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Old 03-26-2019, 02:00 AM   #17
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Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

First off I’m loving this roster, thank you CD90.

I was wondering if anyone has good jump shot edits for Jason Williams, Peja Stojakovic, and Chris Webber? Williams is ok but he just floats a little too long for me
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Old 03-26-2019, 09:56 PM   #18
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Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

Great roster thank you!
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:10 AM   #19
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Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CD90
Hm, no comment yet. I hope that is because you are still playing
Just some things...

Stromile Swift
Driving Dunk only 76
Contact dunk only 66

Tracy McGrady
Overall only 86... I'm not even going to dive into that.

Latrell Sprewell 99
Glen Rice 99
Larry Johnson 93
Cambyv 98
Mark Jackson 99
Charlie Ward 97
Kurt Thomas 92
O. Harrington 88
Spoiler



Iverson 87
Offense consistency

Kobe Bryant 86
Shaq 88
Overall

Maybe I'm missing something here. I usually play vs human. Some of these ratings are either high or too low to understand.

I'll play a season by myself and get back to you.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:12 AM   #20
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Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeebs9
Just some things...

Stromile Swift
Driving Dunk only 76
Contact dunk only 66

Tracy McGrady
Overall only 86... I'm not even going to dive into that.

Latrell Sprewell 99
Glen Rice 99
Larry Johnson 93
Cambyv 98
Mark Jackson 99
Charlie Ward 97
Kurt Thomas 92
O. Harrington 88
Spoiler



Iverson 87
Offense consistency

Kobe Bryant 86
Shaq 88
Overall

Maybe I'm missing something here. I usually play vs human. Some of these ratings are either high or too low to understand.

I'll play a season by myself and get back to you.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
I might be able to explain a couple of these since these are based off my ratings.

First of all, the driving layup. These are all mostly based off their actual driving layup percentages (with a little extra weight being added to players with more volume), we do have access to those stats for the 00-01 season. The reason why the scale for it is so high is due to a long standing bug with sim stats regarding low percentages in the paint. If you sim a season and look at some of the team and player shot charts, you'll see what I mean; inside percentages for teams *and individual players* are roughly between 50-60%, which for some guys is far too low. Back in 2K16, I ran a lot of isolated tests to figure out how certain shot ratings relate with their percentages and what those scales should be to come up with values more like we'd expect. In conclusions from those results, even accounting for dunks, this meant both the standing layup and driving layup had to be really high. Unfortunately, because inside percentages correlate so much to scoring, fg%, pace, and even wins, those ratings have to remain where they are to see many stats as you'd expect them to be. Since the 2K guys have never fixed their inside percentage flaws, these values still make sense for 2K19.

But what does this mean for gameplay? It's not as bad as you think. Just because a player has a 99 layup rating, it doesn't mean those will automatically go in, other factors like contested layup rates and inside shot sliders also go into those calculations. I've been testing CPU gameplay with these for years and never noticed anything awkward about layups once I got the sliders tweaked (which is necessary to see an appropriate amount of layup attempts that are foul calls).

Just for reference, here are their drive layup percentages for that season:

Latrell Sprewell 99 - 108/121 (89.26%)
Glen Rice 99 - 27/30 (90.0%)
Larry Johnson 93 - 16/19 (84.21%)
Camby 98 - 35/41 (85.37%)
Mark Jackson 99 - 51/60 (85%)
Charlie Ward 97 - 41/50 (82%)
Kurt Thomas 92 - 13/15 (86.67%)
O. Harrington 88 - 8/8 (100%)


As far as overalls go, don't focus on the actual number by itself. More so look at the difference between players' overalls, or at least just for players who play the same position. 2K's overall are gonna appear higher, but the ones in this roster are going to be more accurate as it doesn't have fluff due to over-rating of certain attributes. If you're more comfortable seeing higher overalls, all you'd need to do is increase everybody's Intangibles rating. I don't know what Intangibles CD90 set for this roster, but at a 75 you'd expect MVP candidates to be in the high 80's for their overall.

It's a different system than 2K's so you have to look at it from a different perspective. My advice is to give it a try without thinking about the numbers, and just notice the difference with how it plays.

