A solution to the Hardcore vs Casual gamer debate..

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by Crimsontide27

Just my opinion on the Auto Industry, but I dont think you want to use that as your example. For example, there are 50 car companies out there fighting for your dollar. Competition in the auto industry is fierce, so they will do whatever it takes to get you to pick them. Its called a differentiation strategy. Proof of this is when Mr. Ford came out with the Model T. He said flat out something along the lines as, " You can have it in any color you want, as long as its black". At this point in time, his was the only car on the market, so if he didnt want to make a diff color car, he didnt have to, because people were going to buy his car regardless of its color. Back then if you wanted a car, you accepted what Mr Ford offered because he was the only one offering them. Same thing with football. If you want a new football game this year, you will take what EA gives you...period Exact same principle applies here. NCAA / Madden are the ONLY football games that are getting released at this point. NCAA for example is the Model T of the football game industry. In your example, if one company didnt offer what I wanted in a car, I could simply go to a diff auto manufacturer and get what I want. Todays football games are different.

The problem is it's not the same. A car is a concept. What we speak of here is a league which isn't a concept in and of itself but a very specific licensed and branded product entitled to use by and for the sale of, as to how they chose, a group of individuals. The NFL for example does not have any decision making in the use of all football games, which would be akin to how your arguement paints them but only the football games using their specific branding that represents their league. Using your analogy of the Model T, it would be akin to someone else just one day begin to start making automobiles exactly like the Model T and calling them Model T's. They would be sued and put out of business pronto. Now someone else could, and did, make a new car to compete with the Model T, but they made their own car and didn't call it the Model T. Again going back to the common analogy given above, this would be akin to all of us being outraged that we can't have our choice of car manufacturers making various Model T's because we're unhappy with what Ford is doing with that particular model. The whole idea when phrased that way seems pretty ludicrous (or at least it should).

Any company in the world right now could make a football game for any system, just not using the particular license of the NFL because the NFL chose to pick one company to make their a football game branded with their own particular product. Again, let me repeat that....the NFL CHOSE to eliminate competition.

What this boils down to is that that people aren't demanding competition in the videogame football industry, it's that people are demanding competition in the NFL/NCAA videogame football industry which itself has declined to give it's consumers competition. Note that key words ...NFL DECLINED...COMPETITION... That is the difference between a monopoly and simply a calculated, legal yet unpopular business decision.. As for the person who said it's a moot point in this thread, it's not a moot point when it's pretty obvious most of the anger is directed directly at EA instead of where it should be, at the NCAA and NFL.

Just to be clear I'm personally against deals like this but I am really getting tired of hearing all of the arguements or innuendo about how EA is to blame for the demise of NFL2Kxx series and also the tired and ridiculious arguement that EA is a monopoly in regards to football games. They don't have a monopoly on football games, they simply have the licenses of football games which you guys prefer to play.

[njskillz]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

The problem is it's not the same. A car is a concept. What we speak of here is a league which isn't a concept in and of itself but a very specific licensed and branded product entitled to use by and for the sale of, as to how they chose, a group of individuals. The NFL for example does not have any decision making in the use of all football games, which would be akin to how your arguement paints them but only the football games using their specific branding that represents their league. Using your analogy of the Model T, it would be akin to someone else just one day begin to start making automobiles exactly like the Model T and calling them Model T's. They would be sued and put out of business pronto. Now someone else could, and did, make a new car to compete with the Model T, but they made their own car and didn't call it the Model T. Again going back to the common analogy given above, this would be akin to all of us being outraged that we can't have our choice of car manufacturers making various Model T's because we're unhappy with what Ford is doing with that particular model. The whole idea when phrased that way seems pretty ludicrous (or at least it should). Any company in the world right now could make a football game for any system, just not using the particular license of the NFL because the NFL chose to pick one company to make their a football game branded with their own particular product. Again, let me repeat that....the NFL CHOSE to eliminate competition. What this boils down to is that that people aren't demanding competition in the videogame football industry, it's that people are demanding competition in the NFL/NCAA videogame football industry which itself has declined to give it's consumers competition. Note that key words ...NFL DECLINED...COMPETITION... That is the difference between a monopoly and simply a calculated, legal yet unpopular business decision.. As for the person who said it's a moot point in this thread, it's not a moot point when it's pretty obvious most of the anger is directed directly at EA instead of where it should be, at the NCAA and NFL. Just to be clear I'm personally against deals like this but I am really getting tired of hearing all of the arguements or innuendo about how EA is to blame for the demise of NFL2Kxx series and also the tired and ridiculious arguement that EA is a monopoly in regards to football games. They don't have a monopoly on football games, they simply have the licenses of football games which you guys prefer to play.

