Madden NFL 11 News Post

Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

04:01 PM - November 17, 2010 by RaychelSnr

One more nugget from the Cowen and Company piece is that Madden sales are in fact down 18% year over year for the month of October:

Quote:


	"Even with disappointments for NHL 11 and Medal of Honor, EA's software sales grew 17 percent year over year in October. EA Sports MMA sold 45,000 units, and the Madden NFL franchise is down 18 percent year over year."

If you recall, I predicted in a blog post back in late August ('Are Madden Sales Slipping?') that Madden sales would probably end up down even after initial reports showed the game's sales were up 12% back in August. But an 18% drop was far more than I ever expected, that's nearly a 1/5 cut in top-line revenue from one of EA's biggest franchises on a Y-o-Y basis. If the trend continues, Madden sales could end up down substantially with the all-important Winter Shopping Season approaching.

That's incredibly bad news.

There is a lot of speculation as to why sales have slowed so much so fast, but I believe the reasons are the same now as I initially thought back then: consumers aren't impressed with the direction of the Madden series with so many other options for them to partake in. The longevity of the game is definitely in question and the word of mouth factor seems to be non-existent this year.

This is easily a referendum on the direction of the direction of the series, especially if trends continue to hold through December. I initially thought there wouldn't be much panic from the suits at EA, but this was before the Elite Fiasco hit the world, so now you can never be too careful when trying to prognosticate what EA might do next.

No doubt the decision makers at EA know exactly about the slip in sales of the Madden franchise, which are slowing substantially moreso than previous years after being on store shelves. So whatever panic decisions/reshuffling you would expect have probably already been made in some regards, although some may not be made until the Christmas shopping season is over. There is definitely increasing pressure on the Madden team to perform, and if sales do come in flat to somewhat down there could be some changes to the gameplan going forward.

This is definitely not good news for gamers who have liked the direction of Madden for the past couple of years if this trend holds into the Christmas shopping season. Also just as alarming is Madden's shrinking sales to the hardcore gamers on the top platforms, with sales down between 30% and 40% depending on how you calculate game sales and from whom from it's high in the middle of the last decade.

This is an interesting story we'll continue to follow. In the meantime, do you think we'll see some big changes in the direction for Madden NFL 12?

[ Update ] It's not clear whether Cowen and Company's analyst was commenting on the entire sales volume from Aug-Oct or just in the Month of October. Either way, that would only slightly give the news a bit less negativity for EA -- but it'd still be very negative news. We'll keep on this story.

[ Update #2 ] After analyzing the data and receiving word from a few trusted analysts this is definitely a Monthly drop from last October of 18%. This means after Madden sales started out on a rush, they have plummeted as the product has stayed on store shelves. The real test will be the Christmas shopping season. Roughly 30% of Madden's sales come from Christmas-time sales. If sales are still down substantially in November and then December, things could get ugly for EA. As it is right now though, this is a sharp drop worth watching. Edited the original article to reflect these clarifications.

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Member Comments

# 201 dj101 @ 12/02/10 10:54 AM

It's almost like we're close to, if not already approached, the 1-15 season for EA-Madden. Trying to patch the team with gimmicks/free agents has not worked. It's now time for a regime change, and to completely start rebuilding the franchise from the bottom up. The answer is in your own game, EA. You'd have already seen that/understood that, had you actually paid attention to Franchise Mode.

# 202 Only1LT @ 12/02/10 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araxen


	Well I picked it up off Amazon on a Black Friday deal for $25 so EA isn't making too much of a profit from that. I would be surprised if Amazon made any profit off it. I had no intentions of picking up Madden this year but at that price it was hard to beat. I wanted to see my RTG Player from NCAA play in the NFL but I wasn't paying $60-40 for that experience.

Why would you think that EA wouldn't make any money off of your purchase, just because you got it on sale? EA sold the game to Amazon already. What they do with it after that doesn't affect them. They cashed Amazon's check months ago.

