Werewolf XLV - ROME! (Game over, post 3425)

[st.cronin]

Starting the game thread a day early; the next post will be the final draft of the rules, following that will be a list of the public roles. After that, I will consult random.org for the secret roles, and send out pms.

We begin on Day I. The deadline is Monday, 9pm Eastern Time.

Day II begins: http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1437793&postcount=261

day II ends/day III begins:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1438677&postcount=501

day III ends/day IV begins

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1440019&postcount=1052

day IV ends/day V begins
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1441150&postcount=1467

day V ends/day VI begins
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1442374&postcount=1966

day VI ends/day VII begins
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1443331&postcount=2324

day VII ends/day VIII begins
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1444382&postcount=2606

day VIII ends/day IX begins
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1445258&postcount=2864

day IX ends/day X begins
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1446209&postcount=3084

day X ends/day XI begins

day XI ends/day XII begins

in case at some point my pm box gets full email st.cronin at gmail. please put werewolf in the subject.

[st.cronin]

RULES

2 Consuls

There will be two Consuls, a public role. Consuls serve two day cycles. On their second day cycle, the Senate will elect two new Consuls. The two players with the most votes will be chosen. Consuls have the following abilities: Each day, they may have one Senator arrested for treason. They may not arrest a Consul or Tribune.



1 Tribune of the Plebs

There will be one Tribune of the Plebs, a public role. The Tribune has the authority to veto one vote per day. If he vetos a lynch vote, nobody gets lynched, and both players get freed. If he vetos a consul vote, that post goes empty. In the case that the tribune post becomes empty, the plebs will elect a new tribune. (That is, one will be selected by random.org).



2 lawyers

There will be two additional public roles, the Best Lawyer in Rome, and the Second Best Lawyer in Rome. The lawyers may be hired by any player. When you have hired a lawyer, he may be used in the following ways:



- to defend yourself from an accusation of treason (this will be more effective if the player is, in fact, innocent)

- to represent you in a lawsuit (more on this later)

- you may appoint him as the Senate's lawyer, and prosecute a charge of treason (this will be more effective if the player is, in fact, guilty)



When a player who has hired a lawyer dies, that lawyer becomes richer. Lawyers have some other abilities which are a secret.

THE PUBLIC ROLES LISTED ABOVE MAY BE EITHER REPUBLICANS OR TARQUINISTS TO BEGIN THE GAME



Lawsuits

Each day, you may name a player you feel has wronged you in a lawsuit. (It is not necessary for this lawsuit to be based on anything - all that is required is that you desire to acquire some of that player's wealth.) The following day, this lawsuit will be decided. If you successfully sue somebody, your financial situation will be improved (and your target will find himself poorer). If you sue somebody and lose, there may be negative consequences. There is also a small chance that evidence of treason may come out.



Wealth

No two players are equal in wealth, but which is the wealthiest man in Rome is not known by anybody precisely. Wealth comes into play in the following way: When services are for sale, players will submit secret bids to the gm in the following form: "I wish to purchase service z." The wealthiest player to bid for a particular service, wins the bid. This is different than the way money has been handled in other games. An example of how this works is:

On Day 1, Prostitutia Sexia is offering her services in the Forum.
Player A pms me "I wish to buy Prostitutia Sexia's services"
Player B pms me "I wish to buy Prostitutia Sexia's services"

As GM, I know that Player A is richer than Player B - the players themselves may not know that, they will only know into which level the players fall. So the result of this would be that on Day 2, Player A would have Prostitutia Sexia's services.



What Happens to a Player When Arrested

Each Senator is allowed to vote to convict ONE player each day. The player must get a majority of votes by the Senate to be convicted. When convicted, that player will be tossed off the Tarpian Rock. Any other players in jail will be released, unless a consul issues a new arrest warrant for him. So, for example:



Day 1

Consuls arrest player A and player B

Day 2

Senate votes - player A gets 14 votes, player B 11 votes. Player A then gets thrown off the rock, and player B gets freed. The consuls will then issue two more arrest warrants. If player B is arrested again, he will not go free. Since a majority vote is required, it is possible for both players to go free. It is not possible for more than two players to be on trial at the same time.

[st.cronin]

The first Consuls of Rome are:

Alanus Teeus
Westvus Fanus
(their term will end upon completion of day 2)

The Tribune of the Plebs is:

Saldanus Lathumus (this is a lifetime appointment)

The best lawyer in Rome is:

Swaggus Swaggus

And the second best lawyer in Rome is:

Ardentus Enthusiastus

The wealthiest men in Rome are:

Bulletus Spongeus
Dodgus Erchickus
Imus Thecrewus

The following Senators are known to be extremely wealthy:
Coffeus Yakus Warlordus
Ironsus Headus
Lonestarus Girlus
Marcus Vaughnus
Schmidtyus Schmidtyus

The following Senators are known to be moderately wealthy:

Abeus Anxietus
Antus Meisterus
Autumnus Leavus
Barkeepus Valerius Fortynineus
Pathus Twelveus
Peregrinus Barbarus
Snus Dvlus
Westvus Fanus

The following (remaining) Senators are of ordinary wealth for the Senatorial class:
Alanus Teeus
Ardentus Enthusiastus
Chiefus Rumus
Daddyus Torgous
Grammus Atticus
Hoopus Guyus
Kayus Whitus
Narcizus Lispus
Neonus Chaosus
Saldanus Lathumus
Swaggus Swaggus
Tyrus Ithus

[st.cronin]

Persons selling their services in the Forum

Gallus Clarus, ex-legionnaire
Titus Ludius, ex-legionnaire
Durus Pimpus, dealer in sexual slaves
Animus Sentus, person rumored to be affiliated with the Priesthood
Furius Lucius, former warlord of Gaul, enslaved and now freed
Lexus Postus, owner of many horses
Blakus Fortunatus, owner of many horses

and of course,
Swaggus Swaggus
Ardentus Enthusiastus

[st.cronin]

Primer

On Day I there is no vote. The Consuls have the authority to issue one arrest warrant each. They will do this by pm to me. They do not HAVE to issue an arrest warrant, and there will be no record of these arrest warrants.

Players may bid for the services. This is also done by pm to me, in the form of "I wish to purchase the services offered by xxxxx." If you win this bid, you will have the use of those services on DAY II.

Players may also sue another player. This is done publically in the following format:

SAINTUS CRONINUS SUES CARTUS MANUS

Please use bold and caps for this. Lawsuits will be settled on Day II, and from here out will be settled the day after they are announced.

[st.cronin]

Roles are now being rolled, and will be sent out via pm shortly.

[DaddyTorgo]

got some kind of PM. Checking in

[st.cronin]

I believe all roles are sent. If you did not get a pm, please send me one.

[DaddyTorgo]

well...i'm nice and ordinary

[bulletsponge]

Wolfus Maximus checking in

[Poli]

I'm the 2nd best lawyer? Please. Who can argue like I can? Note, I didn't say effectively. :)

[hoopsguy]

Garden variety senator here, looking to safeguard Rome in the coming days. I am not one blessed with a particularly famous family and I have not yet crafted a reputation for better or worse. But I am loyal to the idea that is Rome and hope that we can continue to build a better government in the coming days.

[Abe Sargent]

Hey all!

[WVUFAN]

First Consol checking in?

[Schmidty]

I am a person of boringatudeness. Hi.

[Chief Rum]

I bleed for Rome. But my blood is a rather ordinary, dull red, I am afraid.

[WVUFAN]

Question:

Can Consuls be re-elected to their posts, do are they disallowed becoming Consols again?

[st.cronin]

Question:

Can Consuls be re-elected to their posts, do are they disallowed becoming Consols again?

They can be re-elected, but not to consecutive terms.

[st.cronin]

dola, one other clarification: If you secure the services of somebody, those services are yours to use as you please, INCLUDING donating them to somebody else.

[Abe Sargent]

st. cronin, can you edit your money post to include everyone so I don;t have to keep clickign back to the sing up thread to see who is in the game?

[Peregrine]

Are there more rules that I'm missing? This isn't making much sense to me, like what is our ultimate goal? Do we know that there are people who are in fact, treasonous? Are there different political factions? When does the game end?

[Lorena]

I have received my PM

[Lorena]

dola,

and for spreadsheet purposes, are we voting people off by screename or name given to us?

[Barkeep49]

As this glorious nation embarks on its bold new experiment without a dictator I welcome the new found role of the Senate in advising the people of Rome in the proper way of things.

[KWhit]

Ordinary Senator here, loyal to the Republic of Rome.

[Swaggs]

I'm here and ready to serve... except I have family in for the holiday and won't be around much until tomorrow. :)

[Coffee Warlord]

I own all the yaks in the Republic. Ave Romanus!

[Autumn]

I, Autumnus Leavus have been fortunate to have become a man of some wealth in this great republic. The gods and the wise administration of the Senate have made it possible. I hope my humble service can help guide the Republic on its upward path.

[Ironhead]

Loyal Senator to the Roman Republic checking in.

[DaddyTorgo]

the idea would be to smoke out the treasonous tarquinians and toss them from the rock (which incidentally isn't ALL that impressive...i suppose a fall would still kill you, but it's nothing awe inspiring).

[Neon_Chaos]

A simple true Roman, of modest beginnings, reporting. Might we all remember that we serve not ourselves, but the people. Let us make sure that Rome never falls under any oppressor again.