The auto industry example I was thinking of was for example the Nissan Pathfinder. It comes in 4 models, S, SE, SE Off Road, and LE. A prospective buyer comes into a Nissan dealership with the idea of buying a Pathfinder. He has a choice of the bare bones model (S) all the way up to the fully loaded LE model. That's the point I was making in my auto analogy. No one else makes the Pathfinder (like no one else can make an NFL or NCAA licensed game except EA). Nissan is marketing to the Joe Blow with the S model, and a higher end clientele with the LE model. Both produced on the same line, with one receiving more attention to detail than the other because of the added features (Arcade version vs Sim version).
My issue is not with the fact that EA is the only one that can produce an NFL or NCAA licensed game. It is what it is. You made a decision to produce an Arena Football game. As I stated earlier, that is a niche market at best. My proposal can simply be viewed as EA having an opportunity to target another "niche" market. That being the hardcore NFL/NCAA FOOTBALL video gamer.
For the folks who seem to be alittle "put off" by my use of "hardcore" sports gamer, my definition is one who follows a particular sport religiously, who also has a passion for sports video games, knows that there is a fully licensed videogame of his favorite sport, and would like to recreate what he sees on Saturdays and Sundays. The "hardcore" sports gamer ONLY plays sports videogames. This same principle would apply to Tennis enthusiasts, NASCAR followers, Soccer, etc. I'm quite sure those types of hardcore sports gamers demand some type of level of realism to their sports videogame offerings as well. I'm a Football and BBall follower so that is my area of interest. The casual sports gamer has simply a passing interest in sports, so he couldn't care less whether tackling physics, o-line interaction, WR-DB interaction, etc. are handled in the most realistic manner in his sports video football game. He seems to be more concerned with showing off his skills in the cyber front office.
Again, this is my proposal for the consumer. The hardcore sports gamer made the folks at EA very rich initially. EA has since retired and are living off of their casual gamer pension.

[aukevin]

Quote: Originally Posted by jetsfansiny79

There shouldn't be a need to sell 2 diffrent games. They should make the acrcade option play like arcade (For those gamers who like 700 passing yards and 10 touchdowns a game) and the simulation should play like real football.

That's what I think. I don't see why a company would produce two different games when all they have to do is have different gameplay modes.

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by aukevin

That's what I think. I don't see why a company would produce two different games when all they have to do is have different gameplay modes.

I agree, that's a realistic hope as well unlike the original idea. If memory serves me right a few years ago, back on the PC Madden, like in 2001 or so, I believe there was actually an "arcade" mode and a "sim" mode. They just need to do that again and make the simulation mode much, much more realistic. Also, I believe this is how alot of racing games do their games, they have "arcade" mode and "sim" mode so this would be by far the closest we will ever come to fruition of this idea.

To be honest, although I've posted as much as anyone in this thread, I can't believe we're even debating/discussing this because it's pointless since it'll never happen.

And on a related note when NFL Head Coach comes out we will see about the "best" that EA can do in realism arena when it comes to football because of the fact that, without us being able to control the players, we should be able to see alot more different things added to the actual field of play that we wouldn't see otherwise. If NFL Head Coach is shot down by the "hardcore" gamers then I think the entire idea of EA making a "sim" football game should pretty much be abandoned entirely.

[njskillz]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

And on a related note when NFL Head Coach comes out we will see about the "best" that EA can do in realism arena when it comes to football because of the fact that, without us being able to control the players, we should be able to see alot more different things added to the actual field of play that we wouldn't see otherwise. If NFL Head Coach is shot down by the "hardcore" gamers then I think the entire idea of EA making a "sim" football game should pretty much be abandoned entirely.

