Dirk or Hakeem?

[howardphillips214]

I commented on a video on YouTube calling Dirk the greatest international player of all time and got in an argument about this today. I've also been hearing how Steph "changed the game" a lot after his most recent title. Speaking from a 2K standpoint I definitely noticed a shift in gameplay after Steph's MVP season. But I am convinced Steph doesn't have the career he's had if it weren't for Dirk. The percentages of his career look fantastic as this was the FIRST year in his entire career he finished under 40% from distance for a regular season. Cap that with his 4th title and Finals MVP and every pundit and talking head has been debating Steph as a top 10 player.

But I'll even take it a step further. I truly believe Dirk has been the most INFLUENTIAL player in the entire NBA.

Most of Reggie and Ray Allen's careers never had the spacing Steph does now. While the Warriors took things a step further and making the 5-out offense a viable option, the league has really only been playing 4-1 sets since Dirk got drafted and started winning 50 games a year for over a decade. The Spurs are the only team that had a longer streak of making the playoffs but the Mavs never had the roster continuity of the Spurs and Duncan had much better coaching and a much better supporting cast than Dirk.

The 2 most unguardable shots in NBA history are the Skyhook and Dirks fadeaway midrange turnaround jumper, and not in that order.

The fact that Dirk is top 6 all time in scoring, an MVP, Finals MVP and NBA champion being the LONE all-star on the roster (1 of 7 times that happened) and beating the BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE at that time with 2 other MULTIPLE time All-stars is so frustratingly over-looked.

Dirk "changed the game" more than anyone in the history of the NBA IMO. Jordan made the league the most popular it's ever been. But his greatest achievement was OFF the court in how he revolutionized how athletes could get paid with endorsements in signing his Nike deal. The money he's made off merchandise VS his money he made while playing isn't even close. Lebron being a billionaire while still being an active player is remarkable. But there's not a SINGLE accomplishment on or off the court that Kobe and Jordan didn't make possible for him.

Dirk was COMPLETELY unknown when he got drafted and was thought of as a bust after his rookie season. The journey he took has never been duplicated and there's never been anyone CLOSE to his skill set since. The most comparable player since Dirk is maybe Kevin Durant and that's strictly due to his size, not his game. Catch and shoot, post game, and the fact he was NEVER as athletic as any of the members of the top 10 in scorers should not be forgotten. MULTIPLE paycuts and 21 years with the same franchise (to his own detriment I'll admit, especially after the 2011 season) and only Kobe can say 20 but he took almost 2 years off and was never the same after his Achilles injury.

Dirk COULD have retired 2 years earlier but was STILL efficient in his final season as I'm SURE he could still play spotty minutes for any team in the league RIGHT NOW.

If he never had to run the court or play defense, you could EASILY count on Dirk for 10-12 points a game till he was 50 if all he has to do was catch and shoot.

Steph and his showboating will get all the headlines. Jordan has his rings and his dunks. Kobe was mini-Jordan. Lebron is the most TALENTED player we've ever seen but has woefully underperformed EVEN with his super teams.

Dirk went about his business for 21 years and never had bad interviews. Was a consummate professional. Rewarded loyalty regardless of how it worked out for himself. "Changed the game" doesn't even cut it IMO. There's never been anyone like him and I don't believe we'll ever see it again. Luka has the POTENTIAL to surpass Dirk as the greatest international player and maybe already has. But unless he wins multiple championships and never leaves and retires in Dallas he might not even be the greatest MAVERICK.

[AIRJ23]

I dunno I think you’re majorly underselling how much Jordan revolutionized the game on the court. Imo by far more than anyone else. He made guards the spotlight position, not only did everyone copy his moves (I guarantee Dirk as much as anyone, especially those post fades) but the freelancing style of which he played, his jabs, his footwork, the way he played the game with this “punk rock amidst a Jazz band” style etc. He redesigned the game from the ground up and not one player today doesn’t heavily mimic him whether intentionally or not.

As for Hakeem vs Dirk, I have to go with Hakeem hands down. But I also recognize Dirk is worthy of all you said. I just think Hakeem would have benefitted exponentially under the post-2004 rule changes.

