Werewolf LXXII: Chess (Checkmate!)

[mccollins]

That's problematic, since that points to one of the white pawns being a wolf. That means white does not control the vote - black + wolves control the vote.

Help me here - why couldn't the other black pawn-holder be a wolf?
Seems to me they would have ordered KWhit to be killed, knowing he was a pawn and held 4 votes. That way the villagers would have less control over the voting...

[mccollins]

dola, I think I just got it - that is an extension of the 2 black wolves (hoops, Anxiety) theory. I'm with ya now.

[path12]

I was trying to kill the queen...but of course, that already occurred.

I saw you and was moving out of danger. Didn't do me much good.

[hoopsguy]

dola- man, it really is getting hard for me to prove I'm no wolf these days

I've got the same problem.

[RendeR]

I've got the same problem.


You earned it.

[RendeR]

As for Cronin asserting that his partner is a wolf, I will politely disagree. since I am that partner.

I've stayed put thus far waiting to move on the black king. I've scanned 2 people and missed one scan due to work interference.

Lathum and Sonic Youth both came back Black to me.

lets remove the obvious wolf then focus on the rest. too much speclation today might just screw up an easy elimination of he wolves altogether.

I will be moving tonight.

I'm not sure there is anyone we do not yet know the black/white value of at this point. if there is, tell me and I'l scan them.

VOTE ANXIETY

[The Jackal]

I'll be scanning you tonight, Render. I'm 95-100% positive you're right next to me. So we'll find out if you're a wolf or not.

[The Jackal]

Oh, wait, I read that wrong. You -will- be moving tonight? Then we might have a problem. Though from what I understand, if I can see you at any point, I'll get a scan, and I think I see you now, so I should be able to tell either way.

[The Jackal]

Well, the one bad thing about a runaway vote is that no one's said a damn thing today.

[RendeR]

this is a good thing though, the less conversation we have today the less the wolves can foment chaos during the down time while we eliminate anxiety.

[Passacaglia]

Well, the one bad thing about a runaway vote is that no one's said a damn thing today.

Seems like evenings have been quiet throughout this game.

[The Jackal]

this is a good thing though, the less conversation we have today the less the wolves can foment chaos during the down time while we eliminate anxiety.

I guess that's true.

[The Jackal]

Seems like evenings have been quiet throughout this game.

That's actually an important note to me, because I want to make the best possible deadline time.. I'm pretty much free all day and night EST, and I'd like as many players as possible, so if anyone has any recommendations, do PM me.

[The Jackal]

dola

uh, that was for the game i'm running in probably two-three months, since i didn't make that clear, but still. since i'm free most times, and i've only played in 5 or so games here, was just wondering what the "accepted" best deadline time is, or anything near to it.

[Neon_Chaos]

*yawn*

[ntndeacon]

Vote Anxiety

[Chief Rum]

Ooh, ooh - quote it please!

Good thing this isn't Sonic Youth. It might take five pages of back and forth to even get a hint as to which post it was. :)

[Narcizo]

Vote Anxiety

Deacon if I'm interpreting what Cronin is saying correctly then you need to move phase one. Just to re-iterate.

[Neon_Chaos]

Oooh. Phase one.

[Narcizo]

Anyroad. Things didn't quite go as the wolves might have hoped last night but they certainly weren't good for white or black either. Losing two pawns isn't optimal for us, I have to say.

Qwik, no reason you should want to talk to me but you say that cronin isn't a wolf. Does this mean you think he isn't a wolf or that you know he isn't a wolf. Given my suspicions yesterday I'm interested in that. Also, when did Anxiety out himself to you?

Vote Anxiety

Two birds. One stone. Result.

Needless to say any white piece (and we all know who they are now) not voting Anxiety may as well get their "Look at me! I'm a wolf!" T-shirts printed now.

[Qwikshot]

Checking over a few things...now that I'm read up and perhaps not so stupid today...

I still don't regret my actions, because I figured I would be killed taking the queen and didn't want to die without at least getting one reveal out of the way for the benefit of the entire villager group.

I don't see how moving to C6 helps because from what I gather the white bishop is at E3 and I'm at D4 with a bunch of white pawns behind me. Of course I could move back and take the pawn at B5 or F5, or I could keep pressing forward. I think Jackal's last spot was F3, of course he could have moved further towards the black army, but he could be standing still and scanning still...if that is the case, he's just as likely to jump for me as I would for him, but then again I /can't/ see the pawns that were in G2 and H2, nor do I know where A2's pawn is. And of course, the biggie is the rooks and king.

Where I am at, I can scan a bunch of white pieces, and I assume, that white is where the remainder of wolves hide. So do you allow me a few turns to lie still and scan? Or do you, for defense purposes since I'm about 2 moves from putting the king in check (assuming he hasn't moved).

I figure with so many white pawns northward that a rook has me lined up at D1. I can't see the other white bishop at this time.

[Qwikshot]

Anyroad. Things didn't quite go as the wolves might have hoped last night but they certainly weren't good for white or black either. Losing two pawns isn't optimal for us, I have to say.

Qwik, no reason you should want to talk to me but you say that cronin isn't a wolf. Does this mean you think he isn't a wolf or that you know he isn't a wolf. Given my suspicions yesterday I'm interested in that. Also, when did Anxiety out himself to you?

Vote Anxiety

Two birds. One stone. Result.

Needless to say any white piece (and we all know who they are now) not voting Anxiety may as well get their "Look at me! I'm a wolf!" T-shirts printed now.

My night scan says I learned that Cronin is not a wolf. I think that's pretty clean cut.

[Qwikshot]

Anxiety never outed himself, I scanned him on Night Two because we were setting up moves and he was in close proximity to me...I was going to move up the side when I had a moment of clarity and said to myself, perhaps I should scan my partner since I know he's in range and I don't know who everyone else is...

[st.cronin]

Qwik, you obviously can see some spaces I can't see. I am just saying that I see danger where you are and in several spots you can move.

[Sonic Youth]

Black, vote Anxiety off. As a measure of trust, here's my board:Does that mean that white will return the favour next turn?

[mccollins]

Here's the thing about moving / capturing - if you move on turn 1 and the person attempts to capture you on turn 1, from what I understand from Pass, you won't be captured.

[mccollins]

Does that mean that white will return the favour next turn?

The theory is that we will have identified 2 black wolves and will turn to find the (we're guessing) 2 white wolves.

[st.cronin]

Yeah, once Anxiety is voted off, there's no reason to vote for a black player. I certainly won't be.

[PurdueBrad]

Does that mean that white will return the favour next turn?

Assuming Anxiety is a wolf, yeah, that's exactly what this means.

[jeheinz72]

I can't see why we'd try black again if Anx is a wolf.

[Sonic Youth]

I guess night actions and stuff like that will show which way things go next time.

Vote Anxiety.

[Qwikshot]

Assuming Anxiety is a wolf, yeah, that's exactly what this means.

I was waiting for someone to start casting doubt...I want to keep a check on those that (pun not intended).

[oliegirl]

VOTE ANXIETY

Getting my vote in early, I'm working today but my son is home sick with an ear infection and bad allergy attack, so I'm not sure how the day will go. I should be around though and will keep up with what is going on :)

[st.cronin]

I believe that Anxiety is a wolf, but it wouldn't be completely shocking if he turned up white.

[PurdueBrad]

I was waiting for someone to start casting doubt...I want to keep a check on those that (pun not intended).

Qwik, my only doubt here is that I'm blindly following someone else's claim. He's a wolf, I'm incredibly happy, sorry if my doubt came off as anything else.

[Qwikshot]

Qwik, my only doubt here is that I'm blindly following someone else's claim. He's a wolf, I'm incredibly happy, sorry if my doubt came off as anything else.

But he admitted it...

[Qwikshot]

I believe that Anxiety is a wolf, but it wouldn't be completely shocking if he turned up white.

Huh...I'm the black knight, I talk to Anxiety because he was my partnet as a knight, I found out he was a wolf.

[Qwikshot]

I protected Lathum because I scanned him last night and he came back clean. Not because he's a wolf.

And yes, i am the last black wolf, no question about that. More after deadline.

See above quote...

[Qwikshot]

I believe that Anxiety is a wolf, but it wouldn't be completely shocking if he turned up white.

Yes it would.

[PurdueBrad]

But he admitted it...

Went back and found that, I've apparently missed an entire page of the thread (like Anxiety's happy dance at telling us exactly what he was going to do and then doing it). So yeah, can I vote for him extra times?

[st.cronin]

Qwik, I'm just imagining a scenario where you and the wolves conspire to hand over a white wolf, knowing that white has a big block of votes. I agree its unlikely, and I'm not sure how it would work. Also it's not going to change my vote.

[Qwikshot]

So I guess the biggest question is, do you let me, the black knight live?

Since there is some doubt as to whether Jackal is truthful or not, but there is no doubt that I am, unless you think I sold Anxiety up the river...

But this is where my stupidity is a benefit...had it gotten to a situation where I was in danger (through vote), or Anxiety and I got to a point where something had to be revealed...there wouldn't have been a few turns of wondering who is who...

So the question remains, am I important enough to keep for both black and white, or does white kill me off and take a gamble with jackal?

If the remainder of the wolves are white, then make no doubt, white is going to be hurting soon.

Now I've gone and done all of this, I promise, that I would not attack any white pieces, I'll stay in place and scan, or move to mutually agreed locations, but I think that white pieces should stop moving as well.

Once the wolves are rooted out, let me get back to starting point or at least the neutral zone and we have our nice dustoff?

[st.cronin]

Qwik, I am ok with that plan.