Now if you don't care about sending EA a message, then that's fine, but if you do, then you just helped them, because by buying a copy of Madden, you just depleted inventory and pushed Amazon that much closer to ordering more, thus increasing EA's sales of Madden.

I'm not saying that I am for or against that position, but from your comment, you seemed to be thinking about how your purchase did or did not affect EA, so I was just giving you clarification on your misconception.

# 203 Ciws1 @ 12/03/10 11:16 PM

I recently got to play the latest Madden game that a friend of mine has. He couldn't stop raving about it so i gave it a shot. To be honest i couldn't support his enthusiasm. Sorry but i went back to 2K5. Now I'm not a 2K fanboy but I have to say there was a reason why the games back then in 04, 05 were better on both sides of the line. Competition.

EA figured if it got exclusive license then it would gain more of the market. The problem is this wiped out the competition, and by that i don't mean in a Sporting way.

I remember back when there were many different companies were making NFL, MLB, and NBA titles. You got different approaches to each and different innovations in each. High School economics even tells us that when a business is forced to compete for the market, then the product either improves or dies. EA Bought the exclusive rights and since then as they have no competition their product has become stale. The same has happened in their NASCAR line up as well.

EA Shot themselves in the foot unfortunately and now they are losing 20% of their sales because of it. No matter what company you root for be it EA, 2K, Sega, or Acclaim or any of the dozens of others you have to see that with out each other their products just wouldn't have become what they did. The Variety is gone, the innovation and willingness to try something new and unexplored is gone.

In the end what i saying is that the thing that EA needs is an opponent. Without someone to wage war with (in a game development sense) they just can't make a better product that will satisfy anyone. Odd concept but competition for the sale would improve their own sales and their product quality. imo

# 204 aTTckr @ 12/04/10 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlc12576


	Ok, I think this whole "Madden needs competition for improvement" logic, is being overstated. Competition brings out the BEST but doesn't create something that's not already there. M. Jordan was a good and talented player already but strong competition from other great players brought out the BEST in him. Likewise with other good and talented people in the history of the world, with their rivals pushing them on to be their BEST. The lack of competition is no excuse for Madden not being the type of NFL football game we should have by now, in 2010. Im not saying Madden 11 is a terrible game but it's by no means a standard for a NFL game created in 2010. Madden 11 can't even COMPETE with Madden 2005 and NFL 2k5 in certain areas, so competition from a NFL game in 2010 would have little impact in the quality of Madden, IMO. I am all for competition but I dont believe it would make Madden any better at it's core. I preferred 2k's NFL football games but if Madden 11 was a 2010 quality game, I wouldn't care about 2k making another NFL game. If EA was committed to trying to address Madden's legacy issues (like unrealistic QB dropbacks), simulatimg actual NFL football, real network broadcasting, player personalities and team franchise management, it would have a solid, better selling game. NBA Live had competition for a LONG time, the core of that game didnt get solid until NBA Live 10. Then, EA abandoned the improvements and went with a whole new game that got cancelled for this year. To those people that believe having competition will make Madden better, not necessarily. Remeber, EA didnt buy the exclusive license because of fear of the competition, the NFL finally sold it because of NFL 2k5's price drop. I honestly think EA could careless what other games or companies do, they think they know what's best, IMO. NFL game competition would cause a huge decrease in Madden complaints because gamers would have choices, not because Madden became so much better.

Sorry but that is not true. If the competitor delivers a much better game, Madden won't sell as many units as it does today. If this goes on for 1 or 2 years, the bosses at EA would want radical changes.

But without a competitor why would they want to change their cashcow? From a business standpoint that would be a dumb idea. Because change always means danger. And to be honest EA doesn't care about the quality of the game, they care about the the money the get. And since they are a publicly traded company you can't really fault them for that.

Just for example: Do you really think that Elite would have been cancelled if they had the exclusive license and there were no 2k11? Of course they would have released it, because NBA fans just like us NFL fans have to buy their updated annual game.