Regnat Populus

[Alan T]

Well I'm checking in. I guess I need some help from others on a few points here...

First of all, I have my other two daughters this weekend (until Wednesday morning), so get the juggle 3 daughters, hospital stuff and work stuff for a few days so bear with me.

Second, I'm interested in suggestions on who might be treasonous among us. As with normal day one votes, I have very little clue on people's allegiances so am interested in knowing what others feel about those we interact with. I won't commit myself to choosing to arrest someone based on what people say , but any input would be helpful for me.

Third, There is much talk about money so far, people who are wealthy, purchasing services from others etc.. I don't have any information about money at all in my PM though. All I am told is that I am loyal to the republic. So am I to assume that all we know about our own wealth is whats listed in the groupings above?

If so then I guess I'm not going to have much remarkable to give for the republic here beyond my first two days. I'll try to do my best to further our cause before I leave my post, but with the complete lack of information to start with I am afraid of pointing a finger at an innocent man. I'm heading to the hospital now for a while, but will check back at some point later tonight.

[Alan T]

Also I am curious to what reasons many of us would have to sue another for. I don't have any information that would indicate personal conflicts with others on an individual level. As far as I am aware, its the senate looking to keep ourselves free from our former opressors. If we end up finding someone not loyal to the republic's cause we simply would throw them off the rock, not bring up an individual lawsuit.

So does anyone have any thoughts on what reasons or goals would be behind personal lawsuits?

[Peregrine]

Alan, money is another thing that needs explanation. What good are the services that the various vendors provide? I guess st. cronin will explain that in time. Apparently lawsuits are just to make yourself richer, but again, with no knowledge of what money is good for, it's hard to see why we'd bother. As for Tarquinians as DaddyTorgo mentioned, I have no idea who they are or why we want to kill them.

[Alan T]

Lawsuits

Each day, you may name a player you feel has wronged you in a lawsuit. (It is not necessary for this lawsuit to be based on anything - all that is required is that you desire to acquire some of that player's wealth.) The following day, this lawsuit will be decided. If you successfully sue somebody, your financial situation will be improved (and your target will find himself poorer). If you sue somebody and lose, there may be negative consequences. There is also a small chance that evidence of treason may come out.

Ok, I went back and found the info on the lawsuit stuff. Missed this in my hasty reading..

So with what it says here, there being a small chance of some information on treason coming out, is there any good group reason to not have as many lawsuits as possible? Sure, you risk an individual risk of some negative consequence to your person, but its for the betterment of the republic in the long haul I would think...

Any thoughts on us all working to try to put forth as many personal lawsuits as we can in hopes we might have indications of treason pop from some (or any) of them?

[Alan T]

Alan, money is another thing that needs explanation. What good are the services that the various vendors provide? I guess st. cronin will explain that in time. Apparently lawsuits are just to make yourself richer, but again, with no knowledge of what money is good for, it's hard to see why we'd bother. As for Tarquinians as DaddyTorgo mentioned, I have no idea who they are or why we want to kill them.

The Tarquinians are our former opressors who we have chased out to form our new Republic. Evidentally there is some talk that members of our senate might be sympathetic to the Tarquinian cause and wish to bring them back in once more to crush our republic. I believe that is the goal of our actions here in the long run.. to identify who those traitors to the republic are and throw them off of the rock.

Persons selling their services in the Forum

Gallus Clarus, ex-legionnaire
Titus Ludius, ex-legionnaire
Durus Pimpus, dealer in sexual slaves
Animus Sentus, person rumored to be affiliated with the Priesthood
Furius Lucius, former warlord of Gaul, enslaved and now freed
Lexus Postus, owner of many horses
Blakus Fortunatus, owner of many horses

and of course,
Swaggus Swaggus
Ardentus Enthusiastus


As for what the various people above can do for us, I bet we could try to make educated guesses... ex-legionnaires might be some form of personal bodyguard that we can buy for the night. What might some of the other roles do for us?

Priests
Sex slaves
Formerly enslaved but freed warlord
Horse owners?

[Alan T]

Ok, I need to run. I'll check back tonight. One last question I guess for cronin here...

If you purchase the service of one of those roles, does it affect your overall wealth? Ie: you now are that much less wealthy due to spending some of your wealth for that service? Or for game purposes does your place in wealth status only get effected through lawsuits?

[Antmeister]

Antus Meisterus is checking in.

[Peregrine]

Well since there are only two lawyers, we can only have two lawsuits a day, yes? With so many people it will take a while, but we could just keep suing everyone until treason is revealed. We know the lawyers are safe, since they're not Senators, right? They can't be traitors?

[Ironhead]

We know the lawyers are safe, since they're not Senators, right? They can't be traitors?

THE PUBLIC ROLES LISTED ABOVE MAY BE EITHER REPUBLICANS OR TARQUINISTS TO BEGIN THE GAME

Looks like any of the public roles (includes lawyers) could be working for the Tarquinists.

[Antmeister]

Looks like any of the public roles (includes lawyers) could be working for the Tarquinists.


Damn...so the tribune, consuls, lawyers can also be Tarquinists. This is definitely going to be a pain to weed through.

[hoopsguy]

I asked about the lawsuit prior to the start of the game. What I got out of the answer was that it was a mechanism to improve your value while diminishing someone else in the process. So a way to move up the economic food chain, for better or for worse.

I know this is convenient for me to suggest as someone who is not born into great wealth, but the people who can buy services in theory have the most to give the people and conversely present a larger risk if they are Tarquinists. So I believe optimal play is to begin with lawsuits against those near the top in an effort to find a traitor. Even if the suit is unsuccessful it gives a small positive check mark if it does not turn up treasonous behavior.

That is about as far as I've gotten on strategy at this point in the game.

[Peregrine]

It seems to me that the easiest way for an assured win is to simply check everyone with lawsuits repeatedly until the traitors are revealed. Assuming they cannot spread their wicked beliefs to others, and if the consuls do not hang anyone, we can be assured to find all the guilty parties with no unnecessary loss of life.

[Coffee Warlord]

With no night action, I seriously wonder how the Tarquinists are gonna trim the herd. Unless we just randomly die during the course of the day.

[Coffee Warlord]

It seems to me that the easiest way for an assured win is to simply check everyone with lawsuits repeatedly until the traitors are revealed. Assuming they cannot spread their wicked beliefs to others, and if the consuls do not hang anyone, we can be assured to find all the guilty parties with no unnecessary loss of life.

I don't think we have that kind of time. As I just posted, I think somehow, we're gonna get offed by bad guys throughout this. There's too many players to just axe one person a day.

[Alan T]

You all are missing the point on the lawsuits. They have nothing to do with the lawyers that can be hired.

To do a lawsuit on someone you simply put in Bold in the thread PlayerA Sues PlayerB.

Players may also sue another player. This is done publically in the following format:

SAINTUS CRONINUS SUES CARTUS MANUS

Please use bold and caps for this. Lawsuits will be settled on Day II, and from here out will be settled the day after they are announced.

I don't see anything in the rules that indicated that there can't be 14 lawsuits a day. I also don't see anything that indicates one player can't sue multiple people. The only thing I see is that it indicates there might be some penalty for losing a lawsuit (my guess is losing some wealth perhaps?).

This goes back to my original point that I haven't seen many comment on other than Hoopsguy alluding to my idea.. Whats do we lose from having as many lawsuits brought forth as possible? I think some of you are assuming the lawsuits will definitly show some tendancy for treason if its there, but the rules state there is a chance of that happening. My thoughts on that wording means it might or might not show some signs of treason if its there (perhaps decided by random.org) So it could take people being sued a few times to work out the odds.

I'll go a step further and state, I have no objection if people want to sue me in an attempt to try to find some treasonous tendancies from me. (As well as try to get some of my little wealth that I may have). Just keep in mind if you choose to do so, you have no right to complain if others do it to you.

I'm thinking for day 1, I'll be looking at whom I want to place in arrest (so far no one has given me any thoughts on people to suggest to look at), as well as I'll be considering one or possibly even multiple people I wish to sue as well.

[SnDvls]

checking in on the Holiday.

[DaddyTorgo]

alan...i like your thinking on the lawsuits.

I am also not possessed of great wealth, nor any special standing within the community at this point.

Lawsuits give us a small positive checkmark, yes? Nothing definitive, but how about if we set a deadline day (3 or something) where we say that no one should be voted for consul (or put forth as a candidate) until they have undergone an arbitrary # of lawsuits? does that make sense? And then just everyone blast each other with lawsuits...or people can state their consular ambitions several days ahead of time and put themselves up to be blasted by multiple lawsuits in advance?

[hoopsguy]

Also, an attorney can be hired for a defense. If we are serious about trying to obtain information about treason (and concede that this is far from a lock) and there are only two attorneys, then I would submit it is in the best interest of the people that the attorney are used to press lawsuits and not defend.

If either of the attorneys have additional insight into the process, or can correct a misconception, please feel free to do so as needed.

[DaddyTorgo]

Also, an attorney can be hired for a defense. If we are serious about trying to obtain information about treason (and concede that this is far from a lock) and there are only two attorneys, then I would submit it is in the best interest of the people that the attorney are used to press lawsuits and not defend.

If either of the attorneys have additional insight into the process, or can correct a misconception, please feel free to do so as needed.

if that's true, I agree with you as well hoops.

[Barkeep49]

I would think that people should either sue someone on their own level or one up? What do people think about that?