[mccollins]

Qwik, at this point, as a knight/seer, I think you are one of our best assets to both black and white for finding the remaining wolves.

[Qwikshot]

Cronin I assume you are in a kill spot. My question is whether your associates feel the same way?

I assume your king would have to order that stuff.

Of course, I know the black king isn't so receptive, but perhaps if we find out that a bishop or rook is of the same wolfish persuasion that it might change his tune...of course, if a white pawn is the one, then it also benefits black...

Black has weathered the storm that white has now to face...the big question is whether white wants to or not...

[Qwikshot]

Of course, the other big thing is names...I've cleared Cronin, we know that NTN and Neon are the kings...Jackal is a question mark but out of my sightline. So whom do I read, I've got white pawns to my north.

[st.cronin]

Qwik I believe white villagers will leave you be. White wolves may move to take you out, if they think they can get away with it.

[Qwikshot]

I will make this vow right now...I'm not moving this evening.

It's a big risk, but if I am killed through moves, I think you'll have found another wolf.

[PurdueBrad]

Qwik, I have pawns in front of you and will put in an action now not to attack.

[st.cronin]

Narcizo, heinz, or Purduebrad. Those are white players unvouched for. There's obviously one more - there's 2 rooks, 2 pawns. I can't think who I'm missing.

[PurdueBrad]

Qwik, I just submitted my order not to attack you. IF Qwik gets attacked, you'll need to lynch either myself or my partner. I unfortunately deleted my PM from last night though and can't remember if my partner could attack the knight. I know I can and I was going to but have submitted otherwise.

[jeheinz72]

Of course, the other big thing is names...I've cleared Cronin, we know that NTN and Neon are the kings...Jackal is a question mark but out of my sightline. So whom do I read, I've got white pawns to my north.

I'd say scan those pawns. It fits with the MO of how I think the wolves laid out (one pawn, rook, knight and bishop). Additionally I'd think team wise a pawn and bishop would be roughly akin to a knight and rook.

[mccollins]

Narcizo, heinz, or Purduebrad. Those are white players unvouched for. There's obviously one more - there's 2 rooks, 2 pawns. I can't think who I'm missing.

RendeR?

[jeheinz72]

Narcizo, heinz, or Purduebrad. Those are white players unvouched for. There's obviously one more - there's 2 rooks, 2 pawns. I can't think who I'm missing.

Did Render get cleared? Or was he slated to get scanned today?

I think the other white pawns are Mccollins, if I have it right. If that is right, I don't think he's cleared either.

As far as me, I welcome a scan. I'm still tucked back at H1 though. The best I can do is make it within range the day after today. Additionally Jackal can scan me.

[Qwikshot]

Let me say this, I can only convince you of my own personal actions, I cannot speak for my other brethren. If you are forced into self-preservation, I cannot ask you to not defend yourself, I only ask that you let me scan. If it is noticed that I've moved without stating such, then my deal with the whites is broken and I'm fair game.

[PurdueBrad]

I'd say scan those pawns. It fits with the MO of how I think the wolves laid out (one pawn, rook, knight and bishop). Additionally I'd think team wise a pawn and bishop would be roughly akin to a knight and rook.

I second this, scan the pawns, either mine or my partner's. I *believe* that there is likely one pawn wolf and it's not me and I doubt it is black so I would be curious to see my partner scanned although my partner has played a very clean, open, and honest game with me so I am second-guessing this possibility. But even if it is me that gets scanned, I'll at least be cleared.

[st.cronin]

Render and I are the white bishops.

[PurdueBrad]

Let me say this, I can only convince you of my own personal actions, I cannot speak for my other brethren. If you are forced into self-preservation, I cannot ask you to not defend yourself, I only ask that you let me scan. If it is noticed that I've moved without stating such, then my deal with the whites is broken and I'm fair game.

I am here as well. As I have now openly stated, I'm not attacking. If he gets attacked, you'll have to vote me or my partner off because someone would have been lying in here.

[PurdueBrad]

Out of fairness, I'm not outing my partner. But I am a pawn and I'm the one that lost two in last night's moves (whoever took them, nice job).

[jeheinz72]

Render and I are the white bishops.


RendeR hasn't been cleared, has he?

[st.cronin]

2. The Jackal - White Knight
3. mccollins
5. jeheinz72
6. st.cronin - White Bishop
7. Anxiety - Black Knight
9. Narcizo
10. PurdueBrad - White Pawns
11. RendeR - White Bishop
14. oliegirl
15. ntndeacon - White King
18. Sonic Youth
19. Neon_Chaos - Black King
20. Qwikshot - Black Knight

Unaccounted for - 1 White Pawns, 2 White Rooks, 1 Black Rook, 1 Black Pawns

[st.cronin]

RendeR hasn't been cleared, has he?

No, Jackal said he may scan him tonight. Also I assume heinz is one of the white rooks.

[PurdueBrad]

Qwik, if you are still around, please scan the pawns turn 1. I will be moving (although NOT capturing) in turn 2. Does this request make sense?

I think it might be in everyone's best interest if someone's pawn can become another bodyguard or seer which happens if we hit the end of the board.

[mccollins]

As far as me, I welcome a scan. I'm still tucked back at H1 though. The best I can do is make it within range the day after today. Additionally Jackal can scan me.

If you're the H1 Rook, then you were on H3 after Turn 1. Why would you move back to H1?

[mccollins]

2. The Jackal - White Knight
3. mccollins
5. jeheinz72
6. st.cronin - White Bishop
7. Anxiety - Black Knight
9. Narcizo
10. PurdueBrad - White Pawns
11. RendeR - White Bishop
14. oliegirl
15. ntndeacon - White King
18. Sonic Youth
19. Neon_Chaos - Black King
20. Qwikshot - Black Knight

Unaccounted for - 1 White Pawns, 2 White Rooks, 1 Black Rook, 1 Black Pawns

Cronin, I think I have deduced a list of what everyone is. I've been holding on to this because I haven't been sure who to trust or what should be revealed.

[mccollins]

Qwik, if you are still around, please scan the pawns turn 1. I will be moving (although NOT capturing) in turn 2. Does this request make sense?

I think it might be in everyone's best interest if someone's pawn can become another bodyguard or seer which happens if we hit the end of the board.

From the rules, the Knights have to submit a player name and not the piece name.

In addition, it appears that Pass has clarified that if the player being scanned is in the Knight's range (adjacent or in a legal Knight move square) then they will receive a scan result. Thus, the timing doesn't matter.

[PurdueBrad]

There is a black pawn in D6 who could attack me turn 1, for the sake of helping to form a COT, I ask that you do not attack me. I'm willing to be scanned and I think we have some momentum vs. the wolves. If I get attacked by that black pawn, I would assume that he/she is a wolf. Pawn in D6, I am not attacking you at all either but will be moving past you/next to you in turn 2.

[st.cronin]

Cronin, I think I have deduced a list of what everyone is. I've been holding on to this because I haven't been sure who to trust or what should be revealed.

Yeah, I have my own guesses as well. That list is just what's been claimed in thread.

[jeheinz72]

If you're the H1 Rook, then you were on H3 after Turn 1. Why would you move back to H1?

Yes, I am the H1 rook. I moved up to get a view of the board and then back to play it safe. My rook ability is the protect board attack variety. So when I moved up I knew I couldn't die that way. I moved back when I had an idea of who the better white pieces were and that they were too advancing on the board so I protected them. I'm also a gigantic pussy of a chess player. I play super-conservatively.

I'm moving tonight though. I'm also protecting a white piece whom I trust.

[mccollins]

There is a black pawn in D6 who could attack me turn 1, for the sake of helping to form a COT, I ask that you do not attack me. I'm willing to be scanned and I think we have some momentum vs. the wolves. If I get attacked by that black pawn, I would assume that he/she is a wolf. Pawn in D6, I am not attacking you at all either but will be moving past you/next to you in turn 2.

You can still move on turn 1. E6 is a legal Knight move square for Qwik (D4).

[Qwikshot]

From the rules, the Knights have to submit a player name and not the piece name.

In addition, it appears that Pass has clarified that if the player being scanned is in the Knight's range (adjacent or in a legal Knight move square) then they will receive a scan result. Thus, the timing doesn't matter.

Yeah, I need names not pieces...just one name mind you...that is near me...

[st.cronin]

Thus, the timing doesn't matter.

I think the timing does matter. If Qwik were to move before somebody moved into his starting line of sight, I don't think it would work. Qwik says he's not moving, though, so that shouldn't matter.

[mccollins]

I think the timing does matter. If Qwik were to move before somebody moved into his starting line of sight, I don't think it would work. Qwik says he's not moving, though, so that shouldn't matter.

Right on both counts (I think).

[jeheinz72]

So by my count we have

Black: King, 2 Knights, Rook, 4 pawns
White: King, 2 Bishops, 1 Knight, 2 Rooks, 6 pawns

After Anx's likely lynch tonight, White would be looking at a worst-case scenario of this (not counting board kills as I don't have a good enough view to know what the heck is goin' on there but given the pieces in play I can't imagine white is in a more precarious board situation than black is)

Black: King, Knight, Rook, 4 pawns
White: King, Bishop (assuming wolves 86 the best possible white piece), knight, 2 rooks, 6 pawns

I have to say to my white uncleared folks who are ok with trucing with Black, why?

I mean I like Qwik and I appreciate him finding a wolf, much less a black wolf, but the best move for any white villager is that of agression against the black team, hoping to beat the wolves to the punch.

From a chess scenario, we have a big-time upperhand. Also the rook who is out there can't protect the King (I tried and Pass pointed out the rule I had missed that I can't do that) so why aren't we going for Neon when we have a severe upper-hand?

