Madden 09 News Post

Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

11:17 PM - May 14, 2008 by beau21

EA Sports have updated their Madden NFL 09 blog with tackling engine details and a video clip.

Quote:


	"One of our primary pet-peeves in Madden NFL has been in the responsiveness of tackling. We wanted to feel like as a ballcarrier or defender you are always in more control. The feeling of delay before a tackle started really took away from responsiveness. Also the "suction" you get when being pulled into tackles, well, sucks. We found that the cause of the delay was searching through our 300 and some odd tackles for one that "matched" the current scenario as close as we can, and while this may only take 1/10th to 1/4th of second, I found that delay un-acceptable. So we invented a whole new way to tackle this year."

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Member Comments

# 101 LBzrule @ 05/15/08 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rashad19


	This is exactly what I meant Briankingsfan!! Why applaud EA for submitting a blog that barely scratches the surface on truly improving gameplay. After reading these new feature blogs and seeing them in action in teaser films we should be chomping at the bit to get our hands on the game. Why? Because they are showing us ground breaking and new innovative features that we have not experienced before. If they can't reach that level atleast give us so many new animations that it appears to be a new game even if the engine is the same. Right now the gameplay is stale!! If they would have shown LT hit the hole get tripped up by a diving defender and go into an animation where he put his third leg down(his arm) and continue to fight to regain his balance all while diving forward to reach the first down marker this board would have gone wild!!My entire point here is bring a new freshness to the game and not the same old animations we have been seeing for the last few years. Go in create a ton of new animations if your not going to change the physics engine and re-program the players to behave according to the responsibilities of thier positions!!! Is that so hard?

I see what you are saying, but they are just not going to do the scenario you described. It goes back to what I said in another thread. They have their own processes and that is not going to change. For one, from what I understand all of their animations are hard coded. Even the simply ones like DB backpedal. For them to do the situation you just described would take them ohh my gawd. Not to mention we wouldn't want it to be predetermined, we'd want there still to be some degree of novelty within that situation. And that's the benefit of euphoria I suppose. Developers wouldn't have to do all the work of hard coding animations, but of course some people are too big and proud for that.

# 102 LBzrule @ 05/15/08 12:24 PM

And Brian you are right, they do not have individual player logic, it's all routines. I'm not going to talk about VC too much here but that's one of the big distinctions between the two games.

# 103 NYG_Meth @ 05/15/08 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltron


	Could you explain? I don't really expect an EA blog to come out and say NaturalMotion but the way they went about taking a jab at newer physics systems in football games is apparent to me at least.

Ragdoll physics makes characters go limp. It was initially created to simulate death animations. NaturalMotion gives characters behaviors that cause the characters to act intelligently, looking out for themselves. For example, in a football game, a ball carrier with ragdoll physics, when tackled, will go limp, or if he's supposed to break the tackle, a pre-canned break-tackle animation will play. With NaturalMotion, depending on the angle and force behind the tackle, the ball carrier will react accordingly WITHOUT ANY pre-canned animation. I'm not too good at explaining this, but trust me, there's a HUGE difference between ragdoll and NaturalMotion. Maybe someone else can help me out...

# 104 SageInfinite @ 05/15/08 12:41 PM

1 thing's for sure, we've come a long way from Madden 06 on next gen.
That's why I think EA/Tiburon is so proud of the game this year. Look how far its come. The only thing is that they started off so badly. Had they started with a solid foundation, who knows how far this series would be now.

# 105 SidVish @ 05/15/08 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageTheInfinite


	1 thing's for sure, we've come a long way from Madden 06 on next gen. That's why I think EA/Tiburon is so proud of the game this year. Look how far its come. The only thing is that they started off so badly. Had they started with a solid foundation, who knows how far this series would be now.

Yeah it's not our fault that they started at such a low point known as 06. Lol. I think that video looks good but I need to see more gameplay video and if the turnover problem is fixed I think I might actually be picking this up.

# 106 Rashad19 @ 05/15/08 12:57 PM

Quote:


	I see what you are saying, but they are just not going to do the scenario you described. It goes back to what I said in another thread. They have their own processes and that is not going to change. For one, from what I understand all of their animations are hard coded. Even the simply ones like DB backpedal. For them to do the situation you just described would take them ohh my gawd. Not to mention we wouldn't want it to be predetermined, we'd want there still to be some degree of novelty within that situation. And that's the benefit of euphoria I suppose. Developers wouldn't have to do all the work of hard coding animations, but of course some people are too big and proud for that.