Oh also, one more thing, set the Speed/Acceleration min/max sliders to
Speed W/ Ball 100/60
Accel w Ball 100/0
Speed wout ball 100/30
Accel wout Ball 100/0

Or else players will move far too sluggish and slow.
__________________
NBA 2K18 ratings for several seasons generated from advanced analytics using the SportsCrunch system:

Sonicmage NBA 2K18 Ratings 2017-18 season
Link to Ratings 1996-2017
Link to Ratings 1973-1996
Link to Ratings All-time

Discussion found here
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:15 AM   #21
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Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicMage
I might be able to explain a couple of these since these are based off my ratings.



First of all, the driving layup. These are all mostly based off their actual driving layup percentages (with a little extra weight being added to players with more volume), we do have access to those stats for the 00-01 season. The reason why the scale for it is so high is due to a long standing bug with sim stats regarding low percentages in the paint. If you sim a season and look at some of the team and player shot charts, you'll see what I mean; inside percentages for teams *and individual players* are roughly between 50-60%, which for some guys is far too low. Back in 2K16, I ran a lot of isolated tests to figure out how certain shot ratings relate with their percentages and what those scales should be to come up with values more like we'd expect. In conclusions from those results, even accounting for dunks, this meant both the standing layup and driving layup had to be really high. Unfortunately, because inside percentages correlate so much to scoring, fg%, pace, and even wins, those ratings have to remain where they are to see many stats as you'd expect them to be. Since the 2K guys have never fixed their inside percentage flaws, these values still make sense for 2K19.



But what does this mean for gameplay? It's not as bad as you think. Just because a player has a 99 layup rating, it doesn't mean those will automatically go in, other factors like contested layup rates and inside shot sliders also go into those calculations. I've been testing CPU gameplay with these for years and never noticed anything awkward about layups once I got the sliders tweaked (which is necessary to see an appropriate amount of layup attempts that are foul calls).



Just for reference, here are their drive layup percentages for that season:



Latrell Sprewell 99 - 108/121 (89.26%)

Glen Rice 99 - 27/30 (90.0%)

Larry Johnson 93 - 16/19 (84.21%)

Camby 98 - 35/41 (85.37%)

Mark Jackson 99 - 51/60 (85%)

Charlie Ward 97 - 41/50 (82%)

Kurt Thomas 92 - 13/15 (86.67%)

O. Harrington 88 - 8/8 (100%)





As far as overalls go, don't focus on the actual number by itself. More so look at the difference between players' overalls, or at least just for players who play the same position. 2K's overall are gonna appear higher, but the ones in this roster are going to be more accurate as it doesn't have fluff due to over-rating of certain attributes. If you're more comfortable seeing higher overalls, all you'd need to do is increase everybody's Intangibles rating. I don't know what Intangibles CD90 set for this roster, but at a 75 you'd expect MVP candidates to be in the high 80's for their overall.



It's a different system than 2K's so you have to look at it from a different perspective. My advice is to give it a try without thinking about the numbers, and just notice the difference with how it plays.



Oh also, one more thing, set the Speed/Acceleration min/max sliders to

Speed W/ Ball 100/60

Accel w Ball 100/0

Speed wout ball 100/30

Accel wout Ball 100/0



Or else players will move far too sluggish and slow.
I had a feeling that's what going on here.

Here is the problem. I never play the cpu. I only play humans. Knowing my cousins and friends really well. This will stand out way too much. They also will drive all night long with the Knicks lol

Thanks for explaining though.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
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Last edited by jeebs9; 03-27-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:18 AM   #22
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Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeebs9
Just some things...

Thank you for the feedback.


I agree. Compared to a regular 2k roster some things look a bit weird.


As Sonicmage said some of it has to do with sim stats. You can always adjust the gameplay with sliders. Not possible for sim stats. But most of the changes he/i made to get better sim stats don't impact the gameplay that much. If you would have played without looking at attributes first you probably wouldn't notice that the layup attributes are that high.


On the other hand there are some attributes that are acutally lower than 2ks and still get you correct sim stats. Like steals, blocks or rebounds. This leads to quit a drop for the players overall rating. Through the whole league players have lower overall numbers than in 2ks roster. I think the highest rated guy had an 89 (KG?)? Than there are a few with 88.
So an 88 for Shaq might look low when yo uare used to 2ks scale. In this roster he is probalby top5 rated (depending on how 2k ranks those 88ers).
This makes T-Mac better than you think, too.

There is also a downside to it. The gap in the overall rating between a star player and a rotation guy is also reduced.

In generall you can say that starting with an overall of 80 you get the good players. There are some exception though.