# 205 PhillyJim76 @ 12/04/10 09:18 PM

What he said. If EA held an exclusive license for hoops, we'd be stuck with NBA Elite.

# 206 roadman @ 12/05/10 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlc12576


	You are both missing my point, I think. NBA Live was an inferior game to the competition, IMO, for a LONG time. EA just changed that game up in 2009 for only one year, just to abandon that direction in favor of NBA Elite. If those decisions are any indication of what EA would do with NFL competition, that does NOT mean competition would improve Madden. If you notice EA's track record, they dont try to improve on past success and do what works, better. Instead, they try to "innovate" and blaze their own trail, to their detriment, IMO. NBA Live 10 was on solid ground to begin to compete with NBA 2k but instead of building on that, they tried to "innovate" and made unreleased NBA Elite. Lots of sports games have had success using tv style network broadcast presentation but EA decided to "innovate" with Beyond Broadcast. When faced with competition EA seems to try "innovation" and that hasn't done much to improve next-gen Madden thus far. Like I said before, I want NFL competition in video games but that's so I can have a different game to play. This talk of competition improving Madden sounds good but has little actual merit based on EA's track record. NFL video game competition would result in more EA "innovation" for Madden and I think that's the main problem with the game now. For Madden to be a better NFL simulation game, it needs less EA "innovation" and more NFL orthodoxy.

How soon everyone forgets MVP Baseball, FIFA Soccer and NHL Hockey. EA abandoned Triple Play Baseball and didn't produce a baseball game for 1.5 yrs. All of a sudden, out came MVP Baseball came out and it was a pretty authentic game of baseball vs Triple Play's arcade style. They were going up against HH Baseball, MLB Baseball, All Star Baseball . FIFA Soccer and NHL Hockey(from what I read) is constantly improving because they have competition.

So, EA can turn out good to great games based on competition based off their past track record.

# 207 roadman @ 12/05/10 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlc12576


	All that maybe true Roadman but I was speaking more about next-gen sports titles. EA's idea of "innovation" now seems to be creative ways to get more money from the consumer year round andcasual gamer gimmicks, not improving the core game. I mainly saying that just because Madden somehow has competition again doesn't automatically equate to a better Madden. It seems to me that quite a few posters think that's the case but EA's next-gen track record shows this is not a given.

Forget about MVP, then.

So, isn't FIFA and NHL on "next gen?" Those 2 games have innovated with competition on next gen.

Check out the forums on these games if you are not familiar with them. Over the last few years, they've made major improvements with competition.

That's the track record I'm going by. I think you are focusing too much on the basketball track record.

# 208 roadman @ 12/05/10 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlc12576


	I personally don't believe the competition has any bearing on what EA does with its' games. Granted, I haven't played their NHL or FIFA games but I don't see how competition can be credited with pushing EA to make these games better. It seems to me that EA just does what they want with their sports titles and sometimes that works and other times it doesn't. All that is just my opinion though. Now for the facts. You can't cherry pick a track record just for the good or bad alone, you have to look at the whole record. With some sports games that EA has had competition in, EA has produced some good games while some others have not been that good. That's a fact, so competition for Madden does not mean the game will improve, it MIGHT or it MIGHT NOT. If you noticed my first post about this I said "not necessarily". Once again, Im not saying it can't happen but based on EA's track record with competition, it is not a given like I think some are suggesting/thinking.

And I was acknowledging that EA does innovate in other sports games with competition. I think in the last paragraph you agreed with that.(didn't see that in other posts because of your exp. w/NBA Live)

As far as your last sentence, of course, that is a wait and see situation. Time will tell.

I feel the overall feeling is that competition breeds better yearly sports games. It might not be true for NBA Live, but it was true when Madden and other football games were competing, plus with FIFA and NHL thrown in, there is a reason for optimism in this area.

