originally posted by N51_rob
              Sluggos are useless, most play action is useless, if your opponent sends a blitz.
              Sluggos are very useful. Proof in the form of this:

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              • carnalnirvana
                Pro
                • Jan 2007
                • 1981

                #8
                Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                i agree with TC, about the passing game not being varied enough and imo its the speed ratings and the cpu ability to knock passes down with amazing accuracy for the user and cpu....

                look at vernon davis two TD catches today you can see he is clearly faster than and safety or LB the giants had but in madden the ratings dont show this properly, he should be rated at least 10 speed points faster than them imo but in madden he may be 2-3pts faster

                i know seperation isn't only about speed but if guys are faster changes your play calling, there is no reason to ever play zone in madden because any DB can cover any WR

                thats why defenders have soo much range especially safeties, they all are as fast as ed reed making the field seem small.

                if madden had a global ratings editor like nba live i would immediately take 12 speed points from everyone then manually boost the maybe 10 players with true 90+ speed

                you wanna see awareness truly matter make players slower so they have to anticipate instead of getting speed boosts after the ball is thrown

                i understand why the game is soooo poorly designed = ONLINE PLAY

                most online/casual gamers wont know how counter a player like V Davis, especially with their nano blitz, blitz with 7 players per play stupidity so sim ballers get stuck with LB who must perform/cover like PRIMETIME to bail them out..
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                • Big FN Deal
                  Banned
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 5993

                  #9
                  Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                  Man, you guys have pretty much nailed it but I will add on about the way defenders and players in general often cover ground in Madden. I keep thinking it might have something to do with the game being created for the god-view prospective instead of players actually designed to interact on a virtual scaled field with the gameplay view panned out. I know the player movement and momentum seems off, with the way players can just quickly change directions but that's so strange considering all the focus placed on addressing that during M10's development cycle. However, I am sure every safety in real life could potentially look like Ed Reed, covering way more ground then seems possible if they could see the field from the god-view. lol

                  All that said, it really may all boil down to the arcadey User speed burst/sprint button in Madden that's the main culprit. If you take that away or make it less "super" or instant, then every safety running up in the box, would probably not be able to get back to defend a deep pass anymore.

                  EDIT* I made this started this post before carnalnirvana's post had actually posted. You pretty much summed up exactly what I was trying to say, good post.
                  Last edited by Big FN Deal; 01-23-2012, 07:24 AM.

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                  • Zain84
                    Rookie
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 8

                    #10
                    Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                    I just wanted to add to this good thread you know what else sucks when a defender makes a pick int you can hit him hard and you can never break it uP

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                    • kmart2180
                      Pro
                      • Jul 2006
                      • 892

                      #11
                      Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                      Im pretty sure ive said this every year since next gen but they need to find a way to make the field bigger/more room to get open. The way it currently is, everything feels crammed together. Past gen was so much better in this aspect of the game.

                      There is not enough windows in current Madden to throw the ball. When the defense is in zone its even worst because lb's/db's warp into position to make plays. When Im throwing a 25-30 yard pass over the middle, I dont want a LB playing 5 yds from scrimmage batting my ball down.

                      I also believe this is the reason we never see just off target/over/under throws that just hit the turf. Either shrink the players abit or expand the distance of the field.
                      Madden25 next gen cant come soon enough!!!

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                      • Broncos86
                        Orange and Blue!
                        • May 2009
                        • 5505

                        #12
                        Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                        This isn't really new news. The passing game has been a sticking point for me for years. It's been the source of talk for route-based passing, of CBs that react too quickly, WRs that aren't aggressive, and every player's ability to see the ball without even looking.

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                        • huskerwr38
                          MVP
                          • Mar 2009
                          • 1549

                          #13
                          Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                          You guys are saying that the players are too big or the field is too small, I don't think that is it. It's that DB's (or just the defensive in general) can move side to side and backwards extremely fast (as fast as guys sprinting straight ahead) and for long periods at a time. If you watch that first Vernon Davis TD, the DB is backpedaling for like 3 seconds before he turns and runs and gets burned. In Madden, I had almost the exact same play and the DB was backpedaling with my WR stride for stride down the side line. So it was basically like someone is running backwards as fast as someone running forwards.

                          Also, DBs and LBs will literally shuffle for like 20 yards at a time at an extremely fast rate. In real life, this just doesn't happen and can't happen like it does on Madden.


                          Originally posted by Broncos86
                          This isn't really new news. The passing game has been a sticking point for me for years. It's been the source of talk for route-based passing, of CBs that react too quickly, WRs that aren't aggressive, and every player's ability to see the ball without even looking.
                          Exactly. Plus the arch of the pass on deeper routes is too low and if you try and lob it over a LB head there is too much time for the DB to pick it off.

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                          • Broncos86
                            Orange and Blue!
                            • May 2009
                            • 5505

                            #14
                            Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                            Right. It's just a slew of issues, and the passing game needs the same amount of love the running game received. At the VERY least, make WRs go up and fight for that ball. I'm just tired of WRs running downfield, trying to catch the ball on their back hip, while the CB undercuts and leaps up into the air. WRs like Larry Fitzgerald would quickly stop, come back, and leap over defenders. That's the whole point of single coverage against a guy like him. It's why you don't leave a guy like that in single coverage deep.

                            Then you talk about defenders who have wonky animations that can carry them 2 yards in less than one second, defenders who can see plays behind them with their back turned, poor ball trajectory mechanics, and a lack of route-based passing, and it's easy to see what's going on here. And I haven't even mentioned linebackers that are reacting to passes within nanoseconds and knocking down passes meant to go 25 yards down field.

                            My immediate fixes:

                            1) Makes WRs more aggressive, and tool that based on ratings (jump, CIT, etc).
                            2) Route-based passing.
                            3) In practice mode, give us a mechanic to practice ball trajectory. Give us a meter that shows us what kind of trajectory we'll get if we hold the button down for so long.
                            4) Implement field of vision for defenders and tie it to awareness ratings.
                            5) Re-tool the animations for defenders and how quickly those animations can play.
                            6) Adjust the actual physics of the ball and passing. Get trajectory, velocity, and impact under control. Let's avoid seeing 3 defenders infinitely juggle a broken up pass.

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                            • dfos81
                              Banned
                              • Jun 2009
                              • 2210

                              #15
                              Re: There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

                              See I disagree w/ the idea of the passing game needing to be more wideopen or easier.

                              EA will never be able to please the masses b/c some guys want coverage to be more realistic with man and zone coverages and want the passing game to be as challenging as what a QB sees on Sundays.
                              Then we got some guys that think they want the more realistic, challenging passing game but as soon as EA starts focusing on it, guys start complaining b/c they throw 4 or 5 ints with Tom Brady.

                              EA will never completely please all, some want to be able to pick up a controller, and be automatically as good as Tom Brady at reading and manipulating defenses, and others want to actually lab and hone the user skills it takes to be an elite QB w/ MVP type numbers.

                              I personally really hope EA can give the Hardcore Madden guys that want the best level of a simulation of NFL football(simulation mode) and also please the guys that just want to pick up a controller and be automatically good and put up MVP numbers with the best players w/o having to put in all the labbing.
                              They are on the right track with what I see when I play All-Pro mode vs Pro. All-Pro is really better than ever in M12 imo.
                              I really hope they can prove me wrong and please all.

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