[st.cronin]

Heinz, the simple answer is that I believe if we move against black and ignore the wolves, the wolves will win. I don't think it will be difficult for them to win, either.

[PurdueBrad]

JEHeinz, I guess right now for me, things are two fold. I'm going to try and continue to advance to strengthen my piece and, selfishly, I would like to be cleared. I'm willing to take one night for the second happen because it's not like I'm going into a complete stall here.

[PurdueBrad]

Let postscript all of that by saying though, I'm learning as quickly as I can about chess to play better in this game but I'm still mostly clueless from that standpoint.

[jeheinz72]

JEHeinz, I guess right now for me, things are two fold. I'm going to try and continue to advance to strengthen my piece and, selfishly, I would like to be cleared. I'm willing to take one night for the second happen because it's not like I'm going into a complete stall here.

But aren't you not moving?

[PurdueBrad]

But aren't you not moving?

I'm not moving in turn/phase 1, I am moving in turn/phase 2.

[jeheinz72]

Heinz, the simple answer is that I believe if we move against black and ignore the wolves, the wolves will win. I don't think it will be difficult for them to win, either.

Well you and NTN are the two people I trust most at this point as having a common goal as me (of course if Anx comes back somehow villager, which I don't think he will, you and qwik would be next).

I trust Neon and Qwik in an anti-wolf way, but with the said, I only win in one manner, kill the Black King. Whether there are 0 wolves or 5 wolves when my team does it, I know we have to do that to win.

I certainly don't think one would say Black is favored in a chess standpoint right now. Plus, if we wanted I can park myself in a blocking spot in front of Neon and just permanently block myself from board attacks, ergo with their little manpower I'd think it nearly impossible for them to get to NTN with me largely in the way.

So that leaves White vs the Wolves. Let's say we eradicate, or nearly eradicate black, and it's Neon and a black piece against 4-5 white pieces. I think that's a gambit we can win. Ergo our thought that it's the white wolves who are happy with not going after black. Hence my suspicions about PB and those who are suggesting to make some sort of truce.

[jeheinz72]

I'm not moving in turn/phase 1, I am moving in turn/phase 2.

Ok, I missed that.

[st.cronin]

Heinz, you can't protect yourself from WOLF attacks.

[PurdueBrad]

Yeah, so I guess I'm not suggesting so much of a truce but Qwik can actually help clear some of our team and we can still advance pieces. In all honesty, between leaving myself vulnerable to Qwik, to their black pawn, and to the wolves knowing that I'll be the likely scan, I envision numerous ways that I won't get through till tomorrow. That being said, as a pawn, that's basically my role anyway and I'll take that chance for a white team victory. And as I said, I'm not in a complete stall, tactically speaking I'm still working towards getting my piece to the end line and promoting (right word?) to a better piece.

[jeheinz72]

Heinz, you can't protect yourself from WOLF attacks.

I know. But I can from board attacks, and frankly if I'm doing my part to protect a king (and I'm not cleared) I don't think I'd make much sense to be wolf killed, frankly.

The wolves need to extend the chess game, that much is clear. They'd be counterproductive to that to kill a white piece that not only isn't advancing (though I will if you don't like this plan) but is actually playing defense in the chess game.

So long as I'm playing D and I'm a lynch possibility, my guess is they'd have other fish in the sea.

[jeheinz72]

Yeah, so I guess I'm not suggesting so much of a truce but Qwik can actually help clear some of our team and we can still advance pieces. In all honesty, between leaving myself vulnerable to Qwik, to their black pawn, and to the wolves knowing that I'll be the likely scan, I envision numerous ways that I won't get through till tomorrow. That being said, as a pawn, that's basically my role anyway and I'll take that chance for a white team victory. And as I said, I'm not in a complete stall, tactically speaking I'm still working towards getting my piece to the end line and promoting (right word?) to a better piece.

Yeah that makes a bit more sense now. I had just missed the part where you had said you were doing a delayed move.

[The Jackal]

FYI I'll be gone from 1:30-3:30ish, but as soon as I get back I'll post my scan result.

[Narcizo]

I severely doubt McCollins is a wolf. Look at the day one vote. A wolf with 4 votes would not put his votes on a fellow wolf. As it turns out, with 2 other pawns having their vote on Hoops, hoops would have been lynched anyway but there's no way for McCollins to know that at the time. He knows PB's vote isn't a danger but he doesn't know who the other pawns are. Leaving a four votes on Hoopsguy would be an insane risk to take for no reason. If the wolves wanted a vote on Hoops they'd leave Anxiety's or AN Other's on him. I say scan PB.

But call me Mr Suspicious if Qwik miraculously unearths a wolf with his first scan.

[Narcizo]

Also Cronin, in light of last night's vote how do you feel your plan of putting pressure on the UTR players is working out in terms of helping the white village win? We got lucky that NTN was the king yesterday and he duked to a black piece. And that we managed to lynch Lathum as well.

[st.cronin]

Narc, assuming Anxiety comes up wolf, I think we look at white for the other two wolves. UTR strategy gets replaced with something more concrete. I'm actually guessing Render, and either you or Heinz. Possibly Jackal.

[Qwikshot]

I will stay...is there emphasis on scanning someone?

[Qwikshot]

btw

Sorry Anxiety but this has to be done

Vote Anxiety

[st.cronin]

Qwik, PurdueBrad has stated that he's in your line of sight. He might be the safest choice.

[jeheinz72]

I will stay...is there emphasis on scanning someone?

I really think any unscanned person you know is within range is a good idea. The main thing I'd think is making sure you get a read, by it wolf or villager (for our growing COT).

[PurdueBrad]

I will stay...is there emphasis on scanning someone?

There seems to be strong support, or at least some support, to scanning me. It comes from Heinz, mccollins, Narcizo, and myself. Now, IF I am night-killed, I would look at those very same people for a wolf because it would make sense to push for my scan publicly as a means of clearing me and then kill me so that the scan matters not. OR my bigger fear is that Qwik gets night-killed and it looks like I was trying to avoid the scan, it would be a good way to drive suspicion towards me. Just thinking this through and out loud.

[PurdueBrad]

Cronin agrees with scanning me as well.

[jeheinz72]

I have no problem with a PB scan.

I myself am moving to a location which should put me in range of qwik as fast as I can.

[PurdueBrad]

Again, note that I have said that I will not attempt to capture any black pieces tonight either. I've asked that the black pawn near me not attempt a capture and I am asking that Qwik not attempt a capture. My moves have been publicly stated, I'm moving both my pieces forward.

IF I am captured at either spot white team, I say we vote off the black piece that does so the next day.

IF I capture one of their pieces, I say vote me off because that would be very wolfish

IF no capture happens, I think this helps our COT.

[RendeR]

Ok, after reading the last few pages I'm really getting a bad feeling about something. Its not guaranteed that the wolves are split evenly, it would be logical, but because it WOULD be logical, I don't believe its a fact. I really don't like the way Cronin and Quickshot are openly and somewhat smugly working together on things. its making my wolf-radar go freaking nuts. The scenario in my mind: Cronin and Quick are both wolves working together to clear Cronin and gain trust for him, this would mean 3 black wolves and 1 white one (assuming 4 total). Maybe I'm bonkers, maybe my Cronin-paranoia has returned.... Then again, maybe we're being played so openly we're not seeing the forest for the trees? thoughts?

[st.cronin]

I am a bit worried about last minute shenanigans, given that white villagers aren't enough of a voting block to get Anxiety.

[PurdueBrad]

Ok, after reading the last few pages I'm really getting a bad feeling about something. Its not guaranteed that the wolves are split evenly, it would be logical, but because it WOULD be logical, I don't believe its a fact. I really don't like the way Cronin and Quickshot are openly and somewhat smugly working together on things. its making my wolf-radar go freaking nuts. The scenario in my mind: Cronin and Quick are both wolves working together to clear Cronin and gain trust for him, this would mean 3 black wolves and 1 white one (assuming 4 total). Maybe I'm bonkers, maybe my Cronin-paranoia has returned.... Then again, maybe we're being played so openly we're not seeing the forest for the trees? thoughts?

RendeR, I'm wondering some of the same things as well which is why I'm willing, basically to offer myself as the guinea pig or sacrificial lamb (depending on how things go tonight). I'm a pawn, already weakened some, so I pose very little threat and, honestly, very little value so I figure it's best that I be the test monkey here. The way this plays out will be important to gauging who's interests lay where.

[PurdueBrad]

I am a bit worried about last minute shenanigans, given that white villagers aren't enough of a voting block to get Anxiety.

We have 6 pawns PLUS a piece advantage, how don't we have enough of a block?

[RendeR]

weird, I had lots of line breaks in that post....

[Qwikshot]

The Chickenman it is....or is the Boilermaker man...

[PurdueBrad]

It's the Boilermaker man, so you'll scan the black and gold running through my veins in addition to both my white and villager exterior.

[Qwikshot]

I'm not making an attack on anyone...I can't speak for the pawns...

I'll scan PurdueBrad...

[Qwikshot]

I'd recommend someone to Jackal as well...

[PurdueBrad]

I don't know if I can pull off what I did yesterday which was lecture and be on at deadline but I should be on here for the next forty to forty-five minutes.

[mccollins]

PB, if Sonic Youth is the other black pawn and he's asleep in Australia, he could've already put the order in to capture you with no way to cancel that order.

I would suggest moving E5 to E6 on turn 1 so you don't get captured since E6 is a place Qwik (D4) can scan (it's a knight move square).

