Werewolf LXXII: Chess (Checkmate!)

[jeheinz72]

Were I the wolf I'd kill PB and you don't have a chance of taking out Neon. The game would be stalemate. As a wolf I'd have just talked myself out of a win by joining with PB to a stalemate.

Yes, but oh look, you just switched. Funny that. Isn't it.

[jeheinz72]

Well, I'm not going to snipe back and forth with Narc on this. It's silly.

I've made my case, and it doesn't sound like PB's coming back anyway. I know I'm not a wolf and Narc has done about a half-dozen wolfy things (including that whole suggest a stalemate -> take one reply by me -> magically "change" his mind)

I doubt I'll check in again before deadline.

[Neon_Chaos]

:D

Fun Fun Fun

Unvote No Lynch
Vote Narcizo

[Narcizo]

Yeah, but you see, 100 different shades of stupid as I am, I still wasn't sure who the wolf was. You, basically, admitted that you don't want to die even if it gave the white team victory. What more do I need?

[Neon_Chaos]

I know who the wolf is. :)

It's pretty obvious, isn't it?

[jeheinz72]

Yeah, but you see, 100 different shades of stupid as I am, I still wasn't sure who the wolf was. You, basically, admitted that you don't want to die even if it gave the white team victory. What more do I need?

Wait wait wait, where did I say such a thing? If my death secured white victory, I'd certainly take that.

The catch is, it doesn't.

If I die, that leaves you, PB, and the two kings.

No matter who you slice as the wolf being left, it's unlikely to result in a white victory.

In fact, *Pass*, can you clarify here? If it's say, 2 white queens (owned by 1 player) and the 2 kings left is that scored a stalemate, a white win or game-on (and if so, for how long, as I'd surmise given the POV issues it'd be hard for even 2 queens to mate the king)

[Narcizo]

I've been talking to Pass about this as well. He won't give an answer.

[Narcizo]

Well in that case which ever way you slice it I'm shagged.

[jeheinz72]

If that scenario is scored as a white win, then I say we don't move any votes. It's a 3-3 tie, you and I will both die, one of us is surely the wolf and all's well that ends well.

If it's not a white win though, which is what only you have assumed, then that is a completely unnacceptable outcome to me, yes. Given that with the fact that even a 2 queen vs 1 king advantage I don't think white can win that in a timely enough fashion to not just be called a stalemate. And no offense to PB here, but he's admitted as much that he isn't a chess player. I'm a moderate one at best, maybe a tick or two more experienced than PB and I think I'd have a difficult time pulling that off.

[jeheinz72]

I've been talking to Pass about this as well. He won't give an answer.

That's crap. I think we really should get an answer on how that is judged. I mean theoretically if it's just PB and the two kings then:

- PB and NTN vote No Lynch every day
- There are no wolf night kills
- It's a big cloudy game of chess

It could concievably never end. My guess is that'd be a stalemate after X number of turns.

[jeheinz72]

Of course that's going off of that fact that the <1% chance PB is the masterful last wolf. I'm assuming that isn't the case, and frankly, if it is, then he deserves it.

[Passacaglia]

I'll clarify a little by putting it this way: I won't keep the game going unnecessarily, but I will keep the game going if something other than a White win is a possibility.

[Narcizo]

Unless PB is the wolf.

[Narcizo]

Looks like I did fuck up letting mccollins die. You're never going to believe that I'm not the wolf Heinz, right?

[Narcizo]

Oops! Naughty word. Am I allowed to edit?

[Passacaglia]

I guess, if you really want to.

[Passacaglia]

Sorry, I've rethought this. If it's the Kings and a White villager, White wins. I was thinking that there would be some doubt as to whether the last non-King player was a wolf, so people would have to decide whether to vote No Lynch or not, but if the last player was a wolf, the wolves would have already won -- so at that point, I'd call the game for White.

[Neon_Chaos]

Unvote Narcizo

Vote jeheinz

[Narcizo]

But if the bodyguard is alive he can protect himself. Heinz?

[jeheinz72]

Neon, you prefer a wolf win to a white win I take it?

[Narcizo]

Unvote Heinz
Vote PB

I can't do this all afternoon. No way a white villager votes for me under these circumstances.

