Starting HB at WR (AI glitch?)

[seanh1986]

Hey guys,

I run a sim-CCM and we recently had an 'issue' arise and I wanted to get some feedback on the topic.

One of our members set HB Reggie Bush to be his #1 WR on the depth chart. Legitimately, Bush is his highest overall WR and he's got a very reasonable second HB who could easily be a starter. He's not trying to do anything unethical.

In a recent game, one of our league members noted that when he was calling man-coverage, the game A.I. seemed to be assigning players (typically LBs) on the opposite side of the formation to cover the HB lined up at WR.

He said often (when the offensive player would audible), the man-coverage assignments would suddenly change such that players on opposite sides of the formation would be covering guys on the other side of the formation... So at the snap, multiple guys would run wide-open.

Apparently the issue only arose when the offensive player was in +3 WR sets (where one of those WRs was the HB).

In particular, on one play, apparently after an audible of some sort, the CB who was man assigned to the HB got re-assigned to the TE on the opposite side of the formation and proceeded to start running across the field pre-snap, leaving the HB uncovered.

I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced similar issues with lining up HB's as WR's every play, etc. I know in real life often a HB will line-up as a WR, but that's usually only a handful of times per game, not an "every-down" thing.

If it affects the defensive AI, then I will have to ban it in my league... Any insight is welcome. Thanks!

[seanh1986]

My best guess is that the new madden logic (where it tries to avoid lining up LBs on WRs, etc.)... Is trying to match-up position wise... So it's trying to "save" CB's to cover WRs and TEs and "save" HB's for LBs or safeties... So depending on the specific man-coverage play, it will just assign the closest Safety or LB to the HB, even if the HB is lined up at the WR#1 spot?

That's my best guess at least lol. Any thoughts welcome.

[PaulChildres]

If this is a true SIM league, it would seem as if you wanted it to mirror real life as much as possible. I've seen in real life where the HB will go in motion to act as a 3rd or 4th WR on a play and I've also seen the CPU do it in Madden, However, if hes putting the HB at his #1 WR spot then I would say that is crossing the line.

If not, then whats to say he couldn't use a WR as a CB or a OLB as a DE? On the Skins, if you put their OLBs as DEs their ratings go up to 99.

I beg to differ when you claim "He's not trying to do anything unethical"

Its not a big deal to have a receiving HB... but it is a big deal to have a WR running back.

[seanh1986]

Quote: Originally Posted by PaulChildres

If this is a true SIM league, it would seem as if you wanted it to mirror real life as much as possible. I've seen in real life where the HB will go in motion to act as a 3rd or 4th WR on a play and I've also seen the CPU do it in Madden, However, if hes putting the HB at his #1 WR spot then I would say that is crossing the line. If not, then whats to say he couldn't use a WR as a CB or a OLB as a DE? On the Skins, if you put their OLBs as DEs their ratings go up to 99. I beg to differ when you claim "He's not trying to do anything unethical" Its not a big deal to have a receiving HB... but it is a big deal to have a WR running back.

I feel like moving OLB and DEs around is not as big of a deal because there is a trade-off. And it's also scheme dependent... Madden doesn't let you change player positions, but if you change from a 3-4 to a 4-3 (or vice versa) then your old OLBs should now be your 4-3 DEs, etc. So it's a much more natural transition.

Putting the HB as his WR#1 is a bit unsettling to me... Because you'd never see any team put Reggie bush as a #1 WR; however, teams like the chiefs do use guys like dexter mcluster as a mix of a WR and a HB (but he's more of a slot WR).

As well, for some reason, this game changed Chris Cooley from a TE to a FB, even though he's played his whole career as a TE and is rated higher as a TE, so it's hard for me to tell someone they can't use Cooley (a "FB") as a TE.

But if all this player movement is messing up the A.I., then I will just ban it all.

In real life, often aging CB's will move to safety... Often 4-3 DE's are drafted to play 3-4 OLBs and often 3-4 OLB pass rushers are drafted to play 4-3 DEs.

So, it's actually un-sim to ban all players playing out of position.

I just want to make sure the A.I. Isn't getting messed up due to the switching. Like, whether I have an OLB or a DE lined up at right defensive end, its not like the Oline will decide to not block him.

However, if putting a HB at WR is messing up the defensive A.I. man coverage assignments then it's essentially "glitching".

[bigox1337]

Personally, i find playing anybody not at their natural position or the sister posistion (LG-RG, LT-RT, OLB-OLB, FS-SS) is borderline cheese. This madden has done a great job of restricting the really cheesy moves like CB at WR or WR at HB so it really hasnt been an issue in 13

The 32 owner sim league im in will let you play a HB at WR if and only if the play automatically does it or you formation audible pre play and they only allow that sparingly like twice max a drive and not on consecutive plays.

If you feel this is an issue, imagine what this owner is doing w.o you knowing or the stat sheet showing.

[seanh1986]

Quote: Originally Posted by bigox1337

Personally, i find playing anybody not at their natural position or the sister posistion (LG-RG, LT-RT, OLB-OLB, FS-SS) is borderline cheese. This madden has done a great job of restricting the really cheesy moves like CB at WR or WR at HB so it really hasnt been an issue in 13 The 32 owner sim league im in will let you play a HB at WR if and only if the play automatically does it or you formation audible pre play and they only allow that sparingly like twice max a drive and not on consecutive plays. If you feel this is an issue, imagine what this owner is doing w.o you knowing or the stat sheet showing.

Well, like I said, 3-4 OLB vs. 4-3 DE swapping I think is far from cheese, since it's done in real-life all the time.

But I'm basically trying to decide if I should implement that type of a rule for my 32-person sim-league.

Was the rationale that it was messing with the defensive A.I. system? Or just because they felt it was "un-sim" to have a "HB" playing "WR" too often?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Ordinarily, I wouldn't see it as a problem at all. There are some who thought Bush should be a full-time wideout, and if he's the best one they have then he can be the #1.

But if there's some combination of that and audibles that's breaking everything then it should be banned. Unless there's some way for him to actually change his position rather than just moving him on the depth chart.

[seanh1986]

Quote: Originally Posted by IlluminatusUIUC

Ordinarily, I wouldn't see it as a problem at all. There are some who thought Bush should be a full-time wideout, and if he's the best one they have then he can be the #1. But if there's some combination of that and audibles that's breaking everything then it should be banned. Unless there's some way for him to actually change his position rather than just moving him on the depth chart.

Madden (unfortunately) doesn't let us change positions.

It's still unclear if there is some sort of glitch associated with it, we've only had 1 report so far of it happening. I just wanted to know if anyone was aware of an issue / what causes it / easy fixes... Or if we should just ban it altogether.

I know some league ban it, but I wasn't sure if that was glitch-related or trying to ensure "sim"-standards.