[st.cronin]

We have 6 pawns PLUS a piece advantage, how don't we have enough of a block?

If either of the white pawns is a wolf, the best case scenario is black villagers + wolves = white villagers. Here's the math:

8 white pieces, 5 black pieces, including 1 pawn, so a total of 8 votes. To that 8 votes, add 2 white pieces, now its 10 votes. White villagers then have 6 pieces, possibly including as many 6 pawns, for 10 votes.

This is assuming white has 2 wolves, which may not be true. Its also assuming black and the wolves can coordinate their vote, which I am not sure how that's possible except through signals in the thread.

[jeheinz72]

I'd recommend someone to Jackal as well...

Is that possible? BK, you, Anxiety, Jackal are the knights correct?

[PurdueBrad]

PB, if Sonic Youth is the other black pawn and he's asleep in Australia, he could've already put the order in to capture you with no way to cancel that order.

I would suggest moving E5 to E6 on turn 1 so you don't get captured since E6 is a place Qwik (D4) can scan (it's a knight move square).

Qwik, what are your feelings on this? I'll take my cue from you. It makes sense to me from a protection standpoint so I may do this.

[PurdueBrad]

We've decided that regardless of when I move from E5 to E6 or IF I make that move, that Qwik can still scan me, right?

IF you guys can verify this, I'll make a decision on what I will or won't do.

[st.cronin]

If Qwik can see you now, then he can scan you regardless of when you move.

[PurdueBrad]

If Qwik can see you now, then he can scan you regardless of when you move.

Got it, my movement or non-movement decision will be based on this information. In all honesty, I guess this will be the one thing I will keep secret for my own safety. I'm not attacking, I'm either:

staying put
or moving forward one space if open

[Qwikshot]

Is that possible? BK, you, Anxiety, Jackal are the knights correct?


I meant the group should suggest someone for him to scan...

[PurdueBrad]

Who was it that scanned St. Cronin the first time? If it was Qwik, I wouldn't mind seeing Jackal do it too, just to reaffirm. I know that sounds like overkill but I'm with RendeR on how things are playing out.

Otherwise, I wouldn't mind seeing either Mccollins or JEHeinz get scanned.

[st.cronin]

Qwik has scanned me. I think The Jackal can scan me tonight, I'll have to check my board again.

[jeheinz72]

I meant the group should suggest someone for him to scan...

I'm pretty sure we've missed that mark. I think he said he was scanning someone already and he's gone until post-deadline. I'll look now.

[jeheinz72]

FYI I'll be gone from 1:30-3:30ish, but as soon as I get back I'll post my scan result.

Yeah, we missed him.

[jeheinz72]

I'll be scanning you tonight, Render. I'm 95-100% positive you're right next to me. So we'll find out if you're a wolf or not.

Looks like he's scanning RendeR. He could scan me as well, I believe I'm right next to him starting off the evening.

[PurdueBrad]

<-------- Anxious. I think I know how those guys in the shark cages on the Discovery Channel feel.

[st.cronin]

Looking at the board, I don't think it would be possible for The Jackal to scan me tonight, unless he moved to exactly the right spot. I think he's probably scanning RendeR, just based on where he is on the board.

[jeheinz72]

Quiet deadline, not that surprising...

[st.cronin]

Did everybody vote? I don't think Abe or Neon voted.

[jeheinz72]

I have no idea. I guess it doesn't matter for Abe realistically.

[Narcizo]

Order deadline passed Pass?

[Passacaglia]

Order deadline passed Pass?

Yep. I'm not going to do an official vote count, but cronin had it right -- Anxiety and Neon did not vote.

[jeheinz72]

Write up coming soon? I ask b/c I'm already 5 minutes late on leaving for the weekend :)

[Passacaglia]

The Pieces are in an uncanny agreeance today. Black and White unite even moreso today, upon the suggestion of the daring Qwikshot, who uses his keen detective skills to to deduce that Anxiety is a wolf and must be lynched. Elementary. Anxiety howls as he is strung up. Anxiety was a Black Knight and a wolf! Night passes by with one minor scuffle, that seems to have consisted of nothing more than some shouting. However, when you wake up, you find that the wolves have earned revenge upon poor Qwikshot, killing him and leaving his pipe stuck in an unfortunate place. Qwikshot was a Black Knight!

[st.cronin]

That seems like a dumb move by the wolves.

[jeheinz72]

That move is...strange.

[PurdueBrad]

I'm actually surprised somebody didn't guard him since I figured he was the obvious night kill. Although since I thought that, maybe that makes me dumb too.

[Narcizo]

Not what I was expecting at all, I have to admit.

[Narcizo]

In the minor understatement of the year.

[mccollins]

That seems like a dumb move by the wolves.

Although, knowing one of their wolf brethren was about to be outed no matter what, maybe it isn't surprising.

[st.cronin]

So there are only 3 black pieces left, right? Neon, 4 pawns, and a rook?

[jeheinz72]

Well I'm out for the weekend, leaving on a confused note. I'll catch up on the weekend stuff Monday AM.

[mccollins]

I'm confused - why wouldn't people expect the wolves to kill a seer?

And why didn't one of the rooks bodyguard Qwik? Perhaps they're wolves as well (or not paying attention)?

[Passacaglia]

All PMs have been sent out. Day 5 ends Monday 3 PM. Happy Mothers' Day!

[st.cronin]

One wouldn't expect the wolves to kill a black piece. There's only 3 black pieces left, now.

[PurdueBrad]

I'm confused - why wouldn't people expect the wolves to kill a seer?

And why didn't one of the rooks bodyguard Qwik? Perhaps they're wolves as well (or not paying attention)?

These are the exact right questions and I'm surprised that others are surprised.

[st.cronin]

Waiting for The Jackal's results before I post my thoughts.

[mccollins]

So there are only 3 black pieces left, right? Neon, 4 pawns, and a rook?

Correct.

White has King, 2 Rooks, 2 Bishops, Knight, 6 pawns.

[mccollins]

One wouldn't expect the wolves to kill a black piece. There's only 3 black pieces left, now.

But one would always expect a wolf to kill a knight, irrespective of color, since they are the only means we have to find wolves besides lynches. Let's hope Jackal is a villager and can help us out.

Good Rook(s): I'd bodyguard Jackal if you can (I don't know from what type of attack though) until we figure more out.

[st.cronin]

Actually, now that I think about it, killing Qwik makes a certain amount of sense. We were pretty unlikely to lynch a black piece today, so taking him off the board maximizes our candidates.

[The Jackal]

Just got back. Render came back as a wolf. I realize there probably won't be much discussion over the weekend, but there you have it.

Vote RendeR

[The Jackal]

and oh yeah...

GO FLYERS!

[mccollins]

That confirms Cronin's suspicion that his partner is a wolf. If RendeR is a villager, then Jackal is next. I'd say Cronin, but Qwikshot verifying that he's a villager and then Qwikshot being a villager clears him in my book.

Vote RendeR

[st.cronin]

Ok: I believe either Jackal or Render is a wolf, but I recommend White not vote off anybody on our side, and focus on mating Neon. White controls the vote, unless the White wolves vote with black - in which case their allegiance will be known.

2. The Jackal - White Knight
3. mccollins - White Pawns?
5. jeheinz72 - White Rook?
6. st.cronin - White Bishop
9. Narcizo - White Rook?
10. PurdueBrad - White Pawns
11. RendeR - White Bishop
14. oliegirl - Black Rook?
15. ntndeacon - White King
18. Sonic Youth - Black Pawns?
19. Neon_Chaos - Black King

These are my guesses. I think white should be trying to vote off the black rook today, and the black pawns tomorrow. Even if the wolves pick off two white pieces, we should still be able to mate Neon and win.

Jackal, I think you should reconsider your vote.

VOTE OLIEGIRL

[st.cronin]

Guys, Qwikshot being killed changes the whole game. The wolves are no longer capable of stopping us. Don't vote for a wolf, vote for somebody on Black.

[st.cronin]

Also, Fog of War helps Black at this point, so White needs to openly share board information, in order to coordinate the checkmate.

Here's mine:

8
7
6
5
4 BP
3
2 (C) (N)
1 (R)
A B C D E F G H

(R) = Render, White Bishop
(N) = ntndeacon, White King
(C) = me, White Bishop
BP = Black Pawn

[The Jackal]

Interesting idea cronin, it does make sense.. but how do we know how many wolves are left? I know people have said it'd make sense for Pass to balance two wolves on each side (now that we know at least two black pieces were wolves), but that'd make 4 wolves out of 20 players, and that's kind of a big disadvantage for the wolves, even with the possibility of players being removed through chess moves.

I'll consider it, but right now I like the idea of getting rid of a wolf. We'd still be in very strong position to eliminate black.

[st.cronin]

We don't know how many wolves are left, Jackal, but even if we assume that all remaining wolves are WHITE, it still makes no sense to vote for somebody on the white team. If you want to think that there may be another wolf on the black side, all the more reason to vote black.

Black went down 2 pieces last deadline. The wolves can't counter our overwhelming board advantage, no matter which side they're on, and we don't care if they're still around when the game is over - we want to mate Neon.

[st.cronin]

Interesting idea cronin, it does make sense.. but how do we know how many wolves are left? I know people have said it'd make sense for Pass to balance two wolves on each side (now that we know at least two black pieces were wolves), but that'd make 4 wolves out of 20 players, and that's kind of a big disadvantage for the wolves, even with the possibility of players being removed through chess moves.

I'll consider it, but right now I like the idea of getting rid of a wolf. We'd still be in very strong position to eliminate black.

