Experience points versus Potential

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Quote:

I don't know why you guys hate the XP system so much. It is much better than the extremely flawed potential system. A C rating player is useless since they will never get above 80. The XP system is more about statistics and less about a potential rating which is the way it should be. Anyway onto my 3 important suggestions.

The reason the current experience system is bad is because you have to perform to get better, rather than getting better to perform. Your ratings should influence your stats, not vice-versa.

Conceptually an experience points system isn't terrible, but Madden's execution is. A player shouldn't get better because he is racking up stats because he shouldn't be able to rack up those stats without being able to perform that high to begin with.

Madden needs to limit the impact that on the field performance has on ratings, and give the player more opportunities to progress players during the week. My gameplan shouldn't be about playing to my strengths, not how to best progress my players. Madden's system puts weird opportunity costs where it shouldn't Steve Johnson shouldn't get worse because he didn't get 100 catches because my gameplan didn't involve him getting htat many catches. He should get mad at being underutilized but not worse.

As for a potential system, the C rated player isn't useless. He may never be a great starter but far from useless. The only reason he would be useless is because Madden doesn't require a full 53 man roster except for injuries; otherwise you just need 22 starters. Now the detractors say that the potential system doesn't account for breakout years, but the real question should be, why is your 70 ovr runningback with 60 ball carrier vision and 60 awareness running for 1500 yards. Is he really getting better because of his yards, or are his stats a product of his offensive line. Secondly, if your 70 ovr runningback is already rushing for 1500 yards, why does he even need to progress?

[soonermagic88]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaiser Wilhelm

The reason the current experience system is bad is because you have to perform to get better, rather than getting better to perform. Your ratings should influence your stats, not vice-versa. Conceptually an experience points system isn't terrible, but Madden's execution is. A player shouldn't get better because he is racking up stats because he shouldn't be able to rack up those stats without being able to perform that high to begin with. Madden needs to limit the impact that on the field performance has on ratings, and give the player more opportunities to progress players during the week. My gameplan shouldn't be about playing to my strengths, not how to best progress my players. Madden's system puts weird opportunity costs where it shouldn't Steve Johnson shouldn't get worse because he didn't get 100 catches because my gameplan didn't involve him getting htat many catches. He should get mad at being underutilized but not worse. As for a potential system, the C rated player isn't useless. He may never be a great starter but far from useless. The only reason he would be useless is because Madden doesn't require a full 53 man roster except for injuries; otherwise you just need 22 starters. Now the detractors say that the potential system doesn't account for breakout years, but the real question should be, why is your 70 ovr runningback with 60 ball carrier vision and 60 awareness running for 1500 yards. Is he really getting better because of his yards, or are his stats a product of his offensive line. Secondly, if your 70 ovr runningback is already rushing for 1500 yards, why does he even need to progress?

Dont really agree with this. Players in real life are valued by how they produce, so why should it be different in madden.
By your logic ( ratings aka "value" dictate stats) all first round draft picks should come into the league and be gamebreakers.
But thats not how it works, your value is based on your production, not production based on value.

[Mhurricane266]

To be fair I think it's somewhere in the middle.Progression should be both potential and work done on the field. To me the obvious answer would be to keep experience points..it adds a certain element to progression that I like but they can also bring back potential.

Players earn exp solely on their potential but also put in a formula that said players can also get slight xp gains from at on the field. Get rid of the dumb practice and this way that 2nd rd A potential LB is accumalting even if he is studying on the bench behind Patrick Willis and bowman. Gaining more xp than the D potential LB over in Seattle. Of course it would have to be cleaned up but this makes the draft more exciting and it makes it where you can't just draft any Joe Schmo just because he has the physical tangibles and buying awareness is cheap

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Quote: Originally Posted by soonermagic88

Dont really agree with this. Players in real life are valued by how they produce, so why should it be different in madden. By your logic ( ratings aka "value" dictate stats) all first round draft picks should come into the league and be gamebreakers. But thats not how it works, your value is based on your production, not production based on value.

Ratings aren't value though. They are representations of the players physical and mental abilities. The overall rating, when combined with the scheme modifier represents value to the AI. Producing more does in real life, make a player more valuable but the player produces more because his abilities (ratings) improved. The player doesn't improve his abilities by playing better, he plays better because he improves his abilities. Getting playing time can help better a player, but a QB doesn't get become a better QB because he threw for 4500 yards, he got better so he could throw for 4500 yards.

I'm not saying a player can't play above their ability, good teams allow players to play above their ability, as well as bad opposition. A good WR can make up for a bad QB and vice-versa. A bad CB can make an average WR look great but beating up on a bad CB doesn't make you a better WR or a better QB. You may get more confident, which Madden should represent as a modifier to ratings, like a hot streak, but it doesn't make you better. Your stone hands and sloppy route running don't magically improve.