[jeheinz72]

I'm so bleeping confused right now

[Narcizo]

I mean, to save me.

[Narcizo]

Neon, it's up to you. Stalemate or wolf win?

[jeheinz72]

Ok, here's how I have it

jeheinz: Neon, PB x 2 (3)
Narc: NTN and me (2)
PB: Narc (1)

I'd go home and Narc night kills PB. Wolves win.

But Narc wants me to make it 3-2-1 with votes for PB in 2nd. Same end result.

Basically Neon is throwing the white team under the bus because we took his queen when he told us who his queen was

[jeheinz72]

Neon - One last imploration to your sense of right here. This is a look at the vote count right preceeding your reveal about CR (literally typed as you typed)

Chief Rum (6): Sonic Youth (717), KWhit (805), TheJackal (809), Cronin (89X), Lathum (897), mccollins (900)

Lathum (5): jeheinz72 (710), path12 (841), PurdueBrad (846), Neon Chaos (850), Narcizo (887)

st.cronin (3): Anxiety (783), claphamsa (797), Oliegirl (857)


No Lynch (1): Qwikshot (861)
The Jackal (1): Chief Rum (638)

Not voted: NTN (invalid), RendeR

Knowing what we know now, CR had 15 votes, Lathum 8. Additionally, of CR's 15 votes, the majority, 9 were coming from black players (2 sets of pawns and Lathum). Even if all the white folks pulled *off* of CR and voted elsewhere (as in not Lathum either, a black bishop), CR gets lynched 9-8.

C'mon man, let's take the wolves down here, but realistic about it.

[ntndeacon]

NArcizo, vote back for heinz. please. If you are a villager do that. I will explain after the day.

[ntndeacon]

actually heinz it is 3-2 now for Narcizo. Neon voted for him.

[jeheinz72]

At this point I'd rather vote NTN and let him sort it all out

[jeheinz72]

actually heinz it is 3-2 now for Narcizo. Neon voted for him.

No, Neon unvoted him and voted me.

[ntndeacon]

keep your vote where it is heinz

[jeheinz72]

At this point I'd rather vote NTN and let him sort it all out

Of course, admiteddly, that's easy for me to say when I'm the one about to get lynched!

[ntndeacon]

ok imissed that

[jeheinz72]

keep your vote where it is heinz

But then we lose.

Narc night kills PB and that's a wrap.

[ntndeacon]

then I need Narcizo to vote for himself
If he comes on

[ntndeacon]

changing it to me wont help. Neon wont go for that and PB's votes are fixed

[jeheinz72]

I think we're S-O-L.

[ntndeacon]

probably, but leave it there on the off chance Narcizo shows up

[jeheinz72]

Damn that Art Institute.

[jeheinz72]

probably, but leave it there on the off chance Narcizo shows up

Yeah, nothing else to do about it. Switching to PB doesn't help. Neon is likely in bed, we can't even let him pick.

[Passacaglia]

Damn that Art Institute.

If it's any consolation, my mom and I saw Elvis Costello last time I was at the Art Institute.

[jeheinz72]

If it's any consolation, my mom and I saw Elvis Costello last time I was at the Art Institute.

It's not. :mad:

[jeheinz72]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/jeheinz72/10618.jpg


This thread was missing the Ketchup Porn. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Jackal]

See now that's art Heinz, that's what PB should be showing his students.

[jeheinz72]

Haha

[Passacaglia]

Vote count:

Narcizo -- jeheinz72 (1721), ntndeacon (1737)
Neon_Chaos --
jeheinz72 -- PurdueBrad (1741), Neon_Chaos (1768)
No Lynch --
PurdueBrad -- Narcizo (1771)

[Passacaglia]

For the second time, the pieces decide that two of their kind are worthy of lynching. They string up both Narcizo and jeheinz72, hoping that salvation is finally upon them. Narcizo and jeheinz72 were White Rooks! Narcizo sobs uncontrollably as he faces his doom, while jeheinz72 howls like mad. Narcizo was a villager, and jeheinz72 was a wolf!

As night falls, White King ntndeacon and his two White Queens, PurdueBrad, gang up on Black King Neon_Chaos, proclaiming their victory. White wins!

[jeheinz72]

Well, I tried my best. If only Neon listened to me.