This is wrong - if we vote off Render, and then they night kill you, black is back in the game.

[st.cronin]

dola, what I mean is, we need to use the vote to keep our board advantage. The wolves have handed us this game - we just need to press our advantage.

[The Jackal]

Not if a rook protects me - but I have an option c.

We control the vote, pretty much, there's enough of us with between 1-4 votes that we could tie the vote, knocking off a wolf and a black piece. Seem doable?

[mccollins]

I'll unvote to consider things over the weekend:
Unvote RendeR

However, if we don't finish getting the wolves then we run the risk of them nightkilling our pieces prepared to take the black King and preventing us from finishing that task. Especially if we start sharing board information publicly.

I need to hear more from the white Rooks.

[mccollins]

This is wrong - if we vote off Render, and then they night kill you, black is back in the game.

With a rook and 4 pawns? I dunno about that. If nothing else, I'd rather vote off the 4 pawns before the rook.

[st.cronin]

Not if a rook protects me - but I have an option c.

We control the vote, pretty much, there's enough of us with between 1-4 votes that we could tie the vote, knocking off a wolf and a black piece. Seem doable?

No, we don't want to mess with that, it gives black and the wolves a chance to mess with the vote.

Worst case scenario for white: We lynch the black rook tonight, one of the white rooks is night killed. We lynch the black pawns tomorrow, the other white rook is night killed. The game will then be:

White - 2 Bishops, Knight, 6 Pawns, King
Black - King

Even if both you and Render are wolves, we still will be able to turn that into a mate - and based on board movement done in the open, it should be crystal clear who on the white team is playing to WIN, and who is working for the wolves.

[st.cronin]

Trying to vote off a white wolf is just ASKING for trouble. Suppose The Jackal is the wolf, and Render is a villager? Then we are going to spend the next two days voting off white pieces, making the board neutral again. EVEN IF RENDER IS A WOLF, voting him off leaves a powerful Black presence on the board, and pisses away our advantage.

[mccollins]

We lynch the black rook tonight, one of the white rooks is night killed. We lynch the black pawns tomorrow, the other white rook is night killed.

I still think one of the white rooks could be a wolf.

I think the wolves can screw with the chess game and hurt us just as bad as with nightkills. And how many turns will it take to get the black king? Every additional turn is an extra night kill unless the rooks are good and coordinated at bodyguarding (they weren't last night!).

With a villager (Qwik) scanning you as a villager, you're basically cleared Cronin, but I'm not bought into this plan yet.

[mccollins]

I've got to leave - help me here - what was the reason we thought Jackal was good?

[st.cronin]

Let me make it as clear as possible. This is the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE if we follow my plan.

There are three black pieces left. Today we lynch the Rook. One of the White rooks is night killed. We will still have complete coordination of our movements, and tomorrow our pieces - 1 king, 1 rook, 2 bishops, 6 pawns, 1 knight - will be arrayed against 4 pawns and 1 king. Tomorrow we lynch the pawns. Our other rook is night-killed. We will have, at that point, 1 king, 2 bishops, 6 pawns and 1 knight arrayed against a king. Its true that some of those pieces will be controlled by wolves, but they won't be able to board-kill us, they'll just be able to not follow whatever plan we put together.

Seriously, only a white wolf would NOT want to follow this plan.

[st.cronin]

I've got to leave - help me here - what was the reason we thought Jackal was good?

There is no reason to think Jackal is good. That's why we can't vote for anybody on the white team.

[st.cronin]

Actually, now that I think about it, we should vote off the black pawns today, to remove the additional voting power.

UNVOTE OLIEGIRL
VOTE SONIC YOUTH

[st.cronin]

Any known white player who doesn't vote for Sonic Youth, I will assume is a wolf. Also all white players, please share your board info - we can coordinate our movements against black that way.

[The Jackal]

I see where cronin is going with this, and I'll seriously consider voting for Sonic, but I'm not convinced we shouldn't take out a wolf, even if it is a white piece.

[oliegirl]

Hey guys, I'm home...had to take my son back to the dr, he started spiking a high fever and I couldn't get it down - they sent us to the local Childrens Hospital Immediate Care and gave him an IV of antibiotics and fluids and now he is better...but I've been gone for the last 6 hours. I didn't get my night action in, so I stayed where I was and didn't guard anyone...I'm the black rook, I was PM partner with Hoopsguy. I'm sorry I didn't get my order in to block Qwik, I was going to but then had to leave in a rush and quite honestly, just forgot. Anyway, I'm sorry...I'll be around over the weekend, though I'm sure it will be quiet so I can answer any questions you have.

[PurdueBrad]

St. Cronin, I'm torn and am going back and forth. Here is what I will do:

vote Sonic Youth

That makes more sense in terms of controlling the board (4 pieces off) and heavy voting power against white. Also, you're right, basically anybody that doesn't vote this way will probably get themselves lynched the next night as a wolf.

St. Cronin, as for locations, as the pawn, black can basically see me so I guess there isn't much harm for me since they know I'm a pawn anyway. I'm at A6, E6 and I have picked up my super, deluxe extra-special pawnny power (and so has my partner but he didn't use it and I forgot to remind him to use it). The black rook is at C8 and there is a black pawn at D6 still. I know where some white pawns are but don't want to out their locations or my partner's id w/o consent.

[Sonic Youth]

Damn, now we have no reason to hide roles. Damn CR and his not taking my suggestion and then using it earlier in the game. AH well.

So, who to vote for? This makes things tricky.

To those who don't think white will be troubled by a wolf, then St.Cronin hasn't thought it through all the way through, as easily it makes sense for either a white rook or the pawns will be wolf killed tonight. If they aren't wolves to begin with. Voting black won't stop that.

Vote RendeR.

[Sonic Youth]

Damn.

Vote RendeR.

[Sonic Youth]

I know where some white pawns are but don't want to out their locations or my partner's id w/o consent.

It doesn't matter, as only two of his can move, White Pawns are in D5, F6, and H5. At least I can see. I'd imagine that there is one in B5 or B6 too. What matters is that a few of them are close to getting to the end. Hence I'd be expecting wolf activity with them tonight. I can also imagine that people will now make use of me using all these wolf references. Remember night one everyone? Why would I do that? Kwhit would have been right with his trust if he had of survived. I was actually expecting it to be one of us that night.

[Sonic Youth]

Actually,

Unvote RendeR.
Vote St.Cronin.

[Sonic Youth]

So how many wolves are left in this game? I'd say they are all on white. Now here's the thing, Wolves only need to still be alive with the Kings to win. That leaves, what? 2 nights to vote off black? Yes? In that time 4 villager players will go I'd imagine. Or at least 3 of them That leaves 4 players. One night, and depending on who's left will mean they effectively can control the vote. You want to vote for me? Be careful about who you vote for tonight. A vote for me will be exactly what the wolves will want.

[The Jackal]

Sonic, if you're going to vote for a white piece (obviously), you might as well vote for the wolf, because I don't think anyone on white is going to vote for cronin.

[Sonic Youth]

And that is RendeR?

[The Jackal]

And that is RendeR?

Well I mean he's the only confirmed wolf. Cronin could be a wolf too, I guess. I'm not trying to help black by voting off a wolf.. but I guess it's going to look like that if most of white follows cronin's plan.

[The Jackal]

So how many wolves are left in this game? I'd say they are all on white.

BTW I agree with this, I think it's most likely the wolves left are white. I see what cronin is trying to do, make the wolves irrelevant by continuing to vote off black pieces since we have the piece advantage, and eventually checkmate Neon, but the wolves haven't been over-present and I can't shake the feeling that they are controlling things here. I still really don't think cronin is a wolf, especially with Qwik's clear, which is why I'm pretty willing to follow his plan, I just want to make sure it's not misguided.

[RendeR]

I see where cronin is going with this, and I'll seriously consider voting for Sonic, but I'm not convinced we shouldn't take out a wolf, even if it is a white piece.

I'm convinced You are a wolf, because I know I'm not one. 2 knights being wolves? Makes a lot of sense from a game balance point of view, there would only be 2 GOOD seers in that case, as I assume the wolf-knights can't actually scan (what would be the purpose?) Is there anything in the rules about a FOOL role? Otherwise we've pegged wolf three. Jackal is a wolf, I guarentee it.

[Chief Rum]

Damn, now we have no reason to hide roles. Damn CR and his not taking my suggestion and then using it earlier in the game. AH well.

So, who to vote for? This makes things tricky.

To those who don't think white will be troubled by a wolf, then St.Cronin hasn't thought it through all the way through, as easily it makes sense for either a white rook or the pawns will be wolf killed tonight. If they aren't wolves to begin with. Voting black won't stop that.

Vote RendeR.

Huh? What suggestion?

[The Jackal]

I'm convinced You are a wolf, because I know I'm not one. 2 knights being wolves? Makes a lot of sense from a game balance point of view, there would only be 2 GOOD seers in that case, as I assume the wolf-knights can't actually scan (what would be the purpose?) Is there anything in the rules about a FOOL role? Otherwise we've pegged wolf three. Jackal is a wolf, I guarentee it.

At least a wolf finally made a defense. I realize two knight wolves make sense in sense of balance purposes, but giving the wolves 2 out of the 4 pieces that can identify them is kind of silly. And I didn't see anything about a fool role. I have no reason to think I'm a fool..

[The Jackal]

PS RendeR it seems like cronin doesn't want to lynch you anyways, and some of white is already willing to follow him, so I don't think you have much to worry about.

[The Jackal]

PSS no one has answered my query about game times, AND the flyers lost.