I hear ya LBZrule!! They can hype this "New tackling engine" all they want to the unsuspecting consumer but it's not going to fly with me. I am throwing my blind dedication and belief in this Madden title out the window and assessing it honestly. The graphics are awesome, allowing us to see all our receivers is a step forward, stat overlays and play-by-play commentary is a plus, but the gameplay and player interaction I have seen so far is out dated/stale!! It's time for these developers and producers to take this game to the next level gameplay wise! I welcome the influx of information we are being provided but I refuse to take everything their feeding us as the gospel.

# 107 SageInfinite @ 05/15/08 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowitzki41


	Yeah it's not our fault that they started at such a low point known as 06.

Exactly. Madden 06 should have never been released and IMO neither should have 07. Both were terrible for me. Had 08 been 06 minus the bugs I know I would be a little easier on EA. Who knows what 09 would be looking like now if that was the case. As many people have said tho, no matter how pretty you dress up a pig, it's still a pig, and Madden 06 was 1 ugly *** pig. Sadly for most of us, the closest shot we have at getting a more advanced NFL title is when the next crop of systems pop up, and even then EA will probably still be trying to dress up a pig, lol.

# 108 JRod @ 05/15/08 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageTheInfinite


	1 thing's for sure, we've come a long way from Madden 06 on next gen. That's why I think EA/Tiburon is so proud of the game this year. Look how far its come. The only thing is that they started off so badly. Had they started with a solid foundation, who knows how far this series would be now.

Sorry but it's taken two years to get to this point, where we can finally say it's a next gen football experience.

Except that it's really not next gen football experience.

The tackling engine just looks like they added more animations not really football tackling. The AI is mostly the same with tweaks every year. The playbooks are still straight out of the Sega Genesis days.

I'm seeing more innovation in Head Coach than I am madden. EA's biggest problem is that they don't know what they want Madden to be. Do they want it to be a sim or a casual sim to catch their beloved casual gamers. Since they don't know, this indecision shows in the quality of the game. Madden doesn't know what it is right now.

# 109 Deltron @ 05/15/08 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYG_Meth


	Ragdoll physics makes characters go limp. It was initially created to simulate death animations. NaturalMotion gives characters behaviors that cause the characters to act intelligently, looking out for themselves. For example, in a football game, a ball carrier with ragdoll physics, when tackled, will go limp, or if he's supposed to break the tackle, a pre-canned break-tackle animation will play. With NaturalMotion, depending on the angle and force behind the tackle, the ball carrier will react accordingly WITHOUT ANY pre-canned animation. I'm not too good at explaining this, but trust me, there's a HUGE difference between ragdoll and NaturalMotion. Maybe someone else can help me out...

I see what you're saying and keep in mind I've heard of NaturalMotion before, and I know it's a trademarked process which I wouldn't expect EA to mention by name. I think the main premise of my point was that the part of the blog which referenced ragdoll physics appeared to downplay its utility in an effort to prop up EA's improved processes involving motion captured animations.

From NaturalMotion's site:

"One can think of it as biology meeting robot control theory. euphoria integrates with a game's existing physics engine, which provides the basic body physics (commonly known as 'ragdoll physics'). euphoria adds life to the dead physics simulation."

So to me, NaturalMotion appears to fall under the category of ragdoll physics, albeit an definitely enhanced version. Yet, I think, EA, by broadly mentioning ragdoll physics as a different method of animation, attempted to take on some of the criticism about their animations and in turn subtly undermine newer animation systems that are coming to the forefront of football games.

# 110 yamabushi @ 05/15/08 01:16 PM

Why does it not surprise me that 10ths of a second increase in speed, and some new animations (for one-on-one tackles only) on this out of date game engine get hyped and praised like the second coming?
In any other game this wouldnt even get mentioned.

# 111 LBzrule @ 05/15/08 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRod


	Sorry but it's taken two years to get to this point, where we can finally say it's a next gen football experience. Except that it's really not next gen football experience. The tackling engine just looks like they added more animations not really football tackling. The AI is mostly the same with tweaks every year. The playbooks are still straight out of the Sega Genesis days. I'm seeing more innovation in Head Coach than I am madden. EA's biggest problem is that they don't know what they want Madden to be. Do they want it to be a sim or a casual sim to catch their beloved casual gamers. Since they don't know, this indecision shows in the quality of the game. Madden doesn't know what it is right now.

LOL identity crisis. Although I'd take a different spin. They do know what they want the game to be. But what they want it to be is damn near impossible for it to be. They want it to be everything for everybody. They want it to be sim, casual sim, arcade ect. This eclecticism shows in the quality of the game.

# 112 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	LOL identity crisis. Although I'd take a different spin. They do know what they want the game to be. But what they want it to be is damn near impossible for it to be. They want it to be everything for everybody. They want it to be sim, casual sim, arcade ect. This eclecticism shows in the quality of the game.

I totally agree!

