NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Four: Kobe, Wall, Ross & More

[Sundown]

Quote: Originally Posted by BluFu

Keep quiet? Keep quiet for who? This is a forum Rashidi... get over yourself. You posted the chart for RPM trying to convince "us" (wait, who's us? ) that Evan freaking Turner is a better player than Kobe Bryant solely based on RPM. So, by that same hand, Middleton and Korver are better than Jimmy Butler and Klay Thompson... right? Man, Middleton really got snubbed from the allstar game.. . As I said before, there's nothing left to discuss.. Maybe you should let it go.

RPM is actually one of the better metrics. Incredulity and gifs don't change that.

For how bad Bryant was on both sides of the basket last season, Evan Turner probably did have a more positive impact. It doesn't mean I'd give Turner the same 2K rating, because RPM is more of a measure of fit, impact, and usage in a player's current role and not really a direct measure of skill or fit in another context. But Kobe was killing his team last season. There's no denying that. Kobe was bad by the eye test, the efficiency test, and the RPM test. When you fail all of them, you're... pretty bad. The only way to justify his rating are vague narratives that might have been true over two seasons ago. Like I said, an rating of 80-81 would already have been EXTREMELY generous and kind for such a negatively impactful and statistically terrible player.

Middleton and Korver are hugely impactful in their roles and Middleton has done especially well beyond expectations. But RPM is noisy so it's not meant to be used to say that Korver and Middleton is definitively better than Thompson or Butler based on minor differentials. It does rank both of them very well (because they're both also elite 3 and D + guys), and it very clearly illustrates all of these guys are infinitely more impactful than Kobe, so there's really nothing wrong with what Rashidi initially said, and to be fair, the Kevin Hart gif doesn't actually make much sense in that context.

[BluFu]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundown

For how bad Bryant was on both sides of the basket last season, Evan Turner probably did have a more positive impact. It doesn't mean I'd give Turner the same 2K rating, because RPM is more of a measure of fit, impact, and usage in a player's current role and not really a direct measure of skill or fit in another context. But Kobe was killing his team last season. There's no denying that. Kobe was bad by the eye test, the efficiency test, and the RPM test. When you fail all of them, you're... pretty bad. The only way to justify his rating are vague narratives that might have been true over two seasons ago.

If Rashidi had said 'Kobe didn't play well... oh and he ranks 53rd in RPM', that's a whole different discussion. But the fact that he's trying to say Evan Turner is better than (or as good as) Kobe because he ranked below him in RPM (based on the handful of games he could actually suit up for)... yeah. There's something really wrong with that right there. Why can I not then say Middleton is better than Jimmy Butler if we're only using one metric?

Once you get out of the mindset that Kobe completed a whole 82 game season playing that bad then you'll start seeing my point. Paul George might as well have started 2K15 with an 80 ovr because of how badly he played his last couple of months. But (I'll say it again) players aren't rated solely based off a couple of months of basketball.

I'm not trying to say Kobe played well, I'm trying to say a handful of games isn't worth completely blowing up his rating.

Rashidi, Sundown.. it was a pleasure talking to you but I've already given my 2 cents on this discussion.. There's no more to say.

Quote:

You can't give him an OVR rating completely based on his last season when he wasn't even close to completing it.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by BluFu

But the fact that he's trying to say Evan Turner is better than (or as good as) Kobe

What Rashidi actually said:

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

Kobe continues to get high ratings because there are casual clowns out there (that 2K doesn't want to piss off) who seriously think he is still on par with the likes of Jimmy Butler and Klay Thompson when the reality is he is a rich man's Evan Turner at this point.

Facts are important. Lies aren't.

Quote:

Once you get out of the mindset that Kobe completed a whole 82 game season playing that bad then you'll start seeing my point. Paul George might as well have started 2K15 with an 80 ovr because of how badly he played his last couple of months. But (I'll say it again) players aren't rated solely based off a couple of months of basketball. I'm not trying to say Kobe played well, I'm trying to say a handful of games isn't worth completely blowing up his rating.