[claphamsa]

booooo

[The Jackal]

That was a fun game, the wolves were lucky to be in a position to win at the end there. Damn you PB, damn you and your Penguins too. :)

[Neon_Chaos]

:)

Game over.

[jeheinz72]

Why did Narc die too? If PB has two queens, shouldn't it be 3-2-1?

[jeheinz72]

That was a fun game, the wolves were lucky to be in a position to win at the end there. Damn you PB, damn you and your Penguins too. :)

Yeah, we made a solid comeback. Who knows, if PB was around, I think I might've gotten him. But c'est la vie.

[Passacaglia]

Good game, everyone! I had a lot of fun running it!

A lot of the dead folks have had a chance to see this already, but here's the spreadsheet that kept track of everything going on in the game:

http://www.geocities.com/amadaun17/WWChess.xls

[jeheinz72]

Fun game Pass, thanks for it. I had a great time playing.

Oh, and Jackal and I have enormous cojones for killing Collins when Narc told me he was protecting him.

[Passacaglia]

Why did Narc die too? If PB has two queens, shouldn't it be 3-2-1?

PB lost his Pawn powers when he became a Queen. :p

[Neon_Chaos]

There was no way that black could win in the end-game scenario.

It was either White or Wolves, and I really didn't care much who won or lost by then.

[Passacaglia]

Fun game Pass, thanks for it. I had a great time playing.

Oh, and Jackal and I have enormous cojones for killing Collins when Narc told me he was protecting him.

Seriously. I was sure you guys had it won at that point.

[jeheinz72]

Seriously. I was sure you guys had it won at that point.

I was shocked it worked out. I figured that even if he thought I was a wolf he wouldn't actually give me a chance to do it.

I think our big big mistake was night-killing Path the night we did instead of Collins or PB actually. I know I underestimated the pawns until it was too late.

[Neon_Chaos]

I pretty much had Jackal pegged as a wolf when he hadn't died in 4 days.

No way the wolves let a seer live that long.

I knew jeheinz was a wolf when he didn't go to trap me (i was "in his sights", and he had a basic idea of where everyone was... I could have been easily boxed in by one move, I believe)

[jeheinz72]

I pretty much had Jackal pegged as a wolf when he hadn't died in 4 days.

No way the wolves let a seer live that long.

I knew jeheinz was a wolf when he didn't go to trap me (i was "in his sights", and he had a basic idea of where everyone was... I could have been easily boxed in by one move, I believe)

Yeah, I was surprised I wasn't hit hard by that.

But I couldn't risk accidentally killing you, and sweeping to my right was the only move that guaranteed that.

Pass said if I ran into you I automatically killed you, like I coudn't put in an order to make sure I stopped short of you.

[jeheinz72]

I was really surprised PB voted for me. I thought leaving work yesterday that I had it. Drat

[ntndeacon]

we had discussed voting out both heinz and Narcizo. we purposely split our vote.

[jeheinz72]

we had discussed voting out both heinz and Narcizo. we purposely split our vote.

Oh that's right, once PB became a queen you two could PM, couldn't you?

[ntndeacon]

yes, and I believed at that point that it was a symmetric wolf alignment, so I trusted PB. and we made up a plan to have both rooks voted out. that way whichever was the wolf would be ousted.

[jeheinz72]

yes, and I believed at that point that it was a symmetric wolf alignment, so I trusted PB. and we made up a plan to have both rooks voted out. that way whichever was the wolf would be ousted.

Yeah, that was our worry with giving up Jackal to get by, that people would realize it wasn't rook-knight-bishop-pawn

[KWhit]

It was infuriating to be dead in this game as I felt like I pretty much knew who the wolves were from really early on - I had correctly surmised that the teams' wolves were mirror images of each other from day one.

I didn't follow too closely after I was killed, but did nobody mention that and use that to find them?

[Passacaglia]

The symmetry of the wolves being rook-knight-rook-knight was not intentional. The only criteria I had in mind were that there would be two White wolves and two Black wolves, and that two wolves wouldn't be PM partners with each other (i.e. having the same piece and color on the board).

[KWhit]

Looks like you guys were answering my question as I was typing.

[mccollins]

PB lost his Pawn powers when he became a Queen. :p

He should have had a vote for each queen, but that wasn't clarified in the rules.

