What's the proper Blocks-to-Fouls ratio?

[Kushmir]

I come to OS for the level-headed discussions on gaming and even for the instances i'm corrected. I've really been considering the blocking system lately.

Most of us agree blocks in 2K16 are really bad. To me the problem has 4 Tiers: 1) there aren't enough fouls called 2) blocks are simply too easy 3) they disregard rating almost entirely and 4) worst of all, timing doesn't matter...even if you miss the block, the attempt itself often forces contact and airborne players that mis-timed their leaps COMPLETELY come crashing down on offensive players (the easiest whistle in the NBA) aren't called for fouls.

Risk/Reward is important. At a basic level gameplay has to offer good and bad results for a decision. If guards and swingmen didn't have the tools to counter offensive players it'd be one thing, but the contest/hands-up mechanics are available to defenders who lack shot-blocking skills.

My question is this: Disregarding chase-down blocks (which are in another galaxy entirely) What's a proper blocks-to-fouls ratio? Meaning that given 20 Instances where a player goes for blocks, what are the chances they'll 1) be successful 2) miss altogether or 3) be called for a foul? I've broken them down poor, average, good and elite shot-blockers...i've also categorized them as on-ball (meaning blocking the man you're defending) help and bad position (when the offensive player is in-between the defender and the basket or "beaten")

Jose Calderon
OB - 2 blocks, 4 whiffs, 14 fouls
H - 2 blocks, 6 whiffs, 12 fouls
BP - 1 block, 5 whiffs, 15 fouls

Chandler Parsons
OB - 4 blocks, 4 whiffs, 12 fouls
H - 5 blocks, 5 whiffs, 10 fouls
BP - 3 blocks, 4 whiffs, 13 fouls

Nerlens Noel
OB - 9 blocks, 5 whiffs, 6 fouls
H - 10 blocks, 4 whiffs, 6 fouls
BP - 5 blocks, 5 whiffs, 10 fouls

Anthony Davis
OB - 11 blocks, 3 whiffs, 6 fouls
H - 12 blocks, 2 whiffs, 6 fouls
BP - 9 blocks, 3 whiffs, 8 fouls

I've always liked Instances because instead of saying "this guy can't get blocks" it's more "these are the chances he'll get a block." So...am I way off here? Is a system where Calderon is twice as likely to miss altogether in on-ball situations (and 7 times as likely to be called for a foul) a bad one or something we need?

[Smirkin Dirk]

Kushmir, great work on the sim nation show.

Firstly, I disagree with the basic premise. I dont think shot blocking is bad; I think its pretty good. I play exclusively offline so Ive got my sliders humming to get that risk/reward thing on point. If anything, I think fouls need to be toned down. Those auto-fouls where your guy bludgeons a guy going up needs to be gotten rid of.

And it's hard to exactly what the best ratio is. Calderon wouldnt have attempted 20 blocks all season Id imagine (unless you include contests on the perimeter).

Are you saying there is not enough of a gap between good shotblockers and bad shotblockers? Id agree with that. Slow footed unathletic guys seem to get close-out/jumping boosts because the animation lets them get to shots they cant get to. Attributes dont seem to impact these animations.

[Kushmir]

Thanks.

I apologize--I should have said online. Offline/Online two different animals, the offline AI will "play real basketball" while a human opponent has no such compunctions, they will use any gameplay loopholes or high percentage plays (pump fakes in the post vs a single AI defender draw too many fouls for instance) and spam anything that doesnt hurt them. This is why I understand why blocks online are set to "easy" but I also think there's a better alternative.

Yes, what I should have said is that blocks need more Risk/Reward and before anything else: Poor, Average, Good and Elite shot-blockers HAVE to be properly separated....because why rate players otherwise?

These ratings have to accurate and players have to adhere to them (and we must see the benefits/penalties of said ratings) for the same reasons Steph Curry's 3pt rating is higher than Andre Drummonds or Zach Lavine and Kyle Korver's dunk rating differ.....AUTHENTICITY.

[ILLSmak]

You can't really put a ratio on it because you don't know where the defense is coming from. Online it should be very low simply because people almost never are in good defensive position for a block.

That stuff just doesn't happen where people fly from one side of the rim to the other and block someone's dunk on the ****-back. Those shouldn't even be fouls, or they should be so late that it's always an and1.

The rate of blocks to fouls might not be bad (in the air, the on the ground pump-fake, shoot into people fouls are a bit too much), but the ground players cover and the fact that they seem to always be in 'block mode' is what the problem is.

Blocks are tough because they need to really do research and figure out how to make blocks more than just something that is determined by attribute. I would say they need to make players with high block ratings have more powerful block animations but make them be, more or less, implemented the same( and arguably none of this jump and be magnetized to the ball garbage.) So that if you are against a 7'3 95 block rating dude, it doesn't mean you CAN'T SCORE INSIDE EVER.

-Smak

[Kushmir]

I'd argue that in gaming there needs to be a ratio so that gameplay acknowledges the skill-sets of the players involved. Its the same reason we use ratings to determine how good steph curry is at shooting 3pters, CP3 is at making free throws and Drummond is at grabbing rebounds.....authenticity.

In that same sense, giving everyone the ability to block shots effectively is NO BUENO. would we do the same in any of those other instances? NO WAY. Because Dwight Howard shooting 80% from the FT line is not authentic. IMO 2K's decision to emulate real FG% was the one thing that took their game to the next level and other parts of gameplay should follow suit.

Ratios don't deal in absolutes and dictate that something can never happen, they simply lower or raise the chances based on skill-set, so that someone like Jrue Holiday for instance, isn't blocking more shots than say...Anthony Davis. And that if he attempts blocks in the same situations as Davis, there will be very different results....just like there would be if the Holiday & Davis were taking shots from behind the arc.

[Vni]

There are way too many blocked dunks for sure. I easily see at least 3 a game in a 6min quarters online, that's off. I think it's a combination of the defense being way too assisted in general and bad and slow dunks animation. I really would hate for them to go the complete other way like they did with 2K13 where dunks were unblockable but they definately have to adjust. Reward excellent timing and great positioning coupled with good block ratings. Sometimes you go for a dunk and one guy is in the paint not even looking in the direction of the play and way behind it but he's gonna block a dunk with his elbow by just throwing his arm around or reaching.

I think defense as a whole is just way too assisted, that's my issue with this game.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by Vni

Reward excellent timing and great positioning coupled with good block ratings.

This....ALL DAY.