[The15thunter]

hakeem is the greatest international player of all time.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by howardphillips214

But I am convinced Steph doesn't have the career he's had if it weren't for Dirk.

You think a 7-foot big who peaked at 151 3PM in the regular season had a strong influence on the best deep-range volume shooter in league history. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what it looks like when hero-worship incapacitates critical thought.

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Dirk COULD have retired 2 years earlier but was STILL efficient in his final season as I'm SURE he could still play spotty minutes for any team in the league RIGHT NOW. If he never had to run the court or play defense, you could EASILY count on Dirk for 10-12 points a game till he was 50 if all he has to do was catch and shoot.

Dirk is 44 years old and could barely play spot minutes when he was 40. You have some heavy bias and it's evident throughout the rest of your hyperbolic arguments.

EDIT: Dirk had a 36-31-78 shooting line (47 TS%) in his final season and you claim he was efficient??? HE WAS COOKED JFC

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Lebron is the most TALENTED player we've ever seen but has woefully underperformed EVEN with his super teams.

Dirk lost to an 8th seed with a 67-win team.

Quote:

Luka has the POTENTIAL to surpass Dirk as the greatest international player and maybe already has. But unless he wins multiple championships and never leaves and retires in Dallas he might not even be the greatest MAVERICK.

Luka at age 22 made All-NBA 1st team for the 3rd consecutive season.
Dirk at age 22 wasn't even an All-Star yet (he made 1st team 4x in 21 seasons).

Luka will pretty clearly go down as the best player in franchise history.

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Dirk was COMPLETELY unknown when he got drafted and was thought of as a bust after his rookie season.

The #9 pick was "completely unknown". He was a gamble, just like 2x MVP Giannis (who was on everyone's radar).

Nikola Jokic, the 2x MVP taken in the 2nd round, would be much closer to that descriptor.

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The journey he took has never been duplicated and there's never been anyone CLOSE to his skill set since.

Karl-Anthony Towns exists (and has already eclipsed Dirk as the best shooting big). Beyond that, Dirk's "skill set" doesn't really exist anymore because bigs NEED to defend now or they're out of the league. Dirk is just a rich man's Bobby Portis in today's game.

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I truly believe Dirk has been the most INFLUENTIAL player in the entire NBA. Dirk "changed the game" more than anyone in the history of the NBA IMO.

He definitely wasn't/didn't but I certainly won't be the one to undo decades of cognitive dissonance.

[Smirkin Dirk]

lol. Get your head out of the spreadsheet.

KAT. Yet you accuse others of cognitive dissonance?

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Smirkin Dirk

lol. Get your head out of the spreadsheet.

Towns
779 3PM (1.6 per) in 482 games (Career 40 3PT%)
3.5 Career BLK%
9.7 Career ORB%
27.6 Career DRB%

Dirk
1982 3PM (1.3 per) in 1522 games (Career 38%)
1.9 Career BLK% (Career high: 2.9%)
3.3 Career ORB% (Career high: 5.3%)
21.9 Career DRB% (Career high: 28.3%)

You can pretend your namesake didn't have pronounced, exploitable weaknesses all you like.

Unlike KAT, Dirk COULDN'T play Center. This created major team building restrictions for DAL, and was ultimately why his playoff results were erratic relative to his peers (Duncan, KG). He got absolutely CRUSHED in the 1st round immediately after both of his Finals appearances. It was likewise why the team became first round fodder over his final 7 seasons.

Towns is very clearly in the same ballpark from a skillset perspective. Does he have Dirk's "unstoppable" fadeaway? No (but neither did Dirk for most of his career). KAT also does like 10 things better than Dirk EVER did (didn't even cover Playmaking, drawing contact, rim finishing, etc).

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KAT. Yet you accuse others of cognitive dissonance?

I don't think you understand what this term means.

Anyway, I have no idea what this topic has to do with NBA 2K. It sounds like OP got owned on Reddit and was hoping the echo chamber would ease the bruising.

[tru11]

Hakeem hands down.

Probably the best bigman ever.


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[mcdowell31]

lol A discussion like this, every now and then, breaks up the monotony of waiting for a working sim basketball game. Thanks, guys.