# 209 roadman @ 12/06/10 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlc12576


	Yeah they have innovated with competition but I don't think it is BECAUSE of competition. EA has "innovated" next-gen Madden without competition but that hasnt translated all that well into making it a better game, IMO. When I think of competition making something better, I think of one game doing something better one year and then the other game trying to outdo them in that area next year. Like if Game A had a better presentation than Game B, the next year Game B works hard to make their presentation better than Game A. However, that's not what EA does with its' sport titles. If a competitors game does something better, EA just tries to add something totally different to their game. That doesn't make much sense to me when we are talking about sports titles, both games are supposed to be "simulating" the actual sport. If Game A has a good tackling animations, Game B should strive for a better tackling animations, not "innovate" a new tackling system that's incomplete and looks WORSE. EA "innovates" Madden and NHL without competition, when faced with competition, EA might just innovate more but that doesn't mean Madden will be better. We are both seeing the same things but have vastly different interpretations of what's happening and that's cool.

Yeah, your right, it's cool that we have different interpretations.

You are looking at Madden and Live, I'm trying to bring NHL and FIFA into the picture. It's been very competitive with the NHL series and FIFA over the past 5 years on the consoles. In fact, FIFA's competitor, PES's Director said PES has to turn up the heat to become more competitive because FIFA has done that very thing.

We are both right, just coming at different directions.

I can't dismiss what Madden and Live have produced , just like you can't dismiss what NHL and FIFA have accomplished.

# 210 Only1LT @ 12/06/10 10:31 AM

I see what TLC is saying, and I agree. There ARE people on here that think that if Madden had comp, that it would magically be better, by, I don't know... osmosis or something.

Whether you believe that EA/Tiburon sits on their laurels or not, when there is no comp, the fact remains, that regardless of whether there is comp or not, Madden does NOT HAVE to improve. Even if you believe that competition will "force" Madden to put more effort into their game, that means nothing. So what if they do put more effort into the game? Who is to say that that "effort" will yield anything remotely better? You might give them an 'E' for effort, but they could still make an 'F' of a game.

If you can't make a good game, you can't make a good game. I could play pick up games with Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Melo, and any other star you want to name. Doesn't mean I'll ever be on their level (except in my mind lol).

Now before a mod comes to say stop bashing the devs, I'm not. I'm speaking hypothetically. And hypothetically speaking, if you are incapable of making a good game, no amount of comp (unless you steal their work or something lol) will change that.

That's all TLC is saying, and he is absolutely right. Theoretically speaking that is lol.

So all those that think that comp HAS to make Madden better, that is just pie in the sky capitalism talking, but it isn't based on anything other than that.

# 211 roadman @ 12/06/10 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Only1LT


	I see what TLC is saying, and I agree. There ARE people on here that think that if Madden had comp, that it would magically be better, by, I don't know... osmosis or something. Whether you believe that EA/Tiburon sits on their laurels or not, when there is no comp, the fact remains, that regardless of whether there is comp or not, Madden does NOT HAVE to improve. Even if you believe that competition will "force" Madden to put more effort into their game, that means nothing. So what if they do put more effort into the game? Who is to say that that "effort" will yield anything remotely better? You might give them an 'E' for effort, but they could still make an 'F' of a game. If you can't make a good game, you can't make a good game. I could play pick up games with Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Melo, and any other star you want to name. Doesn't mean I'll ever be on their level (except in my mind lol). Now before a mod comes to say stop bashing the devs, I'm not. I'm speaking hypothetically. And hypothetically speaking, if you are incapable of making a good game, no amount of comp (unless you steal their work or something lol) will change that. That's all TLC is saying, and he is absolutely right. Theoretically speaking that is lol. So all those that think that comp HAS to make Madden better, that is just pie in the sky capitalism talking, but it isn't based on anything other than that.

Wow, osmosis or were you joking?

I don't agree with your making a bad game they will continue to make a bad game analogy, either. Off the bat, I don't know if Madden will improve (that's subjective to everyone) with competition or not.

