The Disturbing Trend I've Noticed About MLB: The Show

[phantomblackgoat]

Let me start this off by stating I am not writing this thread to defame SDS or MLB: The Show in any way, I'm simply voicing my opinion based on a game series that was once the reason I bought a PS3 but seems to have ran into its fair share of issues recently. Over the past two years hitting in this game has felt completely random and awkward to me, I took to the internet (mostly Youtube, Operation Sports, and other forums similar to OS) to see if others shared the same sentiment I did. The overwhelming majority seemed to agree hitting was broken yet most seem to state this only affected online play.

As a player who only dives into the Franchise and RTTS modes, that last part never sat well with me. I've played the MLB: The Show series since 2012, during that time I've started more than a few franchises and RTTS players to know how most of the games work. I even dusted off my PS3 to play my old MLB: 13 RTTS player to make sure I wasn't just donning my rose-tinted nostalgia glasses upon writing this. Prior to doing so I wasn't quite sure how to explain this trend I've been noticing but I do now, and it's the utter removal of a skill gap. Pitching feels idiot-proof while hitting feels more challenging, not because of some new gameplay mechanic that requires skill to master, rather because it's affected by such a high degree of randomness. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to say randomness didn't affect the older games or that they are perfect because they aren't. What I mean is you knew roughly what was going to happen if you hit a ball a certain way or if you missed a spot with your pitch. Yes, there was still a dice roll going on behind the scenes but if you squared up a hanging curveball with good timing 99% of the time you were going to hit it hard and far, and even if that swing didn't result in a hit you at least made a loud out. However after The Show 17 dropped (when SDS introduced the new ball physics), things seemed to change. Last year that change was making "just late" swings downright overpowered, so much so that both players and CPU were deliberately attempting to swing late because it resulted in better outcomes than "good" timing swings.

To SDS's credit, they did a good job of correcting the "just late swing" exploit when The Show 18 dropped. Unfortunately their fix only partially rectified that problem. I'm 4 seasons deep in my current franchise with the White Sox (started in MLB 17 then ported to 18) and in that time I've rebuilt them into a juggernaut that won the WS in 2019. I like to play my franchises hyper realistic so I run the OSFM rosters and sliders with all gameplay options set to Hall of Fame difficulty. Despite being heavily invested in this franchise most of the time I find myself unsatisfied with the feedback I get from certain scenarios. At times pitching feels effortless as if it were scripted, that's never a good thing when playing a game that's supposed to be super competitive. This problem also makes hitting feel needlessly frustrating, I'd bet good money that upwards of 70% of "good" timing swings result in weak contact, even on pitches spotted so poorly they might as well be served up on a tee. It makes losses feel unwarranted at times when the opposing pitchers are pitching like garbage and still getting bailed out because of an RNG system. It also makes certain wins feel unsatisfying when you know the CPU genuinely outplayed you yet the game still decided to hand you the win thanks to a bunch of lucky hits you didn't deserve. I'm not saying every game ends in this manner, when everything is working properly this is easily the most polished MLB game I've ever played. The problem is those instances are few and far between, at least when compared to the older games in the series. Before anyone comes at me saying "this is baseball and anything can happen," you are completely right. I'm fine with a certain degree of chaos affecting gameplay, the problem exists when the majority of outcomes are determined by a dice roll. I don't think anyone enjoys that feeling you get when a game seems like it's taking the controller out of your hands and deciding things for you, that's the type of feeling I am referring to.

Maybe I'm just insane and looking too deeply into this (or just need to heavily adjust the sliders), I'd really like to know if anyone else out there shares my opinion on the new Pitching and Hitting mechanics. I know I'll inevitably draw the ire of the "u suck git gud" crowd, but I really do encourage reasonable discussion upon this topic even if you don't agree with me.

Disclaimer: I should also mention I play with the PCI indicator and guess pitch turned off, I find them to be too arcadey and they seem to result in some very unrealistic stat lines in my past experiences using them.

[KnightTemplar]

You lost me on the “dice roll” and the controller being “taken out of my hands”. I just posted my latest scores in the thread about how the CPU isn’t competitive. My scores show anything but that, and after a 5 game losing streak I always had a positive feeling about the outcome, even that they were losses.

