Madden 09 News Post

Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

11:17 PM - May 14, 2008 by beau21

EA Sports have updated their Madden NFL 09 blog with tackling engine details and a video clip.

Quote:


	"One of our primary pet-peeves in Madden NFL has been in the responsiveness of tackling. We wanted to feel like as a ballcarrier or defender you are always in more control. The feeling of delay before a tackle started really took away from responsiveness. Also the "suction" you get when being pulled into tackles, well, sucks. We found that the cause of the delay was searching through our 300 and some odd tackles for one that "matched" the current scenario as close as we can, and while this may only take 1/10th to 1/4th of second, I found that delay un-acceptable. So we invented a whole new way to tackle this year."

Game: Madden NFL 09Reader Score: 7/10 - Vote Now
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Member Comments

# 61 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 05:00 AM

I am happy that they've brought in a guy who worked with Fia and Homecourt. Now I don't know if he worked with the guys on Fifa08, but if he did, that is the best animated EA Sports title to date. And I can see the differences that the new animation system has made. Now I gotta agree with the guys who are rightly bringing up where it is still the same tackling AI with a animation upgrade. Since they've made it know that they have given up trying to implement In-game saves to tune instead, they really need to optimize the tackling/defensive pursuit AI. The fundimental problem is that it's too many 1 on 1 scenarios where the defenders have to get in line to take their turn at the ball carrier. They have to get it where 5 guys can all converge at the same point of attack at the same time. On the vid I actually saw where there were guys who had converged in the area in a realistic looking way. But they have to stand around or seem distracted by their offensive counterparts that are nearby. They are supposed to ALL go get the ball carrier. But it seems they can't. Of course Tiburon finally figured out how to get 2 man tackles right last year. (won't go there...)

I think at my "sim" anal heart, this is the kind of approach that Madden takes that just erks me. Football is a team sport, not a glorified set of 1 on 1's. Most decent power runners are going to win those battles. OK they seem to have gotten it where a runner can break those tackles now. But it just amplifies how bad Madden's team defensive AI is. Things like the fact that a safety comes all the way over to get in the conga line on a breakaway run instead of heading on an angle for the pylon just looks terrible and "high school." And that you can easily break the pocket because the DL can't get out of the suction block and seems to only be able to focus on the battle with the OL. He's always supposed to be in pursuit of the ball and has to read and react. Same thing with LB's and safeties. This is why they made play action. To confuse those reads. Otherwise the D will have a natural advantage.

There's just so much of Madden that is flawed. Down and distance don't matter. Fundimental coaching and football strategy don't. They have jukes to make every player into another Barry Sanders. And WWE-style hit sticks. You don't need all of that if you get the basics right. With proper blocking you can have the time for a decent receiver to get open. And with proper defensive AI you don't need every play to be a Ray Lewis highlight film. Please, I don't want everything now. Just use the time remaining to figure out how to get those guys from 2 yards away to where they need to be at the point of attack, and I'll be happy. And yes I know that they can't truly gang tackle yet..... But get it as close to "real" as possible.

# 62 AJ21476 @ 05/15/08 05:49 AM

Its the same every year and everyone gets hype only to be disappointed when the game comes out. The real truth on the game comes out about a week into the games release where you will see all types of EA Sucks threads.

# 63 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ21476


	Its the same every year and everyone gets hype only to be disappointed when the game comes out. The real truth on the game comes out about a week into the games release where you will see all types of EA Sucks threads.

I don't think the game sucks, per se. It's more that when they do something good it just tends to show the warts that much more. And with seeing how many other games this gen showing such advances, Madden looks more and more dated. And then the glitched and bugs start to show up after release. That's when the mud starts to fly. If you can't make it "new" at least don't send it broken!!!!

# 64 coogrfan @ 05/15/08 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nza


	Maybe in 1 on 1 situations, but the video clearly shows the phenomena remains in 2 or more vs 1 situations. About a quarter through, Jacobs is down the sideline and a Pats defender takes out his legs, while the other is knocked over like a bowling pin.

Not really. The second Pats defender (#27) fell down because Jacobs flipped over and collided with him on the way down. The "grenade explosion" animation we are talking about is the one where a defender goes flying for no apparent reason.

# 65 Nza @ 05/15/08 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coogrfan


	Not really. The second Pats defender (#27) fell down because Jacobs flipped over and collided with him on the way down. The "grenade explosion" animation we are talking about is the one where a defender goes flying for no apparent reason.

My post was in response to them fixing 1 on 1 situations where defender and ball carrier just run into each other without any real animation. They may have fixed that, but it clearly still remains for other defenders. It didn't look right for that situation, at the least they could make these extra defenders lead in with their shoulder and bounce off or miss entirely. It just so lazy and stupid to have a defender run into a tackle like that. Reminds me of cheap C grade karate movies where the bad guys just run in with no intent to really fight and fly off in some random direction.