However, you can't dismiss it based on past history of some EA sports games.(not all obviously)

I don't care if Triple Play was on LG or LLG, they still took that arcade game and turned into a very competitive MVP game. FIFA and NHL have improved dramatically with competition.

I'm not in the camp that feels EA will put more effort into making a better game, either, but I'm not dismissing any or all possibilities.

I'm a person that goes by track history, good and bad. In this case, it's possible both ways.

That's all that Roadman is saying, theoretically speaking.

# 212 Only1LT @ 12/06/10 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	Wow, osmosis or were you joking? I don't agree with your making a bad game they will continue to make a bad game analogy, either. Off the bat, I don't know if Madden will improve (that's subjective to everyone) with competition or not. However, you can't dismiss it based on past history of some EA sports games.(not all obviously) I don't care if Triple Play was on LG or LLG, they still took that arcade game and turned into a very competitive MVP game. FIFA and NHL have improved dramatically with competition. I'm not in the camp that feels EA will put more effort into making a better game, either, but I'm not dismissing any or all possibilities. I'm a person that goes by track history, good and bad. In this case, it's possible both ways. That's all that Roadman is saying, theoretically speaking.

Yes osmosis was a joke. Sarcasm would be a more apt description though lol.

You are missing the point. All TLC, and I are saying, is that competition DOES NOT GUARANTEE a better Madden. That's it. And there are people who post on here who think that if they had comp that Madden would be better GUARANTEED. That is just wrong.

You can bring up track record, or the past all you want, that proves nothing. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

I don't want to argue, because there is no reason to. This should be obvious. Competition does not guarantee a better game. Period. The people who think it does are wrong. If you aren't one of those people, then you are ahead of the curve. If you are one of those people... stop thinking that way lol.

That's all.

# 213 bearschicago @ 12/06/10 11:42 AM

^ Agree that competition doesn't equal a better game. However if Madden did not buy the NFL license and allowed ESPN NFL 2K series to continue, at least this gave consumers options. In the end, isn't that what we all want? To make the customers happy?

So if Madden continues to not improve while 2K is constantly the better game, eventually more will buy 2K not EA. IMO this will force EA to make a better game. Or continue to sell less with each new title.

# 214 roadman @ 12/06/10 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Only1LT


	Yes osmosis was a joke. Sarcasm would be a more apt description though lol. You are missing the point. All TLC, and I are saying, is that competition DOES NOT GUARANTEE a better Madden. That's it. And there are people who post on here who think that if they had comp that Madden would be better GUARANTEED. That is just wrong. You can bring up track record, or the past all you want, that proves nothing. Past performance is not indicative of future results. I don't want to argue, because there is no reason to. This should be obvious. Competition does not guarantee a better game. Period. The people who think it does are wrong. If you aren't one of those people, then you are ahead of the curve. If you are one of those people... stop thinking that way lol. That's all.

Where is the word guarantee coming into play?

I go back to a few post by me. I would think optimism is a better word then guarantee.

I haven't seen anyone state that bringing in competition guarantees anything.

I just don't think it's right to curb people's enthusiasm or optimism that there could be competition down the road. I don't think it's right to tell people they are wrong in their thinking, either. If that starts happening, people will be afraid to post their opinions, which is all it is.

I see people saying on here, competition will make the game better, but I don't think those people are guaranteeing anything. Anything can happen.

Optimism/enthusiasm is different than guaranteeing.

You know I'm a stats person. If Prince Fielder avg's 50 hr's per yr during the last 5 yrs, it would be well within my bounds to be optimistic that Fielder will hit near 50 hr's the next season. I'm not guaranteeing it, he could tank it and hit 35 the next year.

Good post, bearschicago, I agre.