If you have particular players that are to high/low in your opinion you can change the players intangible attribute. Like Sonicmage said it will have a great inpact on the overall rating. I did it, too. Most guys have it at 80. But for a hand few of players i changed it a little to get a worse overall.


Stromile Swift: I was pretty hard when it comes down to dunk attributes. I didn't want the roster to be the next NBA Jam. Compared to other big man his numbers should be among the hightest. Compared to some guards this probably should be a little higher, agree.



Iverson: You think it is too high, right? This number is lower than other great scorers have. But only a few points. Maybe you want to change it to an 85 or even 80. I might have kept him at 87 and not 85 so his overall doesn't drop so nobody argues why the MVP has such a low overall. I don't remember. Anyway, i don't think it is a big deal. He was kind of consistent on offense. But not efficient. The efficiency part comes along with his other attributes. So with this number he is not on top, sim stats are okay and, probably most important, he should also challange you in most game you play against him.





I'm sure you'll find way more "little" things that seem a bit off if you look for them. My roster is far from perfect. I'm happy that Sonicmage gave us such a great base to work with. So atleast some attributes are based off real stats. But let's be honest, most of them are not. So i had to come up with a way to rate players. I tried to do it the same way for all players. But i'm also aware that i made mistakes here. There are players i have never seen play, so that might be a reason for some mistakes. Maybe i'm not objective enough for some players and i rated him to good/bad.




Overall i think i made a good enough job when it comes to the overall experience (gameplay and sim stats).
I would recommend to play a few games, hopefully enjoy them, and only go back to the attributes when you see something weird during gameplay.





Otherwise it might ruin the experience. At least that was my problem with classic roster in last years. I was super excited to play with roster xy. I downloaded it and went through the roster for a few minutes. Looked at some overalls, some attributes here and there and i disagreed with a few things. Maybe that's only a thing when you edit rosters yourself. But i wasn't hyped to play afterwards.


But if you want you can go through the complete roster, look for those mistakes and post them so we can talk about them.
I'm happy for every feedback that pops up.




edit: Okay, i was typing way to long.
Do you play on- or offline against your friends?

Quick games? I never play online, are there sliders for online quick games?

If you only play quick games and don't plan to play a season (on or offline) you can mass edit the layup attributes.

If you play a season with your friends or alone i wouldn't touch them and use sliders to adjust some things.
You could also try to teach them to play different or play like them aswell. But i guess this isn't fun.

Last edited by CD90; 03-27-2019 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 03-27-2019, 04:10 PM   #23
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Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeebs9
Here is the problem. I never play the cpu. I only play humans. Knowing my cousins and friends really well. This will stand out way too much. They also will drive all night long with the Knicks lol
That type of repetitive exploitative behavior is meant to be curbed by the stamina system. One of the problems with 2K is that they tend to overvalue their stamina ratings to the point that a lot of players are rated in the 80's and 90's. This leads to players not getting tired for a very long time, so their abilities don't drop off from overuse. I'm willing to bet they've tried tightening stamina in the past but the general response they received was "But getting tired is boring or unfair". Remember there's a balance between realism and fun, those two concepts often do not go hand in hand. Anyways, what I'm saying is that with a lower, more fair stamina rating, trying to drive to the hoop too much will result in a drop off of other abilities like being able to hit shots, to the point that excessive drives to the hoop will no longer be worth it.

I'm actually currently experimenting with coming up with a fair scale for the stamina rating to attempt to limit that kind of behavior.

The other factor which will help is the speed ratings. These speeds are way lower for big men than what 2K uses, so they won't find themselves being able to easily drive to the hoop around quicker defenders to take advantage of the high layup numbers.
__________________
NBA 2K18 ratings for several seasons generated from advanced analytics using the SportsCrunch system:

Sonicmage NBA 2K18 Ratings 2017-18 season
Link to Ratings 1996-2017
Link to Ratings 1973-1996
Link to Ratings All-time

Discussion found here

Last edited by SonicMage; 03-27-2019 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 03-27-2019, 06:51 PM   #24
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Posts: 47,570
Re: NBA 2k19 - 2000-01 Season (PS4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CD90
Thank you for the feedback.


I agree. Compared to a regular 2k roster some things look a bit weird.


As Sonicmage said some of it has to do with sim stats. You can always adjust the gameplay with sliders. Not possible for sim stats. But most of the changes he/i made to get better sim stats don't impact the gameplay that much. If you would have played without looking at attributes first you probably wouldn't notice that the layup attributes are that high.