Derrick Rose: 51 games, 1530 minutes
Carmelo Anthony: 40 games, 1428 minutes
Jrue Holiday: 40 games, 1303 minutes
Jose Calderon: 40 games, 1270 minutes
Dwight Howard: 41 games, 1223 minutes
Kobe Bryant: 35 games, 1207 minutes
Brandon Jennings: 41 games, 1173 minutes
Nick Young: 42 games, 1000 minutes
Paul George: 6 games, 91 minutes

One of these is not like the others.
1200 minutes and 35 games ain't a "handful".
Kobe stans would have you believe 1000 of those don't count and that he barely played.

The reality
Manu Ginobili: 1587 minutes
Cory Joseph: 1444 minutes
Marco Belinelli: 1388 minutes
Kobe Bryant: 1207 minutes
Aron Baynes: 1122 minutes
Tiago Splitter: 1030 minutes
Matt Bonner: 935 minutes
Patrick Mills: 801 minutes
Jeff Ayres: 383 minutes
Kyle Anderson: 351 minutes

It's MORE than enough to make informed decisions off of.

Quote:

Rashidi, Sundown.. it was a pleasure talking to you but I've already given my 2 cents on this discussion.. There's no more to say.

Next time bring the full dollar.

[Sundown]

Quote: Originally Posted by BluFu

If Rashidi had said 'Kobe didn't play well... oh and he ranks 53rd in RPM', that's a whole different discussion. But the fact that he's trying to say Evan Turner is better than (or as good as) Kobe because he ranked below him in RPM (based on the handful of games he could actually suit up for)... yeah. There's something really wrong with that right there. Why can I not then say Middleton is better than Jimmy Butler if we're only using one metric? Once you get out of the mindset that Kobe completed a whole 82 game season playing that bad then you'll start seeing my point. Paul George might as well have started 2K15 with an 80 ovr because of how badly he played his last couple of months. But (I'll say it again) players aren't rated solely based off a couple of months of basketball. I'm not trying to say Kobe played well, I'm trying to say a handful of games isn't worth completely blowing up his rating. Rashidi, Sundown.. it was a pleasure talking to you but I've already given my 2 cents on this discussion.. There's no more to say.

I think once you consider that Kobe has not played at any level of effectiveness in over two seasons, and has been terrible in extended stretches you'll see our point. It doesn't justify throwing out the non-significant data because of casual impressions or hopeful thinking, especially when it's consistent with a player's age, athletic decline, tendency, and injury history.


It's not a couple months of bad basketball in between a few productive seasons. It's a couple months of bad basketball, period, with nothing else to show for it.


Pretty much the only justification for keeping Kobe as high as an 85 is just wanting it to be that way.

It seems Rashidi never said Turner was "better" than Kobe (though I wouldn't be suprised if Turner does have less terrible impact than Kobe at this stage). He actually said Kobe was a rich man's Turner, which is actually giving him more benefit of the doubt than RPM does.


More importantly he said that Kobe is an inefficient chucking SG, 3 and D shooting guards are much more impactful, and RPM very clearly show both of those facts to be true. None of this is really that debatable. It feels that there's a case of a strawman argument here in trying to get RPM to make claims that it doesn't (nor anyone using it here has used it to do).

Quote:

You can't give him an OVR rating completely based on his last season when he wasn't even close to completing it.

You can and should give a player an OVR rating most heavily influenced by recent games, especially if those are the only games that are available in multiple seasons, and especially if they are a non-insignificant sample set.

You can't base an OVR rating almost completely on memories and performance data with a very short expiration date, throwing out the most relevant data due to injuries and popularity. If anything injuries should reduce ratings somewhat by default, especially when injuries are already correlated with the reduced performance evidenced.

In no other serious basketball analysis are injures used to excuse poor performance from being indicators of a player's actual performance level. And if we really WERE just using a few months of perfomance to guage Kobe with no further consideration, he would be a 73. Not a 81.

[BluFu]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundown

You can't base an OVR rating almost completely on memories and performance data with a very short expiration date, throwing out the most relevant data due to injuries and popularity. If anything injuries should reduce ratings somewhat by default, especially when injuries are already correlated with the reduced performance evidenced.