You see ODogg, NOW we FINALLY get to the heart of the problem which, contrary to what you may think, was the point of my thread from the start. How you get NFL Head Coach is for the hardcore Sports gamer is beyond me. Going to Cyber film study meetings, having Cyber Conversations with your "players" and Upper Management, calling plays from the cyber Coaches box without having any use for the CONTROLLER sounds very much like an experience only the casual gamer could love. It falls along the lines of being able to build stadiums, price hot dogs, etc., stuff that EA has already mastered, hence the loyal casual following. If you can't understand the concept of using a controller in a sports videogame, I don't know what else to say.

By the way, a few years back would you have said EA would put out an Arena League Football game? Would you have said VC would put in a CRIBS feature in their games? Of course not. So I would not be so quick to brush off ideas simply because they do not conform to your sense of new age gaming.

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by njskillz

You see ODogg, NOW we FINALLY get to the heart of the problem which, contrary to what you may think, was the point of my thread from the start. How you get NFL Head Coach is for the hardcore Sports gamer is beyond me. Going to Cyber film study meetings, having Cyber Conversations with your "players" and Upper Management, calling plays from the cyber Coaches box without having any use for the CONTROLLER sounds very much like an experience only the casual gamer could love. It falls along the lines of being able to build stadiums, price hot dogs, etc., stuff that EA has already mastered, hence the loyal casual following. If you can't understand the concept of using a controller in a sports videogame, I don't know what else to say.

Because NFL Head Coach is about the X's and O's not the price of hot dogs, etc, you don't seem to know how deep that game is "supposed" to be, it's not just a rehash of Madden franchise without the ability to actually play the game. The X's and O's and the knowledge of actual football...well to me that to me is what being hardcore is all about, if that's not hardcore I don't know what is.

Quote: Originally Posted by njskillz

By the way, a few years back would you have said EA would put out an Arena League Football game? Would you have said VC would put in a CRIBS feature in their games? Of course not. So I would not be so quick to brush off ideas simply because they do not conform to your sense of new age gaming.

But putting out a new football game for a different league is entirely different than putting out two versions of the same game. As for me brushing off your idea because of my sense of new age gaming, I've been gaming since 1980 so i'm not buying into that. I am brushing off your ideas because it makes no business sense for EA.

[jfsolo]

Lets ignore the economic reality that they will never make two separate versions of the same game. For arguements sake lets say they do undertake this endeavor. I don't think they have the programmers with the ability to actually make the kind of game that serious sim players want. When I see some of the gameplay shortcuts that they take now It seems clear to me that they do so not because they necessarily want to, but because they lack the skills to do better.

I'm sure that there are some programmers out there who can do it, but I don't think they currently work at EA Tiburon.

[njskillz]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

Because NFL Head Coach is about the X's and O's not the price of hot dogs, etc, you don't seem to know how deep that game is "supposed" to be, it's not just a rehash of Madden franchise without the ability to actually play the game. The X's and O's and the knowledge of actual football...well to me that to me is what being hardcore is all about, if that's not hardcore I don't know what is. But putting out a new football game for a different league is entirely different than putting out two versions of the same game. As for me brushing off your idea because of my sense of new age gaming, I've been gaming since 1980 so i'm not buying into that. I am brushing off your ideas because it makes no business sense for EA.

ODogg, I will use Madden as an example. I'm quite sure you've seen various clips or maybe been a part of Madden tournaments right? These tournaments have gotten so big that I think they give out cash prizes as high as $10,000. What is it? Its two guys matching wits, calling plays, CONTROLLING the players, competing against one another. You say you've been in the game since the 80's well then you do have an idea of the Controller/Joystick and the reason for its existence.

By the way, I read a preview of NFL Head Coach. That is how I came up with my assessment. You read the preview on TeamXbox and you tell me how it translates to hardcore.

I have one question for you. Isn't there already an outlet for that type of "Coaching" activity, sans the virtual conversations with players, agents, etc.??? I think its called Fantasy Football. No one confuses fantasy football with actually playing a videogame (although the reason I grew frustrated with the NFL2K5 league I was in was because of the Fantasy Football bent it took with the ridiculous player trades).