I’d almost like to be a fly on the wall to see what’s going on with some of the gamers. Not you per se, but I simply don’t get a lot of posts and complaints (exclude online as I’d never go there), but, at one game over .500 in my franchise (current to date), l’m seeing nothing that leads me to believe the game is scripted, or that my input is meaningless. I finish my daily game seeing hit variety I’ve never seen and outcomes that are pretty spot on. Just a joy to play, losses and all.

[NolanRyansSnowmonkey]

Unfortunately i dont have a lot of time to go deep into this, but i will say that, for me, no iteration of the Show has been so realistic as far as hitting goes. Keep in mind i play Franchise only, Legend, zone hitting, pci and strike zone off. I have never seen hits that look so real, and statistics that are as dead-on as this year (and i am very very detailed in the stats that i track).

I started out playing on HOF but it was obvious i nedded to move up pretty quickly.

Sometimes we get locked into whatever settings we are playing, and just assume the game is to fault. Have you tried other settings/difficulty levels/ sliders/camera angles, and then given them a fair shake for a good sample size?

My games do not feel scripted. Where i swing, my pci location on feedback in relation to the ball, and my timing always makes complete sense according to how i felt during the swing, and who is swinging.

When I pitch, i have been getting slaughtered lately. But i should be, given my pitching staff. Its always possible to find settings to make it harder. Unless you have CPU hitting on all 10's, and Human pitching on 0, there is room to make it more difficult.

Im sure there is a lot more to say regarding this, but i really dont see the things you are describing. So i apologize for probably not being a lot of help.

I would suggest changing some things up and trying some other settings maybe?

[phantomblackgoat]

Quote: Originally Posted by KnightTemplar

You lost me on the “dice roll” and the controller being “taken out of my hands”. I just posted my latest scores in the thread about how the CPU isn’t competitive. My scores show anything but that, and after a 5 game losing streak I always had a positive feeling about the outcome, even that they were losses. I’d almost like to be a fly on the wall to see what’s going on with some of the gamers. Not you per se, but I simply don’t get a lot of posts and complaints (exclude online as I’d never go there), but, at one game over .500 in my franchise (current to date), l’m seeing nothing that leads me to believe the game is scripted, or that my input is meaningless. I finish my daily game seeing hit variety I’ve never seen and outcomes that are pretty spot on. Just a joy to play, losses and all.

Regardless of what you believe it would be naive to suggest there aren't RNG mechanics working behind the scenes deciding the outcome of every scenario. RNG is present to some degree in almost every game out there nowadays, regardless of the genre. Am I saying it is the only thing that determines who wins those scenarios? No, that's why the ratings system and swing feedback system exist. However, it certainly feels it plays a bigger role this year than it did in year's past (i.e. before The Show 17). Very rarely did you pop up a well-timed swing on a pitch down the heart of the plate in those games, or miss it entirely. When you did it was likely due to the batter being on a cold streak or having a low contact/vision rating, so it would make sense why they missed it.

I'm also not insinuating the hitting is only broken for the user. At times the CPU does feel woefully inept at hitting, even on pitches left right in the middle of the zone. My point is user input seems to matter so much less in the recent games than it did in older installments.

[KnightTemplar]

Quote: Originally Posted by phantomblackgoat

Regardless of what you believe it would be naive to suggest there aren't RNG mechanics working behind the scenes deciding the outcome of every scenario. RNG is present to some degree in almost every game out there nowadays, regardless of the genre. Am I saying it is the only thing that determines who wins those scenarios? No, that's why the ratings system and swing feedback system exist. However, it certainly feels it plays a bigger role this year than it did in year's past (i.e. before The Show 17). Very rarely did you pop up a well-timed swing on a pitch down the heart of the plate in those games, or miss it entirely. When you did it was likely due to the batter being on a cold streak or having a low contact/vision rating, so it would make sense why they missed it. I'm also not insinuating the hitting is only broken for the user. At times the CPU does feel woefully inept at hitting, even on pitches left right in the middle of the zone. My point is user input seems to matter so much less in the recent games than it did in older installments.

Call me simple minded, but I’d hang up the game if I thought there was something “under the hood deciding the outcome of every scenario”. I completely disagree about the gamer impact mattering so much less this year. Your ideas on hitting have been discussed ad nauseam on the boards and I’m going to bow out. You’ll have those who agree, those who disagree. All I know is the enjoyment it brings to me. I don’t over analyze things I really know nothing about under the hood. I just look at my own outcome. Best danged sports game ever.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by phantomblackgoat

Before anyone comes at me saying "this is baseball and anything can happen," you are completely right. I'm fine with a certain degree of chaos affecting gameplay, the problem exists when the majority of outcomes are determined by a dice roll. I don't think anyone enjoys that feeling you get when a game seems like it's taking the controller out of your hands and deciding things for you, that's the type of feeling I am referring to.