Fact of the matter is: Kobe's got more recent positive game data when healthy then he does negative data when not (78 in '12-13 vs 41 in '13-14 + '14-15).

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

Kobe Bryant: 35 games, 1207 minutes Paul George: 6 games, 91 minutes One of these is not like the others. 1200 minutes and 35 games ain't a "handful".

Just want to clarify... I was referring to Paul George's 13-14 season. Thus: "start of 2K15"..

Paul George in last 35 games of '13-14: 20.1 ppg 7.3 rpg 3.6 apg .387 FG%

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

Next time bring the full dollar.

'Shidi got bars!!

Don't worry, I've got plenty

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by BluFu

Fact of the matter is: Kobe's got more recent positive game data when healthy then he does negative data when not (78 in '12-13 vs 41 in '13-14 + '14-15).

If only that data applied to a post-Achillies tear version of Kobe Bryant. He's never going back to be "healthy" again, not in the context you're flailing for. This is where we put the calculator down and things like eyes and common sense kick in. The numbers SUPPORT and QUANTIFY what we see - that Kobe has lost a step and a half.

Quote:

Just want to clarify... I was referring to Paul George's 13-14 season. Paul George in last 35 games of '13-14: 20.1 ppg 7.3 rpg 3.6 apg .387 FG%

Which does nothing to refute the point that Kobe had a larger body of work than half of the players in the NBA.

As far as George goes, he was rated off his FULL body of work in 2014. You take the good games with the bad. You don't get to pick and choose which ones apply and call yourself unbiased.

[BluFu]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

He's never going back to be "healthy" again, not in the context you're flailing for.

What else do you see? Who's winning a ring in 2016?

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

Which does nothing to refute the point that Kobe had a larger body of work than half of the players in the NBA.

241... that's how many players played as many or more minutes than Kobe. You named the Spurs bench and a handful of other players... and Calderon lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

As far as George goes, he was rated off his FULL body of work in 2014. You take the good games with the bad. You don't get to pick and choose which ones apply and call yourself unbiased.

Finally... we've come full circle... This was my initial point. George can't and wasn't rated off his last 35 games because it wasn't a full body of work akin to how Rose's 6 games weren't used when he was being rated at the start of the year. Similar to how it's going to be for Paul George in 2K16... 35 games last season is not a full body of work. 6 games before that is not a full body of work. If you truly believe that career lows (as a starter) in minutes played and games played is a full body of work this discussion is pointless.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by BluFu

What else do you see? Who's winning a ring in 2016?

Don't need a crystal ball to know Kobe's achilles will never be the same.

http://regressing.deadspin.com/how-a...871/1453959464

This was all written BEFORE Kobe's lackluster 2015 campaign. He's another year older now. Keep refuting common sense though.

Quote:

241... that's how many players played as many or more minutes than Kobe. You named the Spurs bench and a handful of other players... and Calderon lol.

It goes without saying that if I named one team's bench and there are 30 teams in the league.... (Math is hard, I know)

Quote:

35 games last season is not a full body of work. 6 games before that is not a full body of work

Sorry, but you're just flat wrong here. Minutes played (the actual sample we are drawing from) is vastly more important than games played. You are still far off base implying that 35 games is anywhere close to the 10 Rose played in 2014 or the 6 George played this past season.

Quote:

If you truly believe that career lows (as a starter) in minutes played and games played is a full body of work this discussion is pointless.

I don't think you have any clue what "full body of work" realistically means. Kobe will never play 82 games in a season again. The odds of him even making it through 60 (ala Dwyane Wade) are exceptionally low.
Wade hasn't had a "full body of work" in 5 years but you don't hear anyone making excuses for the 4-years younger player.
LOL did you also think Brandon Roy didn't have a "full body of work" in 2011?
Chauncey Billups played 61 games in three years after tearing his achilies at age 34. Did his limited "body of work" stop his natural decline?

Kobe's a skilled basketball player but he can't stop time or regenerate limbs. Get over it.