[st.cronin]

Are there more rules that I'm missing? This isn't making much sense to me, like what is our ultimate goal? Do we know that there are people who are in fact, treasonous? Are there different political factions? When does the game end?

All this will become clear in time.

st. cronin, can you edit your money post to include everyone so I don;t have to keep clickign back to the sing up thread to see who is in the game?

Will do.

Well since there are only two lawyers, we can only have two lawsuits a day, yes? With so many people it will take a while, but we could just keep suing everyone until treason is revealed. We know the lawyers are safe, since they're not Senators, right? They can't be traitors?

You do not need a lawyer to press a suit.

[Peregrine]

If we're going to try to all file a lawsuit each day, we can simply organize them so that we suffer the least loss from losing a lawsuit. I don't know how many days it will take to expose all the traitors through lawsuits, but with 14 or 15 a day it can't take too long.

[Coffee Warlord]

Was the question about your money going down just from hiring services fielded?

[st.cronin]

Was the question about your money going down just from hiring services fielded?

Financial status will not change from hiring services (or not hiring services).

[st.cronin]

One more game note: I will try to keep my inbox open, but with so many players possibly sending pms, it may fill up. In the case that happens, you should send me an email at my gmail address. The address is my user name here, @gmail.com. Try to put "werewolf" in the subject.

[st.cronin]

the idea would be to smoke out the treasonous tarquinians and toss them from the rock (which incidentally isn't ALL that impressive...i suppose a fall would still kill you, but it's nothing awe inspiring).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpeian_Rock

[Alan T]

I would think that people should either sue someone on their own level or one up? What do people think about that?

Why?

[st.cronin]

One other question I don't think I answered: There is no limits on the number of lawsuits an individual can pursue, but there are practical limits on how many lawsuits the courts can handle. Lawsuits beyond this limit will be held off to the next day, unless withdrawn (a player can withdraw a suit any time before it goes to the courts).

[Alan T]

If we're going to try to all file a lawsuit each day, we can simply organize them so that we suffer the least loss from losing a lawsuit. I don't know how many days it will take to expose all the traitors through lawsuits, but with 14 or 15 a day it can't take too long.

Where does the loss come in? I'm assuming one person's loss is another person's gain. And unless you know something that I do not, we don't know in which direction that helps or hurts us in each individual case.

The only thing I think would be preferred is for us to try to involve as many different people in the lawsuits as I am guessing it has a higher chance of telling us something, than just ganging up on the wealthiest or certain people.

[st.cronin]

By the way, this is far and away the most complicated game I've tried to run, so do bear with me. Ambiguities and mistakes are inevitable, but I will do my best.

[Autumn]

The lawsuit idea makes sense to me. My only addition is to say that my interpretation is that each of us can only press one lawsuit per day, so we would need everyone to take part.

Since we're not quite sure yet what bonus money might bring (other than better access to services) and don't want to be putting money in the hands of possible traitors, perhaps we can match up the lawsuits, so that A sues B and B sues A. If the suits are successful, perhaps the change in wealth will balance out. I'm not sure yet how suits are decided though...

[Autumn]

oops, St. Cronin answered that while I was answering - ignore the 1 suit per day item.

[DaddyTorgo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpeian_Rock

I know what it is cronin. Been there, seen that.

[DaddyTorgo]

The lawsuit idea makes sense to me. My only addition is to say that my interpretation is that each of us can only press one lawsuit per day, so we would need everyone to take part.

Since we're not quite sure yet what bonus money might bring (other than better access to services) and don't want to be putting money in the hands of possible traitors, perhaps we can match up the lawsuits, so that A sues B and B sues A. If the suits are successful, perhaps the change in wealth will balance out. I'm not sure yet how suits are decided though...

this makes a lot of sense. As long as it's not a cover for wolves to only fake-sue each other. I think we'd need...multiple people to agree to it all. Which could make it complicated...

[Tyrith]

I'm a vanilla. Hurray vanilla!

[Alan T]

this makes a lot of sense. As long as it's not a cover for wolves to only fake-sue each other. I think we'd need...multiple people to agree to it all. Which could make it complicated...

I don't need people to agree with my idea to do it at all. I plan on suing people, the only question right now is who and how many. The only down side is the possible negative consequences? Well guess my role is the perfect one for that, I have little money no special role other than my public position which will be gone after day 2 anyways. So really I'm in a position of little risk, big reward here and plan on using that.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't need people to agree with my idea to do it at all. I plan on suing people, the only question right now is who and how many. The only down side is the possible negative consequences? Well guess my role is the perfect one for that, I have little money no special role other than my public position which will be gone after day 2 anyways. So really I'm in a position of little risk, big reward here and plan on using that.

oh I know you don't need people to agree. but it'd make it more effective.

[LoneStarGirl]

I am very vanilla. This game looks confusing. I hope Alant and Anxiety stop asking questions that just confuse me more ;)

[Autumn]

this makes a lot of sense. As long as it's not a cover for wolves to only fake-sue each other. I think we'd need...multiple people to agree to it all. Which could make it complicated...

That's a good point. That would be a danger in tit-for-tat suing, so it's probably best to make the matchups random.

[Autumn]

Perhaps in our new Republic we should consider making the financial situations of our senators equal. Those who gain the most money would have the exclusive opportunity to protect themselves, prosecute others and ... race horses? This might be dangerous if those who do not wish the best for the Republic amassed the most wealth. If we used lawsuits to redistribute the wealth evenly, all citizens of our great Republic might be safest.

[hoopsguy]

Autumn, how would you propose that we equal out the financial situations?

[Barkeep49]

Perhaps in our new Republic we should consider making the financial situations of our senators equal. Those who gain the most money would have the exclusive opportunity to protect themselves, prosecute others and ... race horses? This might be dangerous if those who do not wish the best for the Republic amassed the most wealth. If we used lawsuits to redistribute the wealth evenly, all citizens of our great Republic might be safest.
I see no reason to believe we should act against the Gods. The Gods have favored some of us and may in the future favor others. However, this idea that we should all be equal goes against their plan.

[Autumn]

I don't know if it would work, but we could attempt to have lower income people sue higher income until everybody ended up listed in the same category. Presumably at that point the result of any bid for services would be rather random.

[hoopsguy]

I guess I don't know how feasible it is for us to have everyone on a level playing field financially. There is definitely an advantage to having someone in a higher financial stratum if they are actively using their wealth to build Rome and remove our enemies. I'm not sure, even as I sit at the bottom of the food chain economically, that I want to mitigate that advantage. I would just encourage us to more heavily scrutinize these people in the early part of the game to root out a wealthy traitor or work towards clearing a potential benefactor.

[path12]

Checking in but I haven't read anything yet and probably won't get a chance tonight. But the good news is that I finally have a working computer at home again! Yay!

[DaddyTorgo]

quiet startup to this game so far. We need to make sure that we get something done tomorrow, whatever it is.

Lately in big complicated games the village seems paralyzed on D1, and that will do us no good. So let's make sure that we have something going on tomorrow, at least in terms of formulating a plan early. I ought to be around for discussion/putting whatever that plan is in motion if it's suing people or whatever.

[Schmidty]

By the way, this is far and away the most complicated game I've tried to run, so do bear with me. Ambiguities and mistakes are inevitable, but I will do my best.

THIS DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR MY FEEBLE MIND

[bulletsponge]

Also, an attorney can be hired for a defense. If we are serious about trying to obtain information about treason (and concede that this is far from a lock) and there are only two attorneys, then I would submit it is in the best interest of the people that the attorney are used to press lawsuits and not defend.

If either of the attorneys have additional insight into the process, or can correct a misconception, please feel free to do so as needed.

easy for you to say, your not the one that might loose money you need for cool services

[Ironhead]

Here is a question on something I am not clear on. Say I decide to file suit against Playerus Zeeus because his favorite color is black. Neither of us obtain a lawyer. Does the suit still go through and what decides who wins the suit since it can conceivably be based on nothing?

[bulletsponge]

I am very vanilla. This game looks confusing. I hope Alant and Anxiety stop asking questions that just confuse me more ;)

Hmmmm that little bit of info is interesting. *writes a note*

[st.cronin]

Here is a question on something I am not clear on. Say I decide to file suit against Playerus Zeeus because his favorite color is black. Neither of us obtain a lawyer. Does the suit still go through and what decides who wins the suit since it can conceivably be based on nothing?

The suit will proceed regardless of whether the players have representation.

[Alan T]

easy for you to say, your not the one that might loose money you need for cool services

So you are saying your wealth is worth more than the republic finding a treasonous member?

[Chief Rum]

I don't really have much to add at this point. I just wanted to check back in again after being out all day.

The next couple days will be hit and miss with me, as I will be working both jobs both Monday and Tuesday. So it will be late night posts and maybe early morning posts during that time.

I should be a bit more free after that.

[Poli]

One more game note: I will try to keep my inbox open, but with so many players possibly sending pms, it may fill up. In the case that happens, you should send me an email at my gmail address. The address is my user name here, @gmail.com. Try to put "werewolf" in the subject.
Solid. Hope you like porn. :)

[Grammaticus]

Grammaticus Atticus checking in. Just got back in town, looks like I've got some reading to do.

[KWhit]

I believe the best course of action right now is through bringing lawsuits against each other so that we can try to get more information about each other's allegiances.