On the other hand there are some attributes that are acutally lower than 2ks and still get you correct sim stats. Like steals, blocks or rebounds. This leads to quit a drop for the players overall rating. Through the whole league players have lower overall numbers than in 2ks roster. I think the highest rated guy had an 89 (KG?)? Than there are a few with 88.
So an 88 for Shaq might look low when yo uare used to 2ks scale. In this roster he is probalby top5 rated (depending on how 2k ranks those 88ers).
This makes T-Mac better than you think, too.

There is also a downside to it. The gap in the overall rating between a star player and a rotation guy is also reduced.

In generall you can say that starting with an overall of 80 you get the good players. There are some exception though.



If you have particular players that are to high/low in your opinion you can change the players intangible attribute. Like Sonicmage said it will have a great inpact on the overall rating. I did it, too. Most guys have it at 80. But for a hand few of players i changed it a little to get a worse overall.


Stromile Swift: I was pretty hard when it comes down to dunk attributes. I didn't want the roster to be the next NBA Jam. Compared to other big man his numbers should be among the hightest. Compared to some guards this probably should be a little higher, agree.



Iverson: You think it is too high, right? This number is lower than other great scorers have. But only a few points. Maybe you want to change it to an 85 or even 80. I might have kept him at 87 and not 85 so his overall doesn't drop so nobody argues why the MVP has such a low overall. I don't remember. Anyway, i don't think it is a big deal. He was kind of consistent on offense. But not efficient. The efficiency part comes along with his other attributes. So with this number he is not on top, sim stats are okay and, probably most important, he should also challange you in most game you play against him.





I'm sure you'll find way more "little" things that seem a bit off if you look for them. My roster is far from perfect. I'm happy that Sonicmage gave us such a great base to work with. So atleast some attributes are based off real stats. But let's be honest, most of them are not. So i had to come up with a way to rate players. I tried to do it the same way for all players. But i'm also aware that i made mistakes here. There are players i have never seen play, so that might be a reason for some mistakes. Maybe i'm not objective enough for some players and i rated him to good/bad.




Overall i think i made a good enough job when it comes to the overall experience (gameplay and sim stats).
I would recommend to play a few games, hopefully enjoy them, and only go back to the attributes when you see something weird during gameplay.





Otherwise it might ruin the experience. At least that was my problem with classic roster in last years. I was super excited to play with roster xy. I downloaded it and went through the roster for a few minutes. Looked at some overalls, some attributes here and there and i disagreed with a few things. Maybe that's only a thing when you edit rosters yourself. But i wasn't hyped to play afterwards.


But if you want you can go through the complete roster, look for those mistakes and post them so we can talk about them.
I'm happy for every feedback that pops up.




edit: Okay, i was typing way to long.
Do you play on- or offline against your friends?

Quick games? I never play online, are there sliders for online quick games?

If you only play quick games and don't plan to play a season (on or offline) you can mass edit the layup attributes.

If you play a season with your friends or alone i wouldn't touch them and use sliders to adjust some things.
You could also try to teach them to play different or play like them aswell. But i guess this isn't fun.
We usually play season for one year. Once in a while I play online with a cousin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicMage
That type of repetitive exploitative behavior is meant to be curbed by the stamina system. One of the problems with 2K is that they tend to overvalue their stamina ratings to the point that a lot of players are rated in the 80's and 90's. This leads to players not getting tired for a very long time, so their abilities don't drop off from overuse. I'm willing to bet they've tried tightening stamina in the past but the general response they received was "But getting tired is boring or unfair". Remember there's a balance between realism and fun, those two concepts often do not go hand in hand. Anyways, what I'm saying is that with a lower, more fair stamina rating, trying to drive to the hoop too much will result in a drop off of other abilities like being able to hit shots, to the point that excessive drives to the hoop will no longer be worth it.

I'm actually currently experimenting with coming up with a fair scale for the stamina rating to attempt to limit that kind of behavior.

The other factor which will help is the speed ratings. These speeds are way lower for big men than what 2K uses, so they won't find themselves being able to easily drive to the hoop around quicker defenders to take advantage of the high layup numbers.
I also want you guys to know I wasn't knocking these rosters either. I know how much work and time goes into these.

I've used your rosters before (actually a few times back in the day). Some friends loved it. Others hated it. But you can't make everyone happy lol.

But thank you for all the work you guys put into this rosters.

I'll post some highlights this week.
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