# 215 jbrew2411 @ 12/06/10 12:00 PM

No one can say they know Madden would be better with competition. On the other hand we all know competition pushes for the best out of people. I coach high school kids. If I walk up to my QB and tell him not to worry he will be the starter next year no matter what he does then I can't think he is going to work hard during the spring and summer to improve. Why would he? The thing is when there is another company making a game that they have to compete for sales then they are forced to put out the best product they can or risk lossing sales/money.
It's easy to see that sales are down for Madden 11 due to it being a repackage of Madden 10. I know I didn't buy Madden 11 for that reason. Only the second time I didn't buy a Madden since 95 (08 was the other time). Gamers have become smarter. We demand better to justify the price tag. When they make little change then why buy a game. Updated roster is not worth the money. I will wait and see if Madden 12 improves the franchise mode. If there is not improvement then I will stay away again.

# 216 dxhowe2k @ 12/06/10 12:49 PM

If I'm not mistaken, the NFL license is up for grabs next year. So, whether 2K Sports, EA, or Natural Motion comes up with a new football game, this may be the best year in SIM Football gaming. Look for Madden to be forced on major changes. The pressure will be on 2KSports because they've sat on the sidelines for years. And Natural Motion's Backbreaker II, who know's what they have up their sleeves with unscripted tackling.

# 217 Only1LT @ 12/06/10 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	Where is the word guarantee coming into play? I go back to a few post by me. I would think optimism is a better word then guarantee. I haven't seen anyone state that bringing in competition guarantees anything. I just don't think it's right to curb people's enthusiasm or optimism that there could be competition down the road. I don't think it's right to tell people they are wrong in their thinking, either. If that starts happening, people will be afraid to post their opinions, which is all it is. I see people saying on here, competition will make the game better, but I don't think those people are guaranteeing anything. Anything can happen. Optimism/enthusiasm is different than guaranteeing. You know I'm a stats person. If Prince Fielder avg's 50 hr's per yr during the last 5 yrs, it would be well within my bounds to be optimistic that Fielder will hit near 50 hr's the next season. I'm not guaranteeing it, he could tank it and hit 35 the next year. Good post, bearschicago, I agre.

Roadman. You never said guarantee. My point was never that you did. My one, and only point was, that there are people, not necessarily you, that think that competition guarantees that Madden will be better.

It is those people that TLC was addressing when he made his comment, and that was the point he was making as well. To try and retort that, which you did, by bringing up other games and trying to show him he was wrong for thinking that way, either means that you do think comp guarantees a better Madden, or that you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I tend to think it is the latter. That was the only reason for my post. To try to better explain what his point was, which was unequivocally true, and quite innocuous, and to make you see that you shouldn't be arguing his point, because again, unequivocally true.

To sum up, competition does not guarantee a better game. That's it. It doesn't require anymore exposition than that. It was just a reminder to those that think it does. Doesn't mean, that I mean, you said that it does. Doesn't mean that I don't want comp. Doesn't mean I'm trying to crush anyone's dream of having comp. The statement that comp guarantees nothing, has no hidden meaning. There doesn't need to be a lengthy discussion about it. It is incontrovertibly true and was the only point that tlc was trying to make, to those that think otherwise.

Don't take this post for anything that it is not. It isn't written to try and belittle you or your points, or to be rude in anyway. I am just trying to say that this isn't something that you and tlc, or I for that matter, should be arguing about, because it is really a misunderstanding, and not a difference of opinion, which it seems that you think it is.

# 218 Only1LT @ 12/06/10 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearschicago


	^ Agree that competition doesn't equal a better game. However if Madden did not buy the NFL license and allowed ESPN NFL 2K series to continue, at least this gave consumers options. In the end, isn't that what we all want? To make the customers happy? So if Madden continues to not improve while 2K is constantly the better game, eventually more will buy 2K not EA. IMO this will force EA to make a better game. Or continue to sell less with each new title.

Absolutely, 100% true, but you are attempting to create an argument or discussion, where there really is none, which is what I have been trying to convey.

Comp does not guarantee a better game. You agree with that. There are those that don't. And it is to those that tlc's and my post were aimed at. If you don't fall in that category, then it should really be end of discussion.

There are obviously other benefits of comp, like having choice, and I was never, and would never, dispute that.