Ergo:

KAYUS WHITUS SUES ALANUS TEEUS

[KWhit]

I bring the suit against Alanus Teeus because he holds power over us and if treasonous would be very dangerous. I suggest someone also sue Westvus Fanus.

[Alan T]

I believe the best course of action right now is through bringing lawsuits against each other so that we can try to get more information about each other's allegiances.

Ergo:

KAYUS WHITUS SUES ALANUS TEEUS

I am ok with this, as I have little to hide and you likely won't get any great sum of money from me. In addition to sueing Westvus Fanus, we probably want to look at people who might be future Consul choices. As I my term as Consul is over after tommorrow, we'll want two new people who we feel comfortable with to elect at that point. Considering a possible future backlog in the courts, we might want to prioritize some of those earlier rather than later.

ALANUS TEEUS SUES HOOPUS GUYUS.

He seemed to back my thoughts fairly early which gives me pause for concern. Instead of chasing those fears down rabbit holes for days, it seems to make sense to try to quickly figure out if he is with us or against us as best we can. If he is indeed loyal to the republic, he could be a very influential and vocal Senator pushing the cause for good and not a bad choice for a future Consul. If he has any evidence of traitorous actions, we should throw him off the rock without a second thought.

[bulletsponge]

So you are saying your wealth is worth more than the republic finding a treasonous member?

no, i just dont like frivilous lawsuits that only benifit lawyers and thier greedy ilk

[Alan T]

no, i just dont like frivilous lawsuits that only benifit lawyers and thier greedy ilk

1) Lawyers aren't necessarily a part of the lawsuits

2) I've already shown a way that lawsuits could possibly help us find treasonous individuals in the senate.

[Poli]

2 lawyers

There will be two additional public roles, the Best Lawyer in Rome, and the Second Best Lawyer in Rome. The lawyers may be hired by any player. When you have hired a lawyer, he may be used in the following ways:



- to defend yourself from an accusation of treason (this will be more effective if the player is, in fact, innocent)

- to represent you in a lawsuit (more on this later)

- you may appoint him as the Senate's lawyer, and prosecute a charge of treason (this will be more effective if the player is, in fact, guilty)



When a player who has hired a lawyer dies, that lawyer becomes richer. Lawyers have some other abilities which are a secret.

THE PUBLIC ROLES LISTED ABOVE MAY BE EITHER REPUBLICANS OR TARQUINISTS TO BEGIN THE GAME

Apparently the secret abilities are unknown to the lawyers themselves. All I know is I'm the 2nd best lawyer in town, loyal to the republic, and I must have about 3 wives if I'm not one of the wealthiest people in town.

[Barkeep49]

Do people like the idea of suing others randomly? If so I'm prepared to go to our old friend random.org and roll it up.

[Passacaglia]

Checking in for Marcus Vaughanus. I don't think I'll make many waves, since I'm only filling in for one day, and it's just Day 1.

[Alan T]

Do people like the idea of suing others randomly? If so I'm prepared to go to our old friend random.org and roll it up.

I would hope that even though its day one and nothing is really overly clear to us, that people could at least formulate some strategy or reasoning for why they chose the person they chose to sue. I would like to think that I tried to do the best I could on a day 1 in my own action, and would prefer things to be less random when possible.

[Poli]

If I'm hired to represent someone, does that keep me from suing someone myself?

[st.cronin]

If I'm hired to represent someone, does that keep me from suing someone myself?


No.

[hoopsguy]

I'm fine with the lawsuit - I won't slide any further down the economics scale, so nothing lost on that front. I'm also loyal to Rome and if being sued a few times is the best way to prove this then so be it.

I'll put my lawsuit on a new senator, one who has relatively little reputation amongst our numbers. I was worried earlier that his statements did not demonstrate an understanding of the wealth system in our state - something that might prove true of a Tarq.

HOOPUS GUYUS SUES AUTUMNUS LEAVUS

[DaddyTorgo]

morning. what's up?

[Autumn]

This strategy makes sense to me. However, if not random, I think we need some form of matchmaking in the suits. We don't know yet how the treasonous information may come to light. If the suitor is the only one who will be told this information, then if there are traitors among us they would be sure to sue each other. I'm willing to press a suit on one of the prominent members of our Senate, but it would make best sense to me if we had people other than ourselves choose the suits.

[Poli]

No.
So can I assume if I sue someone I can still be hired as well? :)

[hoopsguy]

Autumn, I don't like random checks because that serves to disguise voting patterns. However, if people want to double-up (or triple-up, if that is perceived as necessary) on people on a given day to validate results then that makes sense to me. An alternative to doubling up on a given day is to check a person on Day 2 who was also reviewed on Day 1.

One area of concern - it does not sound like the court system is going to be able to hear all of our suits. So our best efforts to cross-check each other may be slowed down by the judicial process.

[Autumn]

I'm fine with the lawsuit - I won't slide any further down the economics scale, so nothing lost on that front. I'm also loyal to Rome and if being sued a few times is the best way to prove this then so be it.

I'll put my lawsuit on a new senator, one who has relatively little reputation amongst our numbers. I was worried earlier that his statements did not demonstrate an understanding of the wealth system in our state - something that might prove true of a Tarq.

HOOPUS GUYUS SUES AUTUMNUS LEAVUS

That is fine with me, fellow Senator, especially as it will not cause a concentration of wealth anywhere in this Senate.

I still believe we should agree on a system of deciding suit matchups to avoid anyone playing games.

I will wait to make a suit to see if anyone else agrees with this idea. But certainly, as Alanus Teeus has said, we need to make sure to check out our prominent members, and possible Consuls.

[st.cronin]

So can I assume if I sue someone I can still be hired as well? :)

Correct. This may have been unclear, but you can't represent yourself. Players who do not hire one of the two best lawyers are considered to have hired a generic lawyer.

[Coffee Warlord]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this game. But, the Roman Yak Monopoly's legal department has suggested a course of action.

Coffeus Yakus Warlordus Sues Ironsus Headus

[Barkeep49]

So no random lawsuits. But as people start to sue, which appears to be our D1 substitute for voting, it would be nice if they gave a reason. Just like it's nice when people give a reason for voting.

[Poli]

Can I sue for the title of best lawyer?

[Coffee Warlord]

So no random lawsuits. But as people start to sue, which appears to be our D1 substitute for voting, it would be nice if they gave a reason. Just like it's nice when people give a reason for voting.

From what I understand, the Consuls can arrest someone and we theoretically could still have a lynch attempt today.

And no. I have no reason for my lawsuit aside from the fact that I want to be richer. Completely selfish reasons.

[DaddyTorgo]

blah. remembering my roman name is going to kill my posting frequency. so instead of that

DADDYTORGO SUES WVUFAN

I'm open to whoever suing me. I don't have any great wealth and I'm not a traitor, so I have nothing to lose.

[DaddyTorgo]

oh wow. i missed the flurry of posts there. i'm open to changing my suit

[Alan T]

From what I understand, the Consuls can arrest someone and we theoretically could still have a lynch attempt today.

And no. I have no reason for my lawsuit aside from the fact that I want to be richer. Completely selfish reasons.

My understanding is if someone is arrested today, they will be voted on tommorrow, not today.

[st.cronin]

My understanding is if someone is arrested today, they will be voted on tommorrow, not today.

correct

[Coffee Warlord]

Ah, you're right.

[Autumn]

It seems important that we make sure to investigate our most prominent citizens. One of our consuls, Alanus Teeus is already under suit. We should make sure to also sue Westvus Fanus and our Tribune Saldanus Lathumus. After that it would make sense to me to sue the best lawyers in the Rome, as we don't now whether a traitorous lawyer might be able to bend results in their favor.

It seems we're just moving into choosing on our own. So I will sue Westvus Fanus, to ensure that both of our consuls are properly investigated. I am willing to change my suit if someone has a better idea.

Autumnus Leavus Sues Westvus Fanus

[Passacaglia]

Am I missing something -- how is it determined who wins lawsuits?

[st.cronin]

so far:

KAYUS WHITUS SUES ALANUS TEEUS
ALANUS TEEUS SUES HOOPUS GUYUS
HOOPUS GUYUS SUES AUTUMNUS LEAVUS
Coffeus Yakus Warlordus Sues Ironsus Headus
DADDYus TORGOus SUES WESTVUS FANus
Autumnus Leavus Sues Westvus Fanus

[KWhit]

I welcome anyone to bring suit against me, as I have nothing to hide and would welcome a minor

[Autumn]

Ah, I was confused by DAddyus Torgus' use of these strange Anglo-Saxon names. I see he already sued Westvus FAnus. While we could double up, I would rather cover all citizens of power first.

I will change my suit.

AUTUMNUS LEAVUS SUES SALDANUS LATHUMUS

[st.cronin]

Am I missing something -- how is it determined who wins lawsuits?

You are not missing something.

[st.cronin]

Ah, I was confused by DAddyus Torgus' use of these strange Anglo-Saxon names. I see he already sued Westvus FAnus. While we could double up, I would rather cover all citizens of power first.

I will change my suit.

AUTUMNUS LEAVUS SUES SALDANUS LATHUMUS

Your other suit will still go forward unless you withdraw it.

[Autumn]

I believe that we are in the dark as to how a suit is won or lost. My questions to those who run the judicial system have come back unanswered.

[KWhit]

I welcome anyone to bring suit against me, as I have nothing to hide and would welcome a minor

Premature postulation! That should have said:

I welcome anyone to bring suit against me, as I have nothing to hide and would welcome a minor check mark in my favor (when the suit is decided and inevitably indicates I am not a traitor)*.