When PB had one Queen and one Pawn, did he have 2 votes then?

[hoopsguy]

Fun game. I think it is the best one you have run, Pass.

I was pretty disappointed with biting it at the end of Day 1 after working as hard as we did to avoid the highest vote counts on me and Jackal. Seriously, we were very cooked most of that day and there was a ton of work behind the scenes by the wolf team to try and architect a day that would work out in our favor. I wish I had more time to play with the other guys that were wolves, as I think that was my first time playing wolf with any of them.

The one nitpick that I have on the game is that the pawns not only had four votes each, but they could communicate with a partner. With two blocks of 8 votes in the early going, it really made the vote a crapshoot for anyone else. If I had it to do over again, I would play a very cautious game until we identified the pawns (we already knew the knights by virtue of our roles) and go after them with vigor.

I also would like to have seen the pawns with an option to use anywhere from 1-4 votes. I don't think they would have come out with guns blazing on four votes early in the game if they had the option to "lighten" the vote, except in the case of KWhit and his partner where they were attempting to not die. I think that one change would make the game a little more strategic ... with the current ruleset the pawns almost have to be eliminated early to have a chance of controlling the vote. Similarly, the pawns know they have a disproportionate amount of control ... probably not the best feeling when they don't know if they are making good/bad votes.

[jeheinz72]

Yeah, if I had it to do over again I would've wanted to just night kill Knights and Pawns. I can't believe I missed that fact either.

[Passacaglia]

He should have had a vote for each queen, but that wasn't clarified in the rules.

When PB had one Queen and one Pawn, did he have 2 votes then?

The rules said he would lose his Pawn powers -- I thought that covered it. He didn't have two votes when he had one Queen and one Pawn.

[hoopsguy]

Ah, who am I kidding? I don't think I'm capable of playing a "very cautious game".

Still, I would have tried hard to ID the pawns before I started pissing people off :)

[hoopsguy]

The continuous JEHeinz posts suggesting "why is everyone playing like a wolf????" cracked me up as I was reading along.

[Passacaglia]

Fun game. I think it is the best one you have run, Pass.

I was pretty disappointed with biting it at the end of Day 1 after working as hard as we did to avoid the highest vote counts on me and Jackal. Seriously, we were very cooked most of that day and there was a ton of work behind the scenes by the wolf team to try and architect a day that would work out in our favor. I wish I had more time to play with the other guys that were wolves, as I think that was my first time playing wolf with any of them.

The one nitpick that I have on the game is that the pawns not only had four votes each, but they could communicate with a partner. With two blocks of 8 votes in the early going, it really made the vote a crapshoot for anyone else. If I had it to do over again, I would play a very cautious game until we identified the pawns (we already knew the knights by virtue of our roles) and go after them with vigor.

I also would like to have seen the pawns with an option to use anywhere from 1-4 votes. I don't think they would have come out with guns blazing on four votes early in the game if they had the option to "lighten" the vote, except in the case of KWhit and his partner where they were attempting to not die. I think that one change would make the game a little more strategic ... with the current ruleset the pawns almost have to be eliminated early to have a chance of controlling the vote. Similarly, the pawns know they have a disproportionate amount of control ... probably not the best feeling when they don't know if they are making good/bad votes.

Thanks! I agree that it's my best game so far, but I think my first two were pretty much bombs, so that's not saying much.

I can see where people are coming from on the Pawns, but I don't think it's that big of a deal. The Pawn power ended up changing the result of only one day's vote, and even then, there were three Pawns on hoopsguy (one was enough to kill hoopsguy, but two were needed to save KWhit). KWhit did have a nice advantage for sure, knowing that SY had 4 votes also, so hoops was his best bet. But even then, if any of the votes on KWhit were Pawns, KWhit would still have gone down. As the game goes on, I anticipated more Pawn deaths on the board, plus some mounting distrust between the Pawns. I think that giving the Pawns the ability to lighten their vote makes them too powerful -- the idea was that they really needed to take some responsibility in their vote, since it counted so much. I think this also opened people up to vote for anyone, rather than feel like they have to vote for someone "in the running" -- maybe one of the few votes on that person is a Pawn, or maybe a Pawn will join them.