Again, and experience points system is not theoretically an issue, but it suffers from terrible implementation is madden where unless you are a starter, you will never improve.

Quote:

To be fair I think it's somewhere in the middle.Progression should be both potential and work done on the field. To me the obvious answer would be to keep experience points..it adds a certain element to progression that I like but they can also bring back potential. Players earn exp solely on their potential but also put in a formula that said players can also get slight xp gains from at on the field. Get rid of the dumb practice and this way that 2nd rd A potential LB is accumalting even if he is studying on the bench behind Patrick Willis and bowman. Gaining more xp than the D potential LB over in Seattle. Of course it would have to be cleaned up but this makes the draft more exciting and it makes it where you can't just draft any Joe Schmo just because he has the physical tangibles and buying awareness is cheap

I disagree completely with getting rid of practice. The practice mode needs to be changed but not removed. Progression shouldn't come from being on the field, but from being off the field. Like I said, experience points aren't the problem, it is the production > better ratings instead of better ratings > production. The opportunity costs for which players to improve shouldn't come from my Sunday gameplan but what I do between Sundays.

The practice mode should be where the majority of XP is earned. You can select 22 players (instead of the whole team) to play in practice mode to gain XP for. That is your opportunity cost. Do you improve your starters, your rookie backup, your depth guys, or do you invest in the aging veteran to prevent regression. You still gain on the field points but not enough to truly change a player because a player shouldn't be playing so far above his ratings.

[Mhurricane266]

Well, I'm mostly right there with you.i agree practice is very important but I honestly think you are being VERY dismissive of actual playing time. I, as I'm sure many on the board, played high school and some college ball and actual time on the field during the game can have just as much,if not more, effect on you as a football player. When you don't have do overs and you have to go out there and perform in the real thing..that can do a lot for you. Your practice before everything view is kind of shaded in that aspect I think.

We still have to realize that this is a game..unless they start putting counters for playtime for each player In the game how can you account for that significant playing time? It's definitely valuable to get on the field as well. I agree it SHOULDNT be counted through stats but that's possibly the only way to account for playing time..of course as you gain years it becomes less important..as with the xp once you start hitting pro bowl status you don't get near as much/ everything costs an arm and a leg.

As far as practice goes it needs to be redone and made somewhat fun.. Right now it's tedious and I would rather not have to do it to properly progress my players which is the main reason I wouldn't care about it being taken out.i have 3 kids and limited time to play cfm I would rather not have to do 20 minute scenarios before each game.Just my opinion though.

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mhurricane266

Well, I'm mostly right there with you.i agree practice is very important but I honestly think you are being VERY dismissive of actual playing time. I, as I'm sure many on the board, played high school and some college ball and actual time on the field during the game can have just as much,if not more, effect on you as a football player. When you don't have do overs and you have to go out there and perform in the real thing..that can do a lot for you. Your practice before everything view is kind of shaded in that aspect I think. We still have to realize that this is a game..unless they start putting counters for playtime for each player In the game how can you account for that significant playing time? It's definitely valuable to get on the field as well. I agree it SHOULDNT be counted through stats but that's possibly the only way to account for playing time..of course as you gain years it becomes less important..as with the xp once you start hitting pro bowl status you don't get near as much/ everything costs an arm and a leg. As far as practice goes it needs to be redone and made somewhat fun.. Right now it's tedious and I would rather not have to do it to properly progress my players which is the main reason I wouldn't care about it being taken out.i have 3 kids and limited time to play cfm I would rather not have to do 20 minute scenarios before each game.Just my opinion though.

Playing time should help to, but stats shouldn't. Snaps should be counted. For CBs, I'd like to see targets, and catches against tracked.

Practice does need to be reworked, but how I am unsure. It should be fun and quick, instead of tedious and the last time I had fun practicing was the PS2 mini-games.

I'd say the best way to do it is to do a college overtime scenario. Offense gets points for scoring a touchdown, and defense gets points for field goal or less. That should take all of 5-10 minutes tops and is kinda fun. You paly both sides. If you succeed on offense your 11 offensive players get points, if you win on defense your 11 defensive players get points. If you win on both, everybody gets points. Also you would have to designate the 22players eligible for points.

[Mhurricane266]

If we could get ea to not be lazy and count snaps that would be awesome because I'm actually with you that stats shouldn't be the end all be all it's the amount of time in the game..and a short sweet practice like that is exactly what I'm taking about..that would actually be perfect for me I love that idea. Not this down by 78 pts crap with the 4th quarter left.

[NYG 5]

potential
natural progression
coaching of player
statistics


in that order. derek anderson had a great 2007, where is he?