But that's the game.

Real players often feel like they do "everything right" and the outcome goes against them.

Now, IRL, physics, not RNG, determines the result of plays. What appears random is so because it's hard to control to the degree necessary to ensure success and we are still lacking the consistent quantification needed to see more of the physics (we're getting there with Statcast and pitch f/x).

For example, if a hitter puts what he thought was a great, well-timed swing on the ball and popped it up. He'll be frustrated. He can't believe it happened. The pitcher will think he "got lucky".

There's no luck. The bat was a fraction too far under the ball and the bat a microfraction too early/late. But these things are hard for players to control and "feel". That's why they appear random and there appears to be "luck" in baseball. It's all physics.

However, until The Show goes to a pure physics model, RNG will be used as the proxy. This applies to every aspect of the game. I don't agree that 17 is any different. It's just the way this game represents hitting. PCI is not a bat. It's not a physics-driven game, that's always been the case. Randomness has always been a significant factor. User input tweaks the odds more for or against you/the CPU. The various interfaces determine when and where that input is applicable and what part of the process you have the most impact over.

It's always been the case, imo.

[phantomblackgoat]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

But that's the game. Real players often feel like they do "everything right" and the outcome goes against them. Now, IRL, physics, not RNG, determines the result of plays. What appears random is so because it's hard to control to the degree necessary to ensure success and we are still lacking the consistent quantification needed to see more of the physics (we're getting there with Statcast and pitch f/x). For example, if a hitter puts what he thought was a great, well-timed swing on the ball and popped it up. He'll be frustrated. He can't believe it happened. The pitcher will think he "got lucky". There's no luck. The bat was a fraction too far under the ball and the bat a microfraction too early/late. But these things are hard for players to control and "feel". That's why they appear random and there appears to be "luck" in baseball. It's all physics. However, until The Show goes to a pure physics model, RNG will be used as the proxy. This applies to every aspect of the game. I don't agree that 17 is any different. It's just the way this game represents hitting. PCI is not a bat. It's not a physics-driven game, that's always been the case. Randomness has always been a significant factor. User input tweaks the odds more for or against you/the CPU. The various interfaces determine when and where that input is applicable and what part of the process you have the most impact over. It's always been the case, imo.

As I've already said, I have no issue with RNG being present in video games. I don't think video games will ever be able to mirror real life 100% accurately, so it's likely it will always exist to some extent. My problem with MLB 18 is it seems RNG has replaced player skill as the primary deciding factor behind the outcome of at-bats. A good player will still win nine ties out of ten against a novice or average player in 18 but the skill gap has objectively been narrowed compared to MLB 16 and earlier.

[countryboy]

Quote: Originally Posted by phantomblackgoat

As I've already said, I have no issue with RNG being present in video games. I don't think video games will ever be able to mirror real life 100% accurately, so it's likely it will always exist to some extent. My problem with MLB 18 is it seems RNG has replaced player skill as the primary deciding factor behind the outcome of at-bats. A good player will still win nine ties out of ten against a novice or average player in 18 but the skill gap has objectively been narrowed compared to MLB 16 and earlier.

But if RNG wasn't the primary variable in the equation then ratings of players would cease to matter as you would be able to take a very low rated player and put up stats like a Hall of Famer. Ratings/RNG have to matter in simulation sports games, or else they would be nothing more than the likes of MLB Slugfest, NBA Jam, etc...

User input does matter. I don't know how to exactly explain this, but user input helps dictate how much of a player's rating is used.

Example: If a hitter has a contact rating of 90 against right handed pitchers and the user places the PCI perfectly, times the pitch perfectly, squaring up the ball then that full rating of 90 will be factored into the equation on that given play. Then you have to factor in the pitcher's ratings and how well he executed the pitch to get the pitcher's ratings factored into the equation to determine what will happen on a given play/pitch.

If either is off then the influence of their respective ratings that are used in the equation are lowered.

I really don't know how else to better explain what I'm trying to say.

But if you're wanting the user and his skill to determine the full outcome of the play then the Show isn't the game you want to be playing, because ratings will come into play and be factored into the equation/RNG to determine the outcome.