# 113 DaveDQ @ 05/15/08 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYG_Meth


	Ragdoll physics makes characters go limp. It was initially created to simulate death animations. NaturalMotion gives characters behaviors that cause the characters to act intelligently, looking out for themselves. For example, in a football game, a ball carrier with ragdoll physics, when tackled, will go limp, or if he's supposed to break the tackle, a pre-canned break-tackle animation will play. With NaturalMotion, depending on the angle and force behind the tackle, the ball carrier will react accordingly WITHOUT ANY pre-canned animation. I'm not too good at explaining this, but trust me, there's a HUGE difference between ragdoll and NaturalMotion. Maybe someone else can help me out...

That's what's supposed to happen, but that is not what is happening with Backbreaker. In their latest video, while it is impressive, there are several instances of defenders no responding "naturally." Also, bodies are distorted far too much in tackles. I think it's a great sign of where things can be, but I'd question if the total package is going to be all that impressive. The Natural Motion/Euphoria way of physics is excessive ragdoll like movement. I think GTA is proof of that. That's not said to be negative because I think it's better than what we've seen so far. I just don't think it's the digital gold many are claiming.

# 114 Vadiplomat04 @ 05/15/08 01:30 PM

I like how people are already judgeing this game based off of one video....LOL. If you want to know what this engine looks like in action, watch the NCAA videos that OS took at the EA event. Thats more of what you'll see in Madden, then the video posted on the blog.

PS. there are gang tackles in this video, but they happen so fast in the trailer you don't see it. Watch some of the video frame by frame and you'll notice so of the little stuff that you can't see when playing it at regular speed. ***There is a gang tackle by Ray Lewis and Suggs that looks very real....but it happends really fast...somebody look for it in the trailer.

# 115 roadman @ 05/15/08 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamabushi


	Why does it not surprise me that 10ths of a second increase in speed, and some new animations (for one-on-one tackles only) on this out of date game engine get hyped and praised like the second coming? In any other game this wouldnt even get mentioned.

There will be people that praise it, and people who don't praise it and say , same ole same ole.

It is what it is.

There is still three months left to release and people are praising or nit picking on the candy that EA is throwing out.

The game is probably already finished except for the bug fixes and tune ups. There isn't much more EA can add for this version.

# 116 SidVish @ 05/15/08 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	LOL identity crisis. Although I'd take a different spin. They do know what they want the game to be. But what they want it to be is damn near impossible for it to be. They want it to be everything for everybody. They want it to be sim, casual sim, arcade ect. This eclecticism shows in the quality of the game.

Truth. EA wants to cater to EVERYBODY but it just isn't feasible. We the super sim gamers just get the short end of the stick and that's just the way it is.

# 117 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vadiplomat04


	I like how people are already judgeing this game based off of one video....LOL. If you want to know what this engine looks like in action, watch the NCAA videos that OS took at the EA event. Thats more of what you'll see in Madden, then the video posted on the blog. PS. there are gang tackles in this video, but they happen so fast in the trailer you don't see it. Watch some of the video frame by frame and you'll notice so of the little stuff that you can't see when playing it at regular speed. ***There is a gang tackle by Ray Lewis and Suggs that looks very real....but it happends really fast...somebody look for it in the trailer.

Not two man tackles. Multi-player (3 or more) converging tackles, resulting in a pile. This is what EA has been able to accomplish so far. We know they can do two. But then everyone else has to wait for that animation to clear. We're talking about the third man joining in and so forth and so on....

# 118 BrianFifaFan @ 05/15/08 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	There will be people that praise it, and people who don't praise it and say , same ole same ole. It is what it is. There is still three months left to release and people are praising or nit picking on the candy that EA is throwing out. The game is probably already finished except for the bug fixes and tune ups. There isn't much more EA can add for this version.

Why do you have to do that? Every thread you have to try to derail legit conversation because you like the game and are offended? I'm not trying to pick a flamewar, but dang man......We get it you like it.....Heck even Countryboy and ODogg get into constructive conversations....

# 119 FlyingFinn @ 05/15/08 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briankingsfan


	Not two man tackles. Multi-player (3 or more) converging tackles, resulting in a pile. This is what EA has been able to accomplish so far. We know they can do two. But then everyone else has to wait for that animation to clear. We're talking about the third man joining in and so forth and so on....

The occurances of 2 man tackles are rare at best. Most every scenario in madden comes down to 1 on 1 play.

# 120 Vadiplomat04 @ 05/15/08 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briankingsfan


	Not two man tackles. Multi-player (3 or more) converging tackles, resulting in a pile. This is what EA has been able to accomplish so far. We know they can do two. But then everyone else has to wait for that animation to clear. We're talking about the third man joining in and so forth and so on....

I have seen 3 man interaction and one 4 man interaction in the NCAA OS videos

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