[st.cronin]

Why did the wolves kill Qwikshot? That seemed to be a highly questionable move.

[KWhit]

BTW, Pass. I thought that was a great game. The chess board added a lot, I think.

I wish I could have been around for more of it, but that was really fun.

[jeheinz72]

Why did the wolves kill Qwikshot? That seemed to be a highly questionable move.

Our thinking was that he was about to clear PB, and at the time PB had been shadier than Narc had been. We couldn't let that COT expand much further. We had to leave some people behind to attempt to pin the final wolf on at the end.

[Passacaglia]

Why did the wolves kill Qwikshot? That seemed to be a highly questionable move.

I thought that was a bit surprising, too. My take on that was that The Jackal revealed as a Knight on the first night, and goes untouched, but Qwikshot reveals as one, and gets killed as soon as possible. I figured everyone would look at The Jackal at that point.

[jeheinz72]

I thought that was a bit surprising, too. My take on that was that The Jackal revealed as a Knight on the first night, and goes untouched, but Qwikshot reveals as one, and gets killed as soon as possible. I figured everyone would look at The Jackal at that point.

Yeah, but at that point we knew Jackal was going to out RendeR as a wolf the next day.

[Passacaglia]

By the way, reading the PMs between jeheinz72 and Narcizo was a thing of beauty. When mccollins died, Narcizo was pretty much convinced he had blown the whole thing. I thought he had, too, until PurdueBrad managed to save the day (although I'm not sure if it went down like he thought it would).

[jeheinz72]

I was sure I was going to mess up my PM's, sending a Wolf one to Narc. Frankly, I'm surprised I didn't.

I wasn't even running the game and I had to clean out my PM's 5 times.

[st.cronin]

Render and I hardly communicated at all. I actually was pretty suspicious of him because he didn't move. I did freely share my board info and scans with him, although we never really talked much about strategy.

As I argued, once Qwikshot was killed, the board balance was disrupted, and white could afford to ignore the wolves.

[Passacaglia]

I discovered that there was an option to download all my PMs as a text file, which was enormously helpful to me, since I wanted to save them all. I think I had to do that something like ten times.

[st.cronin]

I discovered that there was an option to download all my PMs as a text file, which was enormously helpful to me, since I wanted to save them all. I think I had to do that something like ten times.

How have you ever run a game without doing that? :eek:

[jeheinz72]

Yeah that's a handy thing...

[Passacaglia]

How have you ever run a game without doing that? :eek:

For the BCS game, I just copied and pasted PMs I thought were interesting into a text file. I didn't see that I could download them all in one batch until this game.

[Narcizo]

Thank god I'm quitting this game. I'm such a total ídiot.

[path12]

Good game Pass. I didn't have Jackal or heinz on my radar at all when I died.

I wish I would have lasted long enough to really make an attack. My second move was not where I originally stated, which ended up putting me in the middle of the board -- I think that was beneficial to see where everyone was, but not for survival purposes.....

[path12]

How have you ever run a game without doing that? :eek:

I've never done that. Had no idea you could until right now.

It's fitting that I have the banner "Are you an idiot?" at the top of my screen right now.

[path12]

Thank god I'm quitting this game. I'm such a total ídiot.

Obsessive, yes. Idiot, no. ;) I hope you're not really quitting.

[st.cronin]

Narc, you're one of my favorite players. I'm insisting that you play in the game I run (3 games out).

[jeheinz72]

Ditto that Narc. You weren't an idiot by any stretch, you just got the misfortune of dealing with me and all my lies in the game.

You really didn't play nearly as badly as I led the thread to believe.

I hope you don't "retire" one bit.

[hoopsguy]

I know it is no fun feeling like you screwed up a game, particularly after investing 7-10 days playing. That said, your team won, Narc :)

Hope you enjoy a short break and come back refreshed, be it for Cronin's game or another one in the future.

[PurdueBrad]

WAHOO!!! Way to go white team and ntndeacon, nice job with the splitting of votes. I knew that if we could pull off getting both, we would be guaranteed to get the wolf. In all honesty, I incorrectly assumed that I still had two votes and that we would need Neon to vote the right way to tie it, thank goodness this wasn't the case although I did have the wolf.