[The Jackal]

Huh? What suggestion?

who knows what he was talking about, darn aussies

talking to myself is sad

[Neon_Chaos]

:)

Vote st.cronin

[st.cronin]

Even Black recognizes the wisdom of my plan, else why would they be trying to vote me off?

[ntndeacon]

Vote Sonic Youth

[RendeR]

At least a wolf finally made a defense. I realize two knight wolves make sense in sense of balance purposes, but giving the wolves 2 out of the 4 pieces that can identify them is kind of silly. And I didn't see anything about a fool role. I have no reason to think I'm a fool.. I understand I have nothing to clear me, and its your word vs mine, but I am not a wolf. I have no reason as yet to believe cronin is either, we've shared information freely between us and I thought someone cleared Cronin already but I could be mistaken. There are only two reasons for a false claim of me being a wolf: A: You are a wolf B: You are a Fool role and gets everything backwards.

[RendeR]

I can't seem to post with any line breaks in my text and the editors are not working for me either. Anyone ever had this happen before?

[The Jackal]

I can't seem to post with any line breaks in my text and the editors are not working for me either. Anyone ever had this happen before?

I've had that happen in quick reply before

[The Jackal]

I understand I have nothing to clear me, and its your word vs mine, but I am not a wolf. I have no reason as yet to believe cronin is either, we've shared information freely between us and I thought someone cleared Cronin already but I could be mistaken. There are only two reasons for a false claim of me being a wolf: A: You are a wolf B: You are a Fool role and gets everything backwards.

Well I'm not a wolf either, I guess I could be a fool. And the black pieces aren't even voting for you.. I guess I'll probably switch to SY eventually.

[mccollins]

According to the rules, there is no fool in the game.

At least one of RendeR or Jackal is a lying wolf.

[st.cronin]

According to the rules, there is no fool in the game.

At least one of RendeR or Jackal is a lying wolf.

I agree, but it doesn't matter. Whichever one isn't a wolf isn't the LAST wolf, and they can't execute more than one night kill.

[The Jackal]

Alright cronin, let's give your plan a shot.

unvote RendeR

vote SY

[st.cronin]

Only one person (PurdueBrad, I think) has shared board info, which we'll need to do to mate Neon. Here's with the update:

8 BR
7
6 WP BP WP
5
4 BP
3
2 (C) (N)
1 (R)
A B C D E F G H

[Sonic Youth]

Even Black recognizes the wisdom of my plan, else why would they be trying to vote me off?Wisdom? It's only half there. I think your gifting the wolves, which is fine by me if you want white to lose. If I'm voted off, you'll see a white player night killed. If you then vote another black player off, there goes another white player. How many wolves to white players minus the kings will that leave? I see your wisdom as half baked. Still, voted me off and you'll see. Even if you vote me off and go for a wolf next time, your not leaving much chance to win for white.

[The Jackal]

Here I'll present some calculations in both response to what SY said and for white to think about. Right now we have 11 players left, 3 black and 8 white. Let's subtract two straight black lynches and two white night kills. Then it's one black king vs one white king and five white pieces. Say out of those five pieces, two are wolves. Neon would need to avoid capture for 3 extra turns after all his other pieces have been eliminated, and with the likely possibility of one or more of our pawns reaching the other side and changing into queens, I think this game might be in the bag.

Plus we've always got the safety of voting off the wolf (I have no reason to think I'm a fool, really) instead of voting no lynch once the black pieces are gone, if we're worried the wolves have any chance left. I think you're in trouble, SY.

[The Jackal]

BTW I can see RendeR, NTN, and one of our rooks.

[Alan T]

I can't seem to post with any line breaks in my text and the editors are not working for me either. Anyone ever had this happen before?

Do you use firefox with no-script?

I've noticed recently all kinds of things breaking for me on the forum with no-script, where it did not use to. If I allow the board to run scripts, all of those things work as they used to prior to whatever changed on the board recently. What you describe are some of the issues I ran into recently. (I've run no-script for a while, it only recently started causing issues like this for me)

If the answer is yes, just temporarily allowe gamespy to run scripts.

[Narcizo]

Well this is all very interesting. Let's see. We know Qwik is a villager so.... Everyone seems agreed that there are two white wolves left. Who's available? Render, Jackal, st.cronin, Heinz, PurdueBrad, McCollins and myself.

He [Anxiety] wanted to target clap and narc and purduebrad...


Phew! That's PB and, most importantly, me in the clear. Anxiety isn't going to target a wolf to save a villager.

St. Cronin is not a wolf.


There's cronin out of the picture as well.

So who do we have left? Render, Jackal, Heinz and McCollins. We know Jackal or Render is a wolf so that leaves Heinz and McCollins as the wolves left. Day one voting points very, very strongly in favour of Heinz being the wolf. Would McCollins really leave 4 votes on a fellow wolf with the possibility that one of the other people with a vote on the wolf is a pawn? I find it very, very hard to believe. Meanwhile Heinz had what has to be classified as a high-suspect late vote switch to KWhit. (of course, so did I as I pointed out at the time).

So there we have our wolves. Heinz and Jackal/Render.

[Narcizo]

Only fooling with you heinzy. :p

I'm making the point that assumptions can be dangerous. I'm assuming that there are two white wolves left. I'm assuming that Anxiety was telling the truth when he told Qwik that he was targeting PB or me. I'm assuming that Qwik was telling the truth about cronin not being a wolf. I'm assuming that Jackal and Render can't both be wolves and I'm assuming that a pawn wouldn't vote for a fellow wolf on day one.

Although, I have to admit, that once I began typing it up it started to make more sense to me. And I'm one to talk, I've been making a lot of (pretty big) assumptions of my own throughout the game. As Heinz can testify.

[Narcizo]

Sonic, see if you can help me out here. Let's face it, your side has lost so there's no reason for you to help me. Just depends if you want to potentially help find a wolf or not.

I've been rereading. Looking at the way the day developed on day two I'm assuming (see! I'm doing it again) KWhit thought he was white (I know that was the assumption I was drawing at the time - judging by the way he backed off of cronin and moved lynch Chief Rum). For that to be the case I can assume that all the pawns moved forward on day one (otherwise you would have noticed that there was a rook missing - hoops). Do you have the records of the knights' moves and do you want share them? As you're controlling 4 pawns (I think, spread across the board - I'm not going to bother explaining why I think that - a lot of evidence points that way), you should have a pretty good idea of black movement in the first three moves or so. I'm not asking for you to reveal pawn movement - just knight movement. Can't say that I blame you if you don't want to do it though.

[Neon_Chaos]

When the white pawns are night-killed, the wolves will most likely win.

[Narcizo]

Barring white finding the wolves I was thinking that as well, but having reread the rules (I can't believe I missed it) I don't necessarily think that's the case. I think we actually have a decent shot at capturing you even with two wolves around. It would be much more preferable if we could find the wolves though.

[Narcizo]

While I'm waiting for Sonic. You see I'm at a loss here. I believed that voting off Sonic was the way forward today but I've also been believing that cronin was a wolf. (I'll go into that later) So when cronin says that the way for us to win is to vote off Sonic and try to win the game on the board I naturally feel like there's a catch.

But I'm not sure there is. My current assumption is that the run of events will be
Lynch Sonic - Night Kill Me/Heinz/Mccollins (you either want to take out the bodyguard or the person who owns the most pawns, discovered by PB's reveal of his piece's position).
Lynch OlieGirl - Night Kill one of the rooks or one of the pawns.
So that leaves us with either a bishop or a knight (judging from the way Jackal has been playing off of cronin over the weekend I'm guessing Render is the villager there, but I'm not sure of that) and a combination of 1 or 2 rooks and whatever pawns that have made it past Neon and haven't been night killed. I think the pawns are the natural target for cronin (which is why he mentioned the wolves killing the rooks). So we probably have two rooks and a bishop trying to capture Neon. Let's be generous to Heinz/me and say that we finally manage a block. Then we have a queen or two, two rooks and a bishop trying to capture Neon. If we can line up the two rooks-rook/queen combo, then we sweep across. Assuming the two rooks are able to get in a position to do that. I think we have an ok shot at hitting Neon but it isn't great to be honest.

If Heinz or I haven't managed to get a block by this stage then I personally think cronin gets cold feet at this stage and allows Jackal to "convince" him that it's better to lynch Render than follow through the plan. Now, hopefully, that option is closed to him. However there is another option. What if OlieGirl turns out to be a wolf? Well, then you lynch Render because there must only be four wolves in play. Night kill, lynch Jackal and cronin wins the game. If that's what's happening here then I've stopped that from happening now as well.

Now you're all probably thinking I'm a wolf (even you Heinz). I can understand that. Cronin has stated that anyone not following his plan is a wolf, I've come in babbled some rubbish about not making any assumptions, waited for hours (I've been working for most of it, but I have been thinking about the situation as well) and then come out with this. I'd find it suspicious. But if you're set on cronin's plan then you'd better hope that I'm not a wolf because your chances of success decrease dramatically (depending on which of heinz or I is the wolf bodyguard).

Say neither cronin nor I are wolves. I don't know cronin is a wolf, I think there's a decent amount of stuff pointing to him being a wolf I'm not sure. Unless Jackal and RendeR are the wolves (I don't think it's likely) that means one of the pawns or Heinz is a wolf and our chances are nearly as bad as if I'm a wolf. So the best chance of this succeding is if cronin is the wolf.