# 66 SteelerSpartan @ 05/15/08 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nza


	My post was in response to them fixing 1 on 1 situations where defender and ball carrier just run into each other without any real animation. They may have fixed that, but it clearly still remains for other defenders. It didn't look right for that situation, at the least they could make these extra defenders lead in with their shoulder and bounce off or miss entirely. It just so lazy and stupid to have a defender run into a tackle like that. Reminds me of cheap C grade karate movies where the bad guys just run in with no intent to really fight and fly off in some random direction.

great analogy

# 67 callmetaternuts @ 05/15/08 08:17 AM

Looked good....hard to tell alot from a highlight video though

# 68 PVarck31 @ 05/15/08 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler99


	Great points! I honestly don't see any "earth-shattering" difference between this video and 08'? If this is considered one of their biggest improvements for 09' I'd say their time would have been much better spent on implementing IN-GAME SAVES and ACCELERATED CLOCK.

Really? So no gameplay improvements needed as long as they have In-game saves and accelerated clock? IMO the new tackling animations are a big difference.

# 69 FlyingFinn @ 05/15/08 08:21 AM

I didn't see 1 true gang tackle in that entire video.

Edit: The lighting in the stadium looks great. Th lighting on the players is pretty weak. There are bright spots where there shouldn't be (i.e. underarms) and there doesn't appear to be any self-shadowing.

# 70 myownsun @ 05/15/08 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ21476


	Its the same every year and everyone gets hype only to be disappointed when the game comes out. The real truth on the game comes out about a week into the games release where you will see all types of EA Sucks threads.

Honestly i am NOT impressed at all, the animations are still stiff and the player movement is still
awkward and robotic. But i will wait and see how the game plays before i write it off as more of the same and another year without a FBgame.

# 71 myownsun @ 05/15/08 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler99


	Great points! I honestly don't see any "earth-shattering" difference between this video and 08'? If this is considered one of their biggest improvements for 09' I'd say their time would have been much better spent on implementing IN-GAME SAVES and ACCELERATED CLOCK.

Agreed

# 72 marshallfever @ 05/15/08 08:59 AM

The game looks fantastic. This is definitely one year that i must purchase madden (Didn't purchase 08)

# 73 coogrfan @ 05/15/08 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler99


	OK, now your just being an idiot.

Buh-bye.

Obviously everyone wants to see a bug-free game, that isn't the issue here. Improving the basic interaction between players goes to the very core of Madden's gameplay, and will have a far greater impact than any other single change possibly could.

# 74 ProStylez @ 05/15/08 09:21 AM

Although I was not jumping out my seat while watching this video I did smile a few times which makes me want this game even more now. I don't remember so much info and video being released so early on Madden before, I think they are really trying to prove that they have made changes for the better and at the same time trying to win some customers back.
I'm sold....collectors edition will soon be mine

# 75 FlyingFinn @ 05/15/08 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProStylez


	Although I don't remember so much info and video being released so early on Madden before, I think they are really trying to prove that they have made changes for the better and at the same time trying to win some customers back.

I think sales were down last year so the hype machine was put into over drive.

# 76 ODogg @ 05/15/08 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler99


	No argument here ... my point is I don't see that significant improvemt in player interaction in this video. I really don't see an obvious difference between this video and what I have seen playing 08' as far as player interaction.

Just curious...how is no suction tackling, faster and more varied animation collisions and the ability to have multiple ways of breaking tackles no difference?

# 77 Rocky @ 05/15/08 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjv31


	Really? So no gameplay improvements needed as long as they have In-game saves and accelerated clock? IMO the new tackling animations are a big difference.

Yeah, I didn't get that statement at all. I agree 100% here.

At the same time BrianKingsfan and Finn made some great points. WAAAAAY too much 1 on 1 interaction. Defenders just stopping when the ball carrier is right in front of them. I want to see at least two of them get in on the play (ala APF)

# 78 Rashad19 @ 05/15/08 09:44 AM

After watching this video their is nothing in it other than a few new tackling animations. Let's be honest here...after you watched the video three or four times the novelty of seeing new footage wore off and you realized that all in all the tackling engine received a minor touch up from 08. Simply put this game needs a NEW engine altogether!! I don't understand why we are so quick to applaud the half hearted attempts EA throws our way. How many times are we going to let them question our intelligence? Until we see 3-4 man gangtackling, running backs pushing piles forward or being pushed back, no suction blocking, and 11 men swarming to the football with accurate pursuit angles who can all engage the ballcarrier we are still light years away from a true next generation football game.

# 79 poster @ 05/15/08 09:53 AM

Better, but still lacking. The graphics are amazing though and it seems that Madden is trying to get some little things into the game moreso than NCAA. Need to see more than an EA marketing video though before I say more.

# 80 DaveDQ @ 05/15/08 10:13 AM

He makes this comment...

"This means that we can procedurally manipulate the animation based on physics without losing the personality and life of the characters the way ragdoll does, and without losing the creativity the animators can put into the motion."

I believe that's a response to what Natural Motion is doing. Right now the love is flowing for Natural Motion and Euphoria, but in reality, their physics engine is far too ragdoll looking.

There's still sliding in this video. When a second or third defender is around a tackle, he'll sometimes slide around on his feet. That's what's I think has always made Madden look so twitchy. I do agree though with his overall premise that things are reacting faster. That's the difference this year. It's not the new animations, it's the responsiveness of them and how they are happening quicker than in years past.

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