I have no idea if that's really how it works or if it might just come back as inconclusive, but since I KNOW I'm not a traitor, I am confident that a lawsuit can only help my stature in this regard.

[Poli]

Ardentus Enthusiastus sues Swaggus Swaggus for the title of best lawyer in Rome.

[Autumn]

Your other suit will still go forward unless you withdraw it.

I suppose I willl attempt bringing both of these citizens into the court then. Until we find out there is some backlash to submitting several suits, we might as well cover the territory.

[KWhit]

Your other suit will still go forward unless you withdraw it.

We can sue multiple people?

[Poli]

I thought kwhit was going for the underage for a second. :)

[Barkeep49]

KWhit welcoming a minor, as the father of your house, is something you could do. I know for one I wouldn't judge you (much) for it.

[Abe Sargent]

I love you all.


Which is, to say, that I;m reading and thinking, but I have nothing major to contribute, so I am staying silent, but I am here and whatnot.

[st.cronin]

We can sue multiple people?

You can sue as many people as you like. There are practical limits on how many suits the courts can handle each day, though.

[Barkeep49]

While I appreciate the checking of the Consuls, the tribune of the people is a lifetime appointment and as such I guess I feel the need to sue Saldanus.

Barkeepus Valarius Fortynineus hereby issues a complaint against Saldanus Lathumus on behalf of the people of Rome.

[Abe Sargent]

blah. remembering my roman name is going to kill my posting frequency. so instead of that

DADDYTORGO SUES WVUFAN

I'm open to whoever suing me. I don't have any great wealth and I'm not a traitor, so I have nothing to lose.

I'll also do the obligatory suing. I'll take this action DT. Noone has sued him yet, it apepars.


Anxietus Abeus sues whatever DT's name is. :)

[KWhit]

KWhit welcoming a minor, as the father of your house, is something you could do. I know for one I wouldn't judge you (much) for it.

Heh. I have no idea what happened there. I was typing along as fast as I could and all of a sudden half-way through my sentence, the thing gets posted!

[KWhit]

I feel that it is my duty as a loyal Roman to continue this. All in the name of the security of Rome, of course.

KAYUS WHITUS SUES WESTVUS FANUS

[KWhit]

KAYUS WHITUS SUES SALDANUS LATHUMUS

[KWhit]

KAYUS WHITUS SUES SWAGGUS SWAGGUS

[st.cronin]

If somebody wants to continue to compile these, I'd appreciate it:

KAYUS WHITUS SUES ALANUS TEEUS
ALANUS TEEUS SUES HOOPUS GUYUS
HOOPUS GUYUS SUES AUTUMNUS LEAVUS
Coffeus Yakus Warlordus Sues Ironsus Headus
DADDYus TORGOus SUES WESTVUS FANus
Autumnus Leavus Sues Westvus Fanus
AUTUMNUS LEAVUS SUES SALDANUS LATHUMUS
Ardentus Enthusiastus sues Swaggus Swaggus
Barkeepus Valerius Fortynineus sues Saldanus Lathamus
ANXIETUS ABEUS SUES DADDYUS TORGOUS
KAYUS WHITUS SUES WESTVUS FANUS
KAYUS WHITUS SUES SALDANUS LATHUMUS
KAYUS WHITUS SUES SWAGGUS SWAGGUS

[KWhit]

KAYUS WHITUS SUES ARDENTUS ENTHUSIASTUS

[Coffee Warlord]

Holy lord.

[KWhit]

I am through submitting lawsuits. I wanted to have one on each of the most powerful men in Rome.

[KWhit]

I hope that doing that might get me some valuable information, but who knows?

[Poli]

Kayus Whitus is a man on a mission. Do you need a good lawyer?

[Swaggs]

Can I sue for the title of best lawyer?

Bring it on! :)

[Grammaticus]

I like the idea of running with law suits, especially at the low end of the money food chain. I will point out, once wealthy Senators start losing money or any of us start losing law suits, it is gonna piss somebody off and then things will start getting heated.

[Alan T]

I hope that doing that might get me some valuable information, but who knows?

I've thought about putting out alot of lawsuits to try to get more information as well. The reasons I held off on it was:

1) Wanted to see who would sue whom and with what reasoning.
2) Wanted to see who wasn't going to sue anyone even when there were people (or perhaps powerful people even) who didn't have any lawsuits on them.
3) Not sure what the negative consequences of a failed lawsuit are
4) Not sure how many lawsuits the court can handle in a day just yet.

[Coffee Warlord]

Hmm. A thought hath occured to me. Can we have several people buy the other services today, in the hopes that whatever info they receive post-purchase can shed some light on just what the hell some of those do?

[Poli]

I have no qualm with that.

[Alan T]

Hmm. A thought hath occured to me. Can we have several people buy the other services today, in the hopes that whatever info they receive post-purchase can shed some light on just what the hell some of those do?

I had tried to get some conversation started on those services earlier, but no one else joined in. My guess is people are holding their cards close to their vest and are planning on getting some of those services, thus don't want to talk about them too much.

[Coffee Warlord]

I had tried to get some conversation started on those services earlier, but no one else joined in. My guess is people are holding their cards close to their vest and are planning on getting some of those services, thus don't want to talk about them too much.

Which I think is a bad, bad idea. Once we get further along and learn who is important, and who is, well, not, we *need* a good working knowledge of the tools we have to protect them and/or snuff out the traitors. Since none of us can really say for sure what those things do (some of them are pretty obvious sounding, but others are not), I think the early days are our best opportunity to get that info. It's not like any of us can justify saying "But I NEED the Horse Seller today!" this early.

[path12]

I think I'm a little late on the suing bandwagon, the main people have been covered and I don't want to clog the system until we get a better handle on how many cases can actually go through. I have no problem with trying out one of the services though.

[Alan T]

Well as for the jobs, I still have curiosity to what some of them do..

Like I said previously I can take a guess what the legionarres do.. I assume some kind of bodyguard role. If so though, what does the former warlord do? Is perhaps he the bodyguard, and the legionarres are some lesser form of bodyguard? Maybe not necessarily 100% bodyguard? Could perhaps there be some purchasable assassin type character that you could hire, and the warlord is that?

What would the sex slaves do if you hire them? I mean, I like women as much as the next guy but I am uncertain what they could do to help us further the cause of the republic? Perhaps some form of limited witness role?

I also wonder what the horse dealers or the priest would do for us.. In the case of the horse dealers, you would want a horse to either improve your movement speed, or to move heavier baggage? I don't have any ideas of how either of those would help anyone here in the Senate at all. Also not sure how one's religious convictions would play a part on if someone was loyal to the republic or treasonous so not sure where the Priest fits in.

[Poli]

Persons selling their services in the Forum

Gallus Clarus, ex-legionnaire
Titus Ludius, ex-legionnaire
Durus Pimpus, dealer in sexual slaves
Animus Sentus, person rumored to be affiliated with the Priesthood
Furius Lucius, former warlord of Gaul, enslaved and now freed
Lexus Postus, owner of many horses
Blakus Fortunatus, owner of many horses

and of course,
Swaggus Swaggus
Ardentus Enthusiastus

I like what the Warlord says. I'll go ahead and announce this. I will be trying to obtain the services of Gallus Clarus.

[Grammaticus]

Grammaticus Atticus sues Autumnus Leavus

He is one wealth scale above me, so likely cannot hire a better lawyer than me, hopefully increasing my chances of winning and gaining some wealth. In that group, he has made some comments about randomizing the suing process, which could be an attempt to hide the trail of the traitors among us. Seems like a good candidate right now.

[Grammaticus]

My guess on the services are:

ex-legionnaire - likely a chance to kill someone or protect you. Killing for power, etc. was pretty common in those days
dealer in sex slaves - maybe it affords you a chance to block someone else for the day, role/action blocker
affiliated w/priesthood - maybe a seer or soothsayer attempt
warlord of gaul - assassin or bodyguard who kills an attacker (berserker like)
owner of horses - lets you escape an action against you

[Autumn]

Grammaticus Atticus sues Autumnus Leavus

He is one wealth scale above me, so likely cannot hire a better lawyer than me, hopefully increasing my chances of winning and gaining some wealth. In that group, he has made some comments about randomizing the suing process, which could be an attempt to hide the trail of the traitors among us. Seems like a good candidate right now.

I don't mind being sued, and I'm not going to attempt to hire a laywer. But for clarification, I don't know if your reasoning makes sense. I think being at a higher wealth level would let me hire a better lawyer. Right?

[Autumn]

Which I think is a bad, bad idea. Once we get further along and learn who is important, and who is, well, not, we *need* a good working knowledge of the tools we have to protect them and/or snuff out the traitors. Since none of us can really say for sure what those things do (some of them are pretty obvious sounding, but others are not), I think the early days are our best opportunity to get that info. It's not like any of us can justify saying "But I NEED the Horse Seller today!" this early.

That makes sense to me. If we each agree to pursue a service and then relate to the Senate what happened, we will know a lot more.

I will attempt to hire the services of one of the horse traders and report on my success.

[Grammaticus]

I don't mind being sued, and I'm not going to attempt to hire a laywer. But for clarification, I don't know if your reasoning makes sense. I think being at a higher wealth level would let me hire a better lawyer. Right?

Well, there are only 2 named lawyers and st.cronin said all the rest are generic. That implies equal skill. I would say with greater than 2 of the top tier wealth senators getting sued, the 2 named laywers will not be available to the second wealth tier. Therefore, I do not think anyone sued in that second tier will have an advantage in quality of representation.

[Barkeep49]

Well, there are only 2 named lawyers and st.cronin said all the rest are generic. That implies equal skill. I would say with greater than 2 of the top tier wealth senators getting sued, the 2 named laywers will not be available to the second wealth tier. Therefore, I do not think anyone sued in that second tier will have an advantage in quality of representation.
I would tend to agree with this analysis. It seems like I'm stupid if I don't bid on a service, but am having a great deal of trouble deciding which one to do giving my somewhat middling/below average wealth.

[KWhit]

I have bid on the services of a horse trader.

[Ironhead]

I'm okay with the lawsuit against me from the perspective that I have nothing to hide. At this time though I am leaning towards not randomly suing anyone myself until I have more information regarding the following things:

a) How are lawsuits won and lost (random.org?)?
b) What are the negative consequences of suing someone and losing?

We aren't going to have any answers to those questions until at least the second day. For all I know I could currently be the 4th wealthiest man in Rome, which would put me in an excellent position to acquire services and aid the Republic. It makes perfect sense for information gathering purposes for the Senators of ordinary wealth to sue the people in power because even if they lose, the village doesn't lose anything.

[ImTheCrew]

late check in..... one of the wealthiest in rome

[DaddyTorgo]

KWhit issued a barrage of lawsuits...could he be trying to clog the court? just a thought

i'll go for the pleasurable women if no one else wants to. spend some of my limited cash there. at least i'll get some good fun out of it

[path12]

I've placed a bid with the priest.

[Neon_Chaos]

Geez. Lawsuits. Complicated stuff. Whatever happened back when it was a simple game of werewolf?

What do these guys do?

Gallus Clarus, ex-legionnaire
Titus Ludius, ex-legionnaire
Durus Pimpus, dealer in sexual slaves
Animus Sentus, person rumored to be affiliated with the Priesthood
Furius Lucius, former warlord of Gaul, enslaved and now freed
Lexus Postus, owner of many horses
Blakus Fortunatus, owner of many horses

and of course,
Swaggus Swaggus
Ardentus Enthusiastus

For Roman Senators, we sure are clueless about EVERYTHING everyone else does. Well, I know I am.

Ok, so we sue each other, then what happens? How do they work? How do you win? lose? Etc.?

Bah. I'm suing Barkeep.

NEON CHAOS sues BARKEEP

How do we weed out the baddies?

methinks st. cronin rushed this game out too early. :)

[Peregrine]

PEREGRINUS sues PATH12

Might as well get the ball rolling with the lawsuits.

Also, I'd like to say that without any information, I'd look at the consuls arresting anyone as very suspicious at this point.

[Barkeep49]

I'm bothered with these last two lawsuits presented without reason.

[Poli]

Would you like to sue them for it? Need a good lawyer? :)

[KWhit]

KWhit issued a barrage of lawsuits...could he be trying to clog the court? just a thought


Nope. Just trying to gain information.

As I said earlier, I welcome lawsuits (or seer scans, if they are available). I'm loyal to Rome.

[Peregrine]

Why's the bother Barkeep? I've announced multiple times that suing everyone is the way to win. We have to find the traitors, and that seems to be the best way.

[hoopsguy]

Also, I'd like to say that without any information, I'd look at the consuls arresting anyone as very suspicious at this point.

This brings up the old "lynch to gain information" argument. I would have to believe that the Tarqs have some way to be able to thin the herd. As Romans, the only way we have a chance to catch a Tarq is to throw them off the cliff. We can't do that without them first being arrested. So if the consuls don't issue an arrest warrant, then there is no chance for us to execute a Tarq.

I would expect there are ways to gain information outside of voting records - potentially through lawsuits, probably through the services for hire - but do we want for those results to come in and then go through a two-day process to remove the clearly identified Tarq?

If we don't like the two people they arrest, then we don't have to issue a vote, correct? Going from memory, a majority needs to vote for a candidate for him to splash into the water at the end of the "cycle" (not day or night, going to take some time to get used to that).

[hoopsguy]

From Cronin, post #2:
Since a majority vote is required, it is possible for both players to go free

[st.cronin]

The lawsuits will be resolved on their merits. I believe the only thing random.org needs to be consulted for is if the Tribune post should become empty.

[Alan T]

PEREGRINUS sues PATH12

Might as well get the ball rolling with the lawsuits.

Also, I'd like to say that without any information, I'd look at the consuls arresting anyone as very suspicious at this point.

I will not allow such scare tactics stand in my way of presenting people before the senate for judgement. If the Senate declares there to be not enough proof of treason to throw an arrested senator off of the rock, then that is the voice of the people. I shall not stand dormant in my elected post when the people expect action.

Why's the bother Barkeep? I've announced multiple times that suing everyone is the way to win. We have to find the traitors, and that seems to be the best way.


I apologize, but I must have missed where you said this multiple times before I brought up the idea. I apologize for taking credit for your great idea!

[Alan T]

In case anyone is missing my tongue in cheek response to the last part of my last post.. this was the day 1 interaction between us. :)

Also I am curious to what reasons many of us would have to sue another for. I don't have any information that would indicate personal conflicts with others on an individual level. As far as I am aware, its the senate looking to keep ourselves free from our former opressors. If we end up finding someone not loyal to the republic's cause we simply would throw them off the rock, not bring up an individual lawsuit.

So does anyone have any thoughts on what reasons or goals would be behind personal lawsuits?

Alan, money is another thing that needs explanation. What good are the services that the various vendors provide? I guess st. cronin will explain that in time. Apparently lawsuits are just to make yourself richer, but again, with no knowledge of what money is good for, it's hard to see why we'd bother. As for Tarquinians as DaddyTorgo mentioned, I have no idea who they are or why we want to kill them.

Ok, I went back and found the info on the lawsuit stuff. Missed this in my hasty reading..

So with what it says here, there being a small chance of some information on treason coming out, is there any good group reason to not have as many lawsuits as possible? Sure, you risk an individual risk of some negative consequence to your person, but its for the betterment of the republic in the long haul I would think...

Any thoughts on us all working to try to put forth as many personal lawsuits as we can in hopes we might have indications of treason pop from some (or any) of them?

[Peregrine]

What's the deal Alan T? I wasn't taking credit for anyone's idea, I just stated that I had said before that we should start suing everyone.

[Peregrine]

And yes, I can see how you'd need to leave out my last post of our interaction, post #39, where I stated:

"With so many people it will take a while, but we could just keep suing everyone until treason is revealed."

[Alan T]

What's the deal Alan T? I wasn't taking credit for anyone's idea, I just stated that I had said before that we should start suing everyone.

Don't mind me, its just my natural cynicism showing. :) I mostly just object to your comments that appear to be trying to stall the senate from finding treacherous members. My arresting someone does not throw anyone off of the rock, so the only bad move on my part would be inaction. Your comment states the exact opposite of my belief.

[st.cronin]

methinks st. cronin rushed this game out too early. :)

If some of the veterans are feeling disoriented, well, that was one of my goals in designing this game. :)

[Alan T]

And yes, I can see how you'd need to leave out my last post of our interaction, post #39, where I stated:

"With so many people it will take a while, but we could just keep suing everyone until treason is revealed."

I never said that you didn't say it! Just alot of people seem to be making claim to the idea! :) Just my natural distrust of anyone who jumps on one of my ideas immediately. :)

[Peregrine]

No, what I am saying is that unless it is revealed that the traitors have some way of killing us (which they might, but because of the lack of rules we have no idea) we should proceed along the safest possible course, which is lawsuits. If people start dying then of course we are welcome to consider executing people, but before that, why would we do so without need, when we can discover the enemies through lawsuits?

[DaddyTorgo]

woot woot

[hoopsguy]

Figured I would publish some info on the Tarquinians I found at Wikipedia. A little lesson in ancient Roman history ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus

[Peregrine]

If some of the veterans are feeling disoriented, well, that was one of my goals in designing this game. :)

Just my opinion, st. cronin, but I feel like you should have provided more information if that is the case. Right now we have so little information that I can't help but feel the rules are broken, especially in the case of the mysterious services that no one knows anything about.

You can disorient people plenty and still have a full ruleset, IMO.

[st.cronin]

Just my opinion, st. cronin, but I feel like you should have provided more information if that is the case. Right now we have so little information that I can't help but feel the rules are broken, especially in the case of the mysterious services that no one knows anything about.

You can disorient people plenty and still have a full ruleset, IMO.

Patience grasshopper.

[Narcizo]

Might as well get the ball rolling with the lawsuits.


Umm... I think KWhit got there before you with the ball rolling. :p

The suing thing seems like the way to go, but we're now going to have to sit and wait to see how many cases are tried a day and what exactly happens with these things. I'd be surprised if it's a super effective way of finding the wolfies but we might get lucky and for want of any better information then it's the right way to go.

I've only got limited computer/interynet access until tomorrow morning (my time - ie middle of the night for you lot). I haven't really had time to read everything through carefully and, looking at the clock, I'm not really going to have time to do so.

As stated before I will be looking to vote for people who don't seem to be contributing much for the first three days or so, irrespective of who looks guilty. In big games like this it seems that the safest course for the wolfies is to avoid the spotlight and let the villagers who actually say something build up a case against each other based on that. So if you want to avoid my super-powerful 4% of the vote (or whatever it is) then say lots.