So do you lynch me for pointing all this out in suspicious circumstances? Maybe. Can't say I blame you. Given my analysis of how events are going to work out (feel free to correct me if you find a flaw in it) it seems my best bet as a wolf under the circumstances would be to keep quiet. But I would say that. You know, I've displayed a degree of cunning as a wolf in one game (the one where I didn't nearly lose the game or die on the first day). So you've probably lost. Do you believe me when I say cronin is a wolf? Probably not. I don't know he's a wolf and if I'm not sure then why would you believe me? Or you vote to lynch Render running the risk that you lose control of the board to the black pieces if Jackal is the wolf (which I get a vibe is the case)?

So. There I am. Pointing out that cronin's plan isn't quite the slam dunk Jackal and he are purporting it to be.

[Neon_Chaos]

Barring white finding the wolves I was thinking that as well, but having reread the rules (I can't believe I missed it) I don't necessarily think that's the case. I think we actually have a decent shot at capturing you even with two wolves around. It would be much more preferable if we could find the wolves though.

Without the pawns, no. They are essential to white winning. Without the pawns, it would be quite impossible for white to win, specially if the wolves can manipulate two pieces on their own.

Now... if the pawns were wolves... that would be ridiculously funny.

[Narcizo]

So I'm surprised at the lack of discussion of Qwik's reveal, his subsequent actions and his death. I've been trying to make head or tail of it myself but there's something decidedly wrong with it. Last turn my assumption was that Qwik was a wolf as it seemed to be the only explanation for the whole situation.

In summing up Qwik reveals just after a lynch that sees two villagers killed that he's scanned Anxiety as a wolf on night two. Night two saw the Black Queen get lynched by white pieces so it's understandable that he's pissed off at white at the time. However he hangs onto the information until after a black villager and a piece of undecided allegiance (white as it happens, although he couldn't know that, NTN dukes to another black piece) are voted off. His argument is a bit muddled but it seems to be that he knew that Anxiety was protecting Lathum so he presumed Lathum was a wolf. He was planning on shifting his vote from clap to Lathum at the last moment to lynch him. Instead of just outing Anxiety there and then and ensuring a known wolf was lynched instead of a black piece which might have been a wolf or not. It just seems bizarre.

I was trying to kill the queen...but of course, that already occurred.

Correction, I didn't state Anx was the last wolf, just that he was one.

St. Cronin is not a wolf.

I would expect some protection..

As for why I voted clap...I was trying to go along with Anx's play but I was going to change my vote at the last minute, then the page dumped and I had to rush and do my reveal as I thought I was as good as dead with my jump...

For the record, I think Lathum and Olliegirl are wolves...but I cannot prove this.

This just seemed so contrived to me. How could Qwik possibly think he had a shot at taking Path - who could see him coming. If I could see a knight had a clear path to attack me then I'd move out phase one. (as path said he did, as it turns out). And, as QWik pointed out, he was leaving himself open to a terrible risk that he would be captured by a white piece. If I saw the white queen out in the open like that, within range of me and a possible black piece then I think I'd take the shot at moving to the queen's square on phase 8. Why would Qwik take that huge risk? He claims he thought he could be attacked but if the wolves are giving him information, judging from what I know of the board (and therefore what they must have known), he might know that he couldn't be attacked on that square.

My presumption has been that Anxiety convinced Qwik that Black didn't have a chance and he might as well take a shot at helping the wolves. Neon's as good as said that's the way he reads it. So the plan would be for Qwik to get to d4 to be able to scan cronin as good. Cronin was probably accumulating the most suspicion of all the white pieces and the wolves probably judged that he would be the prime lynch target among the white pieces.

Cronin had been very quick to both dish out trust and suspicion. The one that particularly struck me was that the white queen must be a wolf because it blocked Cronin's path to be scanned by Jackal. That but the white queen was on d4 turn 2/3. The alleged block happend on turn 2/3. Reading things correctly cronin started on c1.

Meanwhile Anxiety mentions that he's the "last wolf". That makes me really suspicious. But of course Anxiety might be playing games with us. But I can't understand why Anxiety doesn't put any sort of argument, he meekly goes along with being outed. He could at least counter it for a day and delay things that way. Maybe his message is that he's the last wolf and that Qwik is to be believed. He also mentioned that he wanted to cc Qwik along with the wolves. So that seems to mean that Anxiety was happy for Qwik to know who the wolves were. Why would Qwik have to pretend he was going to scan people?

Writing this all down has pretty much cleared this up for me though. I think I've made a massive mistake and possibly cost the white village the win. I've been mixing what Anxiety says and what Qwik says in my head and I became obsessed that cronin is a wolf and it's blinkered me and I've just adjusted my world view and all the facts so that cronin is the wolf. First Qwik must be a wolf and that means cronin must be the wolf. Then when it becomes clear that Qwik isn't the wolf, he must be a villager who wants the wolves to win. So when cronin starts saying that we have to do what he says and anyone not doing what he says must be a wolf (something I myself have done) I assume that there must be a catch. When he starts saying that the wolves will be targeting the rooks (when the pawns are the correct target in my opinion) it makes me think that this is all a plan of his. Anyway by now no one will believe me and the wolves are having a great laugh at me.

But the thing is, I think my analysis of the situation is correct. I don't think we stand a great chance of catching Neon. And if cronin is a villager as I'm trying to convince myself is the case and I'm a villager, which I know, means the plan doesn't have a great deal of chance of success. Unless the whole "last black wolf" thing was actually an attempt to cover OlieGirl (I don't think Sonic Youth - because he, like mccollins, had a four vote bloc out on Hoops on day one, with even less chance because he knew he wouldn't be able to change it around deadline).

So, in summing up. I've made a pig's ear of this.

[The Jackal]

I don't think cronin's plan is a slam dunk, I never like assuming things are going to fall a certain way when wolves are involved.

[Narcizo]

Cronin had been very quick to both dish out trust and suspicion. The one that particularly struck me was that the white queen must be a wolf because it blocked Cronin's path to be scanned by Jackal. That but the white queen was on d4 turn 2/3. The alleged block happend on turn 2/3. Reading things correctly cronin started on c1.


Sorry, didn't finish that off. For the queen to have blocked him Path must have been on d2 or e3 on that turn. Now the only way he could block him was if cronin didn't move phase 8 and I just couldn't see the sense of it if cronin genuinely wanted to get within scan-range of Jackal. Cronin must know that there's a chance that the queen would block him so the only way to avoid that happening would be to move phase 8 himself. And then accusing the Queen of blocking him just seemed ridiculous.

[Narcizo]

I don't think cronin's plan is a slam dunk, I never like assuming things are going to fall a certain way when wolves are involved.

and with the likely possibility of one or more of our pawns reaching the other side and changing into queens, I think this game might be in the bag.


I realise I have 0 credibility now but that pretty much seems to be exactly what you're saying.

[PurdueBrad]

Yeah, but for our pawns to change, they have to avoid night lynches by the wolves. I assume that the pawns make the most likely night targets because of voting power and the ability to become a stronger player.

[jeheinz72]

Ok, just got in and gave everything a once-through. For now, until I dig a little deeper into it

Vote Sonic Youth

I still have some questions about this plan but let's get it straight where I'm coming from.

[mccollins]

Vote count?

I may go with "the plan", but I think it's pretty obnoxious for Cronin to say "My idea is the best idea; no one can have ideas as good as me; if you don't agree with me then you're a wolf."

[Passacaglia]

Here's what I have:


RendeR --
oliegirl --
Sonic Youth -- st.cronin (1415), PurdueBrad (1419), ntndeacon (1437), The Jackal (1444), jeheinz72 (1462)
st.cronin -- Sonic Youth (1421), Neon_Chaos (1435)

[jeheinz72]

Vote count?

I may go with "the plan", but I think it's pretty obnoxious for Cronin to say "My idea is the best idea; no one can have ideas as good as me; if you don't agree with me then you're a wolf."

Yeah, that statement put me off as well. Like independent thought ='s wolf now? Frankly, had Cronin not been cleared by a known villager-seer I'd have voted for him on that statement in a heartbeat.

I'm still vetting the idea though. My main concern at this point is that, while we trade black lynch for white night kill, we leave white pieces who aren't going to actually help us get Neon. I mean it's a given here that one of Jackal/Render is a wolf. Whichever piece that is, isn't going to actively hunt down Neon. In fact, the opposite is true, they could actually put their piece *in the way* of me as a rook if I've got Neon lined up.

[st.cronin]

Sorry, didn't finish that off. For the queen to have blocked him Path must have been on d2 or e3 on that turn. Now the only way he could block him was if cronin didn't move phase 8 and I just couldn't see the sense of it if cronin genuinely wanted to get within scan-range of Jackal. Cronin must know that there's a chance that the queen would block him so the only way to avoid that happening would be to move phase 8 himself. And then accusing the Queen of blocking him just seemed ridiculous.

I moved phase 2. I knew where path was, and tried to clue him to move phase 1, but he didn't - I don't know why he didn't. The reason I needed to move early was because The Jackal had explicitly said he wasn't going to wait around for me to move, he was going to try to scan me, and move himself, but that he wasn't willing to coordinate.

Anyway, I think the wolves are Narcizo and RendeR.

[mccollins]

Cronin wants to remove a black team member. That is good for us, but I'd still like to remove a wolf.

With the assumption that Jackal is a villager (a tenuous assumption) and RendeR is indeed a wolf (a white bishop makes sense, but is still assuming Jackal is telling the truth), here is a vote count that would remove both from the game:

RendeR (6) -- McCollins, PurdueBrad
Sonic Youth (6) -- st.cronin, ntndeacon, The Jackal, jeheinz72, Narcizo, RendeR
st.cronin (5) -- Sonic Youth, Neon_Chaos

As Cronin already mentioned, this requires a lot of moving (and untrustworthy) pieces to remain in place so I don't know that we can make it work. But it's another plan for Cronin to shoot down as inferior to his incredible intelligence.