# 219 roadman @ 12/06/10 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Only1LT


	Roadman. You never said guarantee. My point was never that you did. My one, and only point was, that there are people, not necessarily you, that think that competition guarantees that Madden will be better. It is those people that TLC was addressing when he made his comment, and that was the point he was making as well. To try and retort that, which you did, by bringing up other games and trying to show him he was wrong for thinking that way, either means that you do think comp guarantees a better Madden, or that you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I tend to think it is the latter. That was the only reason for my post. To try to better explain what his point was, which was unequivocally true, and quite innocuous, and to make you see that you shouldn't be arguing his point, because again, unequivocally true. To sum up, competition does not guarantee a better game. That's it. It doesn't require anymore exposition than that. It was just a reminder to those that think it does. Doesn't mean you said that. Doesn't mean that I don't want comp. Doesn't mean I'm trying to crush anyone's dream of having comp. The statement that comp guarantees nothing, has no hidden meaning. There doesn't need to be a lengthy discussion about it. It is incontrovertibly true and the only point that tlc was trying to make, to those that think otherwise. Don't take this post for anything that it is not. It isn't written to try and belittle you or your points, or to be rude in anyway. I am just trying to say that this isn't something that you and tlc, or I for that matter, should be arguing about, because it is really a misunderstanding, and not a difference of opinion, which it seems that you think it is.

I got it from the beginning.

I was only trying to show the other POV, not prove anyone wrong. If you think that on a message board of communication, I can't help in that area.

My bottom line is that I haven't seen anyone at OS post the word guarantee that Madden would be better with competition. I don't know where that word came form. Guarantee is too strong of a word. I'm speaking for other posters, not myself, when I feel that they feel there is optimism/enthusiasm for competition.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone, either.

This will be my last post on this topic. The topic doesn't appear to be on the same page for some people that are responding. I'll let a sleeping dog lie.

Edit- Lkg over the old post from last night and this morning, I know see where the word guarantee came from. I like TLC's, not a given terminology better.

As I stated before, not sure if posters that feel the Madden would be better with competition feel like it's a given. I would hope posters would feel optimistic about competition, and not think it's a given. I don't know and neither does anyone else, know, how people feel writing on a message board.

# 220 Only1LT @ 12/06/10 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	I got it from the beginning. I was only trying to show the other POV, not prove anyone wrong. If you think that on a message board of communication, I can't help in that area. My bottom line is that I haven't seen anyone at OS post the word guarantee that Madden would be better with competition. I don't know where that word came form. Guarantee is too strong of a word. I'm speaking for other posters, not myself, when I feel that they feel there is optimism/enthusiasm for competition. I'm not trying to belittle anyone, either. This will be my last post on this topic. The topic doesn't appear to be on the same page for some people that are responding. I'll let a sleeping dog lie.

I can't say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I have seen people use the word guarantee either. That is beside the point though.

It is beside the point, because I HAVE seen, people say in answer to the question of "what would make Madden better", and them answer competition. I HAVE seen people say that lack of competition is THE biggest reason why they think Madden is not a good game. I HAVE seen people say that the only way to have a good Madden, is to bring back competition. How else can you take those statements, other than to mean that they think that if there was competition, that Madden would magically be better? They don't have to specifically use the word guarantee. Their position could not be clearer, even if they did.

And there is nothing wrong with optimism, but there is also nothing wrong with cautioning against, or tempering enthusiasm, to a realistic level. And if anyone's optimism includes thinking that all Madden needs is comp, then yes, that is an unrealistic expectation. Competition MAY help, but it very well MAY NOT. Not saying anything more than that.

It's fine to give the other POV, but on this one single statement, "competition does not guarantee a better Madden", there is no other POV. That is a statement of fact and should be treated as such. Facts don't have POVs. Opinions do. If you think that there is another POV to that statement, then that adds more credence to my belief that this is a misunderstanding.

But it should not be an argument.

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