PS. Is this Marc "Sports Interactive" Vaughan Passa is filling in for? Scratch what I said then, I know who I'm voting for. He's, almost literally, forced me to lose months of valuable time playing C/FM.

[Tyrith]

I'm staying out of this lawsuit mess. Honestly, I doubt that we're going to be allowed to game the game quite this easily. Feel free to sue me; it will be no loss, as I am the vanilla's vanilla. However, for now I'm going to let everyone else have it at while I try to slowly figure out what the heck is going on.

[Narcizo]

Figured I would publish some info on the Tarquinians I found at Wikipedia. A little lesson in ancient Roman history ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus

The wolfs must be very embarrassed to have their cause linked to someone called Tarquin. :D Not exactly the coolest villain name out there.

[Tyrith]

The suing thing seems like the way to go, but we're now going to have to sit and wait to see how many cases are tried a day and what exactly happens with these things. I'd be surprised if it's a super effective way of finding the wolfies but we might get lucky and for want of any better information then it's the right way to go.

This is a better way of saying about what I'm thinking right now.

Cronin, are these lawsuits retractable?

If they aren't, we might not want to generate a giant backlog in case we have a better reason to file lawsuits later...also, there are negative consequences involved to losing lawsuits, so I wouldn't want all the good guys to go too lawsuit crazy, because it will either show who is okay with backlash or, if we keep generating lawsuits, who feels they are too valuable to risk the backlash.

[Autumn]

Well, there are only 2 named lawyers and st.cronin said all the rest are generic. That implies equal skill. I would say with greater than 2 of the top tier wealth senators getting sued, the 2 named laywers will not be available to the second wealth tier. Therefore, I do not think anyone sued in that second tier will have an advantage in quality of representation.

Unless someone actually hires the lawyers though, they won't get their representation. I would certainly like to hear it if anyone is planning on hiring a lawyer to defend themselves. I'm not.

[Neon_Chaos]

I'm bothered with these last two lawsuits presented without reason.

Feel free to sue me back Barkeep. It was just a stab in the dark.

[Poli]

The lawsuits will be resolved on their merits. I believe the only thing random.org needs to be consulted for is if the Tribune post should become empty.
Awesome. Clearly mine will be seen first.

[st.cronin]

Cronin, are these lawsuits retractable?

A suit can be withdrawn any time before it goes to the courts. To explain how this works, I will give an example:

player A sues player B on day 1

day 1 deadline, the courts announce they will hear player A's suit against player B on day 2

At that point, you may no longer withdraw the suit.

[Poli]

Can you fail to show up for your court appearance?

[Poli]

Are bench warrants issued?

[Poli]

Can I sue for more rules?

[st.cronin]

no, no, and no

:p

[Poli]

Can I increase my rates?

[Poli]

no, no, and no

:p
I object!

[Alan T]

No, what I am saying is that unless it is revealed that the traitors have some way of killing us (which they might, but because of the lack of rules we have no idea) we should proceed along the safest possible course, which is lawsuits. If people start dying then of course we are welcome to consider executing people, but before that, why would we do so without need, when we can discover the enemies through lawsuits?


I still plan on finding someone to arrest, and allow the senate be the voice on whether or not someone is suspicious or not. If you find that suspicious, then thats fine with me. Maybe you will be lucky and be the one arrested and actually have a reason to find it suspicious if you are actually innocent :)

[Poli]

How about the NPCs? Can I sue them? :)

[Coffee Warlord]

I object!

YOU'RE out of order!

[Neon_Chaos]

YOU'RE out of order!

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[Narcizo]

Ah-ha! It is Marc Vaughan.

Anyway, that's me for today. I realise I haven't exactly filled my own criteria for participation at the moment but I expect at least 10 more pages to wade through by tomorrow morning.

[st.cronin]

KAYUS WHITUS SUES ALANUS TEEUS
ALANUS TEEUS SUES HOOPUS GUYUS
HOOPUS GUYUS SUES AUTUMNUS LEAVUS
Coffeus Yakus Warlordus Sues Ironsus Headus
DADDYus TORGOus SUES WESTVUS FANus
Autumnus Leavus Sues Westvus Fanus
AUTUMNUS LEAVUS SUES SALDANUS LATHUMUS
Ardentus Enthusiastus sues Swaggus Swaggus
Barkeepus Valerius Fortynineus sues Saldanus Lathamus
ANXIETUS ABEUS SUES DADDYUS TORGOUS
KAYUS WHITUS SUES WESTVUS FANUS
KAYUS WHITUS SUES SALDANUS LATHUMUS
KAYUS WHITUS SUES SWAGGUS SWAGGUS
KAYUS WHITUS SUES ARDENTUS ENTHUSIASTUS
Grammaticus Atticus sues Autumnus Leavus
Neon Chaos sues Barkeep
PEREGRINUS sues PATH12

[KWhit]

Rules question about the following:

2 lawyers

There will be two additional public roles, the Best Lawyer in Rome, and the Second Best Lawyer in Rome. The lawyers may be hired by any player. When you have hired a lawyer, he may be used in the following ways:



- to defend yourself from an accusation of treason (this will be more effective if the player is, in fact, innocent)

- to represent you in a lawsuit (more on this later)

- you may appoint him as the Senate's lawyer, and prosecute a charge of treason (this will be more effective if the player is, in fact, guilty)



When a player who has hired a lawyer dies, that lawyer becomes richer. Lawyers have some other abilities which are a secret.

THE PUBLIC ROLES LISTED ABOVE MAY BE EITHER REPUBLICANS OR TARQUINISTS TO BEGIN THE GAME



Lawsuits

Each day, you may name a player you feel has wronged you in a lawsuit. (It is not necessary for this lawsuit to be based on anything - all that is required is that you desire to acquire some of that player's wealth.) The following day, this lawsuit will be decided. If you successfully sue somebody, your financial situation will be improved (and your target will find himself poorer). If you sue somebody and lose, there may be negative consequences. There is also a small chance that evidence of treason may come out.


My question:

Is "accusing someone of treason" different that bringing a basic lawsuit (the stuff we have been doing all day)? The rules seem to say that they are two different things, but I'm not sure.

[st.cronin]

two different things, handled two different ways by two different bodies

[KWhit]

Also, if anyone has gotten any other rules clarifications (maybe you PMed st.cronin a question or something) please share! Nothing that gives your role away or anything, but generic rules questions, etc....

I just feel a little bit in the dark right now and we need information.

[KWhit]

two different things, handled two different ways by two different bodies

Okay. Thanks.

[bulletsponge]

whoa, who isnt getting sued?except me :p

[KWhit]

By the way, it has been alluded to earlier, but I definitely think Alanus Teeus and Westvus Fanus should arrest someone for treason. It gives us voting records for all senators as well as insights into the Consuls' allegiences as well.

Although I wouldn't put it past a treasonous consul to arrest a Tarquin just to insert himself into a circle of trust...

[KWhit]

whoa, who isnt getting sued?except me :p

KAYUS WHITUS SUES BULLETUS SPONGEUS

[KWhit]

two different things, handled two different ways by two different bodies

I re-read the rules and this makes better sense now. I was reading the rule and thinking that we normal senators (not consuls) could bring a suit of treason against someone if we had a lawyer. Is that what this rule means?

- you may appoint him as the Senate's lawyer, and prosecute a charge of treason (this will be more effective if the player is, in fact, guilty)

Or does that mean that someone can hire a lawyer and appoint him to be the prosecutor against someone WHOM A CONSUL ALREADY ARRESTED?

Thanks.

[path12]

I have the usual early questions: Big game, how many Tarquins do we have facing us? I'd suspect four to five. Conversion abilities? I would assume so (swaying or bribing senators to their position). Haven't figured out a night kill process with no real 'night' to speak of, so I'm drawing a blank on how they try and winnow down the good guys.....

[Autumn]

This is my first WW game, so I don't have a handle on first day strategy. It seems a little dangerous to arrest someone randomly at this point since it would give any traitors a chance to have someone wrongfully executed. Then again, since an execution requires a majority vote, perhaps we don't have to worry. I'll say ahead of time, before any names are put out, that I likely will not vote for conviction unless we receive evidence against someone.

[Lorena]

Alright, I'm caught up and re-read the rules so I feel a bit more comfortable with the game. Still some is a little confusing but I"m sure as the game progresses things will make better sense.

The one thing that stood out from the rules:

When a player who has hired a lawyer dies, that lawyer becomes richer.

I'm assuming it's in the lawyer's best interest to get some clients killed to increase their wealth and thus gain more power. There's a good chance one of them could be a baddie so I'll be keeping my eye out on Swaggus and Ardentus.

As I mentioned before the game started I will be on on a limited basis. I need to pick up my kid and will hope to be on at some point before deadline.

[Poli]

You should hire a lawyer to help you do that, DC. :)

[Poli]

Heading home shortly.

[DaddyTorgo]

Alan and WVU...please do arrest a person or two. Quickly. I think we do need to see a D1 vote at least.

As for the lawsuits, I see no real downside to them aside from clogging up the courts. I don't suppose our friendly "God" Cronin would be willing to tell us at what point the courts become backlogged? Otherwise perhaps a decent strategy is to file a ton of lawsuits today, keep track of how many go through (thus how many the court can handle in a day) and then withdraw the rest early tomorrow when we have an idea of how many the court can process in a day?

does that make sense?

[DaddyTorgo]

cuz if so i'd be willing to be the sacrificial lamb there and sue everyone in the game, at the risk of bankrupting myself, just in order to see how many lawsuits the court can handle in a day...

[Abe Sargent]

Hello mega dola!

[KWhit]

Hello mega dola!

He just doesn't want to be seen as "one of the quiet ones" when it comes time to throw somebody off the rock.

:)

[Lorena]

You should hire a lawyer to help you do that, DC. :)

Heh, you seem pretty eager there AE ;) In due time... in due time.

cuz if so i'd be willing to be the sacrificial lamb there and sue everyone in the game, at the risk of bankrupting myself, just in order to see how many lawsuits the court can handle in a day...

Looks like Kwhit beat you to it!

[KWhit]

Yeah, pretty much. I figure that I already one of the poorest players in the game, so why not?

[DaddyTorgo]

sorry. i hit "post quick reply" and then clicked over to do some work. came back and the text was still there, so i repeated the process. text was STILL there so i repeated it again.

obviously it wasn't clearing out of the quick-reply box

headed home in a few, but will of course be online from home

[Peregrine]

So it's going to be interesting to see how the filthy Tarquinians will expand or win. If they can convert people, it's going to take a while with so many players (unless they start with a lot.) If they can do some kind of kill action, I'm not sure. Either way it may be a long game.

[Coffee Warlord]

cuz if so i'd be willing to be the sacrificial lamb there and sue everyone in the game, at the risk of bankrupting myself, just in order to see how many lawsuits the court can handle in a day...

I get the distinct feeling we're already well above the daily limit.

[st.cronin]

I re-read the rules and this makes better sense now. I was reading the rule and thinking that we normal senators (not consuls) could bring a suit of treason against someone if we had a lawyer. Is that what this rule means?



Or does that mean that someone can hire a lawyer and appoint him to be the prosecutor against someone WHOM A CONSUL ALREADY ARRESTED?

Thanks.


This is correct, and will be better explained via pm when somebody hires a lawyer.

[Barkeep49]

I get the distinct feeling we're already well above the daily limit.
I agree.

[Coffee Warlord]

We have what, 4 hours to arrest and vote now?

[Alan T]

We have what, 4 hours to arrest and vote now?

Anyone arrested today won't be voted on until tommorrow. All we can do today is put any lawsuits out we want , put in PMs to hire people's services, and then the consuls and tribune have additional things they can do today.

You can't vote someone off of the rock until they are arrested the previous day.

[saldana]

sorry i am a little late to the party, tribune checking in, and to those of you that have chosen to sue me, I welcome your inspection, as i have nothing to hide...i was chosen to protect the people from the abuse of power of the patricians, so i hope the numerous suits against me will serve to confirm your faith in me as your protector who is loyal to the republic.

that said, i think we need to consider the fact that one of the purveyors of services could be involved in providing falsely incriminating evidence against people involved in lawsuits...so as much as it has been said that the confirmation of no evidence of treason is only a minor check mark in the exonerated persons favor, evidence to the contrary should be viewed with equal suspicion.

[KWhit]

that said, i think we need to consider the fact that one of the purveyors of services could be involved in providing falsely incriminating evidence against people involved in lawsuits...so as much as it has been said that the confirmation of no evidence of treason is only a minor check mark in the exonerated persons favor, evidence to the contrary should be viewed with equal suspicion.

Interesting....

[Coffee Warlord]

Anyone arrested today won't be voted on until tommorrow. All we can do today is put any lawsuits out we want , put in PMs to hire people's services, and then the consuls and tribune have additional things they can do today.

You can't vote someone off of the rock until they are arrested the previous day.

Keep forgetting that one. But still, we *are* winding down on arrests time.

[saldana]

i agree that time is winding down, but as i refuse to sue one of the people that i am sworn to represent, i will just sit back and await the arrest warrants of the consuls

[Alan T]

Keep forgetting that one. But still, we *are* winding down on arrests time.

Arrest orders are put in via PM. not in the thread, and it is said there won't be any records of the arrests (or if someone chooses to not make an arrest). So the consuls (myself and Westvus Fanus for now, and future consuls after us) will be your source of who they arrested and why they chose to arrest them.

There isn't any rush to get arrest orders in that don't take effect until the next day other than a risk of bad guy actions occuring at some point during the day which could stop an arrest request from occuring perhaps if the bad guy action occurs before it chronologically. We don't know yet how that aspect of this game works just yet, so we will have to see either today or tommorrow. (Is it a safe assumption there won't be any kills today due to not being able to hire any kind of protection for today?)

I also am hesitant about those who indicated a strong desire to know what everyone was doing in the way of hiring services. Once we know what certain services do, it only takes matching up which people with the most money went for which services to know who is bodyguarded and who isn't. I think I much rather find out from people what the roles do/did after they no longer can use it for good, if that makes sense. Ie: getting the information about the hired services is good but not until it won't help the bad guys know where to plan a move for that day.

[Alan T]

Arrest orders are put in via PM. not in the thread, and it is said there won't be any records of the arrests (or if someone chooses to not make an arrest). So the consuls (myself and Westvus Fanus for now, and future consuls after us) will be your source of who they arrested and why they chose to arrest them.


Dola, what I meant by this, is I assume it will be public knowledge that someone was arrested.. but to which Consul arrested them and why won't be from what I understand.

[Grammaticus]

i agree that time is winding down, but as i refuse to sue one of the people that i am sworn to represent, i will just sit back and await the arrest warrants of the consuls

We are Senators, not plebs. How insulting. At least I'm assuming that all Senators but you are patricians and not plebeians.

[saldana]

We are Senators, not plebs. How insulting. At least I'm assuming that all Senators but you are patricians and not plebeians.
interesting that you are separating yourself so distinctly from the people you are supposed to be representing

[path12]

interesting that you are separating yourself so distinctly from the people you are supposed to be representing

I don't know that the Roman Senate was all that concerned about the little people.....

[Coffee Warlord]

I don't know that the Roman Senate was all that concerned about the little people.....

Someone has to buy my yaks.

[DaddyTorgo]

I have returned home. I'm around

[saldana]

I don't know that the Roman Senate was all that concerned about the little people.....

which is exactly the problem...you are supposed to be loyal to the people of rome, not the senate

[Antmeister]

Man....all these lawsuits are making my head spin. Since no one knows how we are going to process the lawsuits, how is one going to know if it is safe to sue multiple people?

And what were to happen if someone were to acquire these services because I have no idea if they will have negative or positive effects on the outcome of the lawsuits.


Plus do we know 100% that these lawsuits will not be automatically assigned to a lawyer under certain circumstance. Because any of these lawyers can easily be Tarqs and we can be playing right into their hands.

[LoneStarGirl]

Well I have been around all day but I dont feel like I can contribute much. I am a little confused right now but I think that is the joy of the game and Cronin is doing it on purpose. I haven't been sued nor have I sued because at this point I dont think the courts can hear all that we have anyway so it will just be a waste. But I welcome anybody to sue me or do whatever you have to in order to get information out of me because I am just a Senator.

[Lorena]

Plus do we know 100% that these lawsuits will not be automatically assigned to a lawyer under certain circumstance. Because any of these lawyers can easily be Tarqs and we can be playing right into their hands.

If I'm understanding the rules correctly, we're assigned an average lawyer unless we hire either Ardentus or Swaggus (dunno if this is done by PM or here in the forum, waiting on cronin for this). You're right, if either of these lawyers is on the side of the Tarqs, we're in trouble.

Following this thought, if they both start out as loyal to the Republic, if there's a conversion ability and one of them becomes a Tarq, we're pretty screwed. Especially if they gain wealth off of other players' deaths.

[Lorena]

OMG, ignore the smilie face in jibberish on my subject line. Our son somehow figured out how to add text on the subject. Hell, I don't even know how to add a smilie on the subject line.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's awesome DC

but ya know...i think it might be a secret wolf-ish code.

VOTE DODGERCHICK...EARLY AND OFTEN EVERYONE

(hehe jk)

[Alan T]

If I'm understanding the rules correctly, we're assigned an average lawyer unless we hire either Ardentus or Swaggus (dunno if this is done by PM or here in the forum, waiting on cronin for this). You're right, if either of these lawyers is on the side of the Tarqs, we're in trouble.

Following this thought, if they both start out as loyal to the Republic, if there's a conversion ability and one of them becomes a Tarq, we're pretty screwed. Especially if they gain wealth off of other players' deaths.

I believe hiring all services including the services of lawyers for the next day is done via PM, and does not have to be revealed.

[Lorena]

I believe hiring all services including the services of lawyers for the next day is done via PM, and does not have to be revealed.

Yeah, that makes sense.

that's awesome DC

but ya know...i think it might be a secret wolf-ish code.

VOTE DODGERCHICK...EARLY AND OFTEN EVERYONE

(hehe jk)

Har har... vote me and I'll sue your arse! I'm rich bitch! :p

Sorry, I keep hearing Dave Chappelle saying that line, I couldn't help myself.

[SnDvls]

wow just got caught up

[SnDvls]

Snus Dvlus sues KAYUS WHITUS

just because no one else has and he has the most "lawsuits" out there. seems to make sense to try and clear the person w/ the most "suits" out there.

LSG - I can offer up a suit on you if you are feeling left out :D