[Narcizo]

I think we should vote Render. If Render isn't a wolf then Jackal must be one. Then the worst case scenario is that mccollins is night killed or is a wolf. If that doesn't happen, then white still have the voting power. If he is a wolf (or he's night killed and PB is bad) then he will have to out himself to vote alongside the blacks to save Jackal. If he does that then black will never let him live. Probably the black side will win. But the wolves certainly won't. They will have revealed themselves to the black side as much as the white side. They need to stay hidden. I'm also pretty sure we can capture a black pawn this turn, cutting down the black side to 5. If Render is bad then we know that Jackal is good and he can scan someone else and we have a better chance of landing another wolf.

I say we vote Render.

Vote Render

See. Think it through.

See

[Narcizo]

A DOLAed "see"

[mccollins]

Frankly, had Cronin not been cleared by a known villager-seer I'd have voted for him on that statement in a heartbeat.


Ditto and I've had to re-check the fack that Qwik was a villager and that he said Cronin was not a wolf multiple times to believe this. It's still hard for me to believe after his tone.

[mccollins]

Narcizo, I've got to say that after you've written multiple books for us to read and be confused by this morning, you're leaning towards wolf.

With you voting for RendeR, it makes me wonder if Jackal is actually the wolf and not RendeR.

[st.cronin]

Cronin wants to remove a black team member. That is good for us, but I'd still like to remove a wolf.

With the assumption that Jackal is a villager (a tenuous assumption) and RendeR is indeed a wolf (a white bishop makes sense, but is still assuming Jackal is telling the truth), here is a vote count that would remove both from the game:

RendeR (6) -- McCollins, PurdueBrad
Sonic Youth (6) -- st.cronin, ntndeacon, The Jackal, jeheinz72, Narcizo, RendeR
st.cronin (5) -- Sonic Youth, Neon_Chaos

As Cronin already mentioned, this requires a lot of moving (and untrustworthy) pieces to remain in place so I don't know that we can make it work. But it's another plan for Cronin to shoot down as inferior to his incredible intelligence.

This is a terrible idea. We know that ONE of Render and Jackal are wolves, but its a coin flip which one is a wolf. We can't take the chance of voting off a white villager.

[jeheinz72]

Cronin wants to remove a black team member. That is good for us, but I'd still like to remove a wolf.

With the assumption that Jackal is a villager (a tenuous assumption) and RendeR is indeed a wolf (a white bishop makes sense, but is still assuming Jackal is telling the truth), here is a vote count that would remove both from the game:

RendeR (6) -- McCollins, PurdueBrad
Sonic Youth (6) -- st.cronin, ntndeacon, The Jackal, jeheinz72, Narcizo, RendeR
st.cronin (5) -- Sonic Youth, Neon_Chaos

As Cronin already mentioned, this requires a lot of moving (and untrustworthy) pieces to remain in place so I don't know that we can make it work. But it's another plan for Cronin to shoot down as inferior to his incredible intelligence.

Though I think it may be near impossible to make happen, I'd be ok with the plan of getting rid of both of them. It's a win-win, we take from the wolves and the black.

Worst-case, Jackal is lying, we still moved forward on our primary goal of mating Neon and now we know at least one piece that isn't/wasn't going to help us in that goal anyhow.

[mccollins]

Good Rook(s): I'll go ahead and beg for a bodyguard now.

[jeheinz72]

Good Rook(s): I'll go ahead and beg for a bodyguard now.

I don't think my protecting you on the board would do all that much, or as much.

[PurdueBrad]

Cronin wants to remove a black team member. That is good for us, but I'd still like to remove a wolf.

With the assumption that Jackal is a villager (a tenuous assumption) and RendeR is indeed a wolf (a white bishop makes sense, but is still assuming Jackal is telling the truth), here is a vote count that would remove both from the game:

RendeR (6) -- McCollins, PurdueBrad
Sonic Youth (6) -- st.cronin, ntndeacon, The Jackal, jeheinz72, Narcizo, RendeR
st.cronin (5) -- Sonic Youth, Neon_Chaos

As Cronin already mentioned, this requires a lot of moving (and untrustworthy) pieces to remain in place so I don't know that we can make it work. But it's another plan for Cronin to shoot down as inferior to his incredible intelligence.

Problem here is that wouldn't SY vote for Render out of self-defense? Or wouldn't Neon move to RendeR to keep a black piece from being voted off?

[mccollins]

Then I guess I'm talking to the other kind:
For each color, one Rook will be able to protect against an attack on the board, and one Rook will be able to protect against a wolf attack.

I don't know what kind Oliegirl is and if Narcizo happens to be a wolf, that doesn't help either.

[mccollins]

Problem here is that wouldn't SY vote for Render out of self-defense? Or wouldn't Neon move to RendeR to keep a black piece from being voted off?

Yeah, it's too hard to manage.

[oliegirl]

I am SO confused by this game! There is a lot more chess in it than I thought there would be...trying to keep up the best I can. Does anyone have a confirmed board they can put up with everyone's locations just so I can make sure I'm on the same page as everyone else before I cast my vote or put in my move order?

[The Jackal]

I realise I have 0 credibility now but that pretty much seems to be exactly what you're saying.

It looks like it -should- be in the bag, but no way it's a slam dunk. His plan -looks- good, but I don't know for sure it's going to win us the game. I'd certainly be willing to switch back to RendeR, I'd rather take a wolf off.

[mccollins]

Updated:

RendeR -- Narcizo (1468)
Sonic Youth -- st.cronin (1415), PurdueBrad (1419), ntndeacon (1437), The Jackal (1444), jeheinz72 (1462)
st.cronin -- Sonic Youth (1421), Neon_Chaos (1435)

[mccollins]

Left to vote: mccollins, oliegirl

[mccollins]

Vote Sonic Youth

[jeheinz72]

I think it's our only sensical move Collins, even if I abhor it's presentation and I'm not 100% sure Cronin's estimation for end-game is correct.

[Narcizo]

Ok if the majority want it then I won't split the vote.

Unvote Render
Vote Sonic Youth

Orders submitted.

[jeheinz72]

I'm almost friggin certain my partner is playing this right out of the How To Be a Wolf playbook.

No offense there pard.

[oliegirl]

VOTE SONIC YOUTH

[mccollins]

Updated:

Sonic Youth -- st.cronin (1415), PurdueBrad (1419), ntndeacon (1437), The Jackal (1444), jeheinz72 (1462), mccollins (1483), Narcizo (1485), oliegirl (1487)
st.cronin -- Sonic Youth (1421), Neon_Chaos (1435)

[jeheinz72]

RendeR hasn't voted, correct?

[mccollins]

RendeR hasn't voted, correct?

According to Pass's vote count and my updates thereof, that looks like a No. I didn't notice that.

[RendeR]

I've been waiting to see how everything played out.

Jackal is lying through his fangs. I am not a wolf. Since it appears there is no fool role that means he's literally lying to move suspicion onto me (someone most players would readily vote for)

It goes hand in hand with his casting doubt on Cronin's plan. At this point White has this game won unless we screw up and start killing whilte players off.

Sonic is already set, I'm voting what I know to be the right thing for tomorrow, today.

VOTE THE JACKAL

[Passacaglia]

Corrections, please:

RendeR --
oliegirl --
Sonic Youth -- st.cronin (1415), PurdueBrad (1419), ntndeacon (1437), The Jackal (1444), jeheinz72 (1462), mccollins (1483), Narcizo (1485), oliegirl (1487)
st.cronin -- Sonic Youth (1421), Neon_Chaos (1435)
The Jackal -- RendeR (1491)

[mccollins]

I think that's correct Pass.

[The Jackal]

I've been waiting to see how everything played out.

Jackal is lying through his fangs. I am not a wolf. Since it appears there is no fool role that means he's literally lying to move suspicion onto me (someone most players would readily vote for)

It goes hand in hand with his casting doubt on Cronin's plan. At this point White has this game won unless we screw up and start killing whilte players off.

Sonic is already set, I'm voting what I know to be the right thing for tomorrow, today.

VOTE THE JACKAL

I'm not a wolf. All I have is my scan result of you, which says you are a wolf. I haven't been trying to move suspicion on to you, I just gave people the facts, and if we didn't have an overwhelming piece advantage right now we'd be lynching you. It's not up to me what the team does tomorrow - you, or olie. Either way is fine with me, at this point.

[RendeR]

*sniff sniff* Jackal....You stink....




of WOLF.

[Passacaglia]

The unity between Black and White appears to have dissipated, as White brazenly suggests that they lynch a Black piece, not because he could be a wolf, but simply as a way to use the wolf threat for their own gain. Sonic Youth is tied up and hung. Sonic Youth controlled four Black Pawns, and was a villager! You hear a few scuffles, and the sound of a rather loud battle, but wake up to see no battle causualties. Instead, you find the mangled corpse of st.cronin, eaten by wolves. st.cronin was a White Bishop!

[jeheinz72]

Well that was about as expected.

[RendeR]

Wow, guess Cronin's plan really hit close to home for some wolves....


VOTE THE JACKAL

He's a wolf, no other reason for him to lie about his scan.

[st.cronin]

Heinz,

My presentation rubbed you the wrong way, for which I apologize. I am simply trying to win the game, and doing my best to mount a persuasive argument.

[jeheinz72]

Wow, guess Cronin's plan really hit close to home for some wolves....


VOTE THE JACKAL

He's a wolf, no other reason for him to lie about his scan.

Is that really the most important issue at hand?