Heinz, you may have tried to spin me but in all honesty, I thought the voting record was VERY odd and I am going to be especially stubborn and obstinate after Hoops got me AGAIN.

Very, very nice.

Pass, great game and I learned something about Chess and may even try to take it up.

Mccollins was a great partner, as was ntndeacon.

This puts me in a great mood!

[hoopsguy]

Heh, I made a comment in a PM to the wolves post-game suggesting that you (PB) are a tough guy to move from an opinion ... at least for me.

For what it is worth, I thought Heinz put out just an outstanding position/argument this morning on why he was a good guy. But tough to argue the approach that you and NTN took on how to best work the end-game.

Nice job by the villagers down the stretch, apart from that little RendeR mistake. Why does that always happen to him in games where I'm a wolf? Even when I'm dead, he still gets set up :)

[PurdueBrad]

Narcizo, the white team won, you certainly didn't mess up IMHO. Things happen during the game but it isn't like you were working with 100% information and then did something else, you took a couple guesses and gambles. I think you're one of the deepest thinkers on here from an analysis standpoint and see angles that a lot of us would miss. I think the big thing is just to temper some of them with the idea that sometimes the most reasonable explanation is the right one. But I would hate to see you not play, you have been a good player in the games I've been in.

[jeheinz72]

Yeah, I must add, that had I actually been a villager, Narc would've been a blast to be PM-partners with. Some of his ideas had some merit to them.

[jeheinz72]

Heh, I made a comment in a PM to the wolves post-game suggesting that you (PB) are a tough guy to move from an opinion ... at least for me.

For what it is worth, I thought Heinz put out just an outstanding position/argument this morning on why he was a good guy. But tough to argue the approach that you and NTN took on how to best work the end-game.

Nice job by the villagers down the stretch, apart from that little RendeR mistake. Why does that always happen to him in games where I'm a wolf? Even when I'm dead, he still gets set up :)

Yeah, I think with PB and NTN split I was doomed either way. With them split, and then Narc and I of course split, that left Neon, who voted for me anyhow.

[The Jackal]

Thank god I'm quitting this game. I'm such a total ídiot.

Don't quit, you should be complimented by the amount of time Heinz and I spent deliberating over what play you'd make. In the end we called your bluff and called it well, but if I recall he had a PM drafted at 2:58 to switch the kill to you and we nixed it.

At least you didn't blow yourself up on a friggin' cruise ship.

[PurdueBrad]

Heh, I made a comment in a PM to the wolves post-game suggesting that you (PB) are a tough guy to move from an opinion ... at least for me.

I actually appreciate that a lot, as I'm learning to play this game it's good to hear something like that. I try not to be stubborn and listen, but it can be a tough line. I sometimes find myself more willing to give some of the more dominant players (you and Barkeep come to mind) a pass when sometimes I need to stick to my guns. When it comes to the rest of the players, from 2'nd tier to your newest players, I'm a little less willing to move. I think it is because I ultimately get in my head, "Well, IF Hoops/Barkeep/etc. are on my team, I would hate to lose them just on my suspicion."

[PurdueBrad]

At least you didn't blow yourself up on a friggin' cruise ship.



BOOM! Still one of the funniest things I've seen on here, that and Path being turned to stone.

[jeheinz72]

Don't quit, you should be complimented by the amount of time Heinz and I spent deliberating over what play you'd make. In the end we called your bluff and called it well, but if I recall he had a PM drafted at 2:58 to switch the kill to you and we nixed it.

At least you didn't blow yourself up on a friggin' cruise ship.


Yep, as we went over it one last time I typed up the PM and everything, JUST in case.

Really, as it turns out, we didn't make the call so much on the fact of what you said, but more that we had had had to kill mccollins. He was trusted and about to become all sorts of a bad-ass for the white team. We figured that if those pawns turned to queens, or worse-yet rooks with wolf protection ability, there was a 0% chance to win.

[hoopsguy]

I actually appreciate that a lot, as I'm learning to play this game it's good to hear something like that. I try not to be stubborn and listen, but it can be a tough line. I sometimes find myself more willing to give some of the more dominant players (you and Barkeep come to mind) a pass when sometimes I need to stick to my guns. When it comes to the rest of the players, from 2'nd tier to your newest players, I'm a little less willing to move. I think it is because I ultimately get in my head, "Well, IF Hoops/Barkeep/etc. are on my team, I would hate to lose them just on my suspicion."

It is a very tough line because WW is both a community game and a test of your convictions given that the person trying to persuade you may be your enemy.

In this particular instance I didn't really mean it as good or bad, but more in the sense that they had to make sure they felt good about your loyalty going in because otherwise I thought it would be an uphill battle to gain it.

For what it is worth, I think your approach to the game is very good when I'm not involved :) But it always seems that I'm having to work extra hard to convince you that I have your best interests at heart, whether I'm lying or telling the truth. That is probably a by-product of the fact that we have been on the opposite team quite a few times.

[PurdueBrad]

That is probably a by-product of the fact that we have been on the opposite team quite a few times.

That is very true. We have not played together a ton, but a decent amount and I think we've been on the same team twice (and one of those times you ended up getting converted away from my side) so I do fight that bias each game.

[Lathum]

Just wanted to add to what hoops said, I didn't really follow the game after I died but the way the 4 pawns had 4 votes just didn't add up in my mind.

I get what Pass was doing but it seemed to me so unbalanced. Then I asked a question about the rules because I was trying to get a grasp on the game and I got jumped on and lynched for it. I thought it was a little bush league.

[Passacaglia]

Heh, I made a comment in a PM to the wolves post-game suggesting that you (PB) are a tough guy to move from an opinion ... at least for me.

For what it is worth, I thought Heinz put out just an outstanding position/argument this morning on why he was a good guy. But tough to argue the approach that you and NTN took on how to best work the end-game.

Nice job by the villagers down the stretch, apart from that little RendeR mistake. Why does that always happen to him in games where I'm a wolf? Even when I'm dead, he still gets set up :)

I agree for the most part. But there was one point where heinz said something to Narc in the thread about how he'd listen to a case for PB -- I thought surely people would jump on heinz trying to make it villager/villager -- but of course, I had a different perspective than anyone else.

Some other favorite moments:

CR calling out The Jackal as a wolf, then getting lynched for it, and after he turns up villager, still no one looks at The Jackal, and his trust is so high he gets RendeR lynched.

claphamsa putting in a late vote for ntn, making him tied for the lead, essentially killing himself since ntn had the order in to kill clap if he won the vote. The same night, Lathum missed a vote because his wisdom teeth were giving him trouble -- if he had been able to vote, he would have saved himself (I guess there is a reason to vote, even with other people having extra votes :p )

KWhit thinking he was White. At this point, the Rooks and Knights knew their color based on the first kills, but the Pawns had to deduce it. PurdueBrad and mccollins knew they were White without a doubt, since both of them were able to see both friendly Rooks (should be clear from the Board 1 tabs), and since hoopsguy had died as a Black Rook, they must be White. KWhit assumed he was White based on the number of Pawns and pieces The Jackal mentioned being around him, but it just so happened that it matched what KWhit could see on the opposite side of the board, but with Anxiety being the Knight that was near him. I don't remember if the wolves thought KWhit was white also, and thought they were maintaining the balance, but that was the beginning of White taking over -- I think balance still might have been salvageable after that, but things got gradually worse and worse, with two Black pieces getting lynched the next night (Lathum and ntn duking to clap), then Anxiety getting lynched and Qwikshot getting night-killed -- another reason the Qwik kill was strange, I was assuming the wolves would try to maintain balance more here -- I think PurdueBrad or mccollins would have been a good choice that night.

[Chief Rum]

Two things I didn't get:

1. Why no one picked up on The Jackal being the wolf after the posts by Sonic Youth and myself, particularly after I was revealed as a villager. Things were messed up the day I was lynched, I get that, but, really, The Jackal should have been strung up the next day. The math I laid out was pretty irrefutable.

2. Why on Earth did the wolves not kill the pawns, oh, right away? As soon as they were revealed, for instance. Especially the white ones, once it balanced toward white. No way PB should have been around at the end of the game, and the wolves should have become de facto black members in "covert" protection of Neon, to make sure the game didn't end too early in a white victory.

Other than that, I enjoyed the game and continued to follow it after I died. I don't know that anyone on any side in this, though, is going to point to it as a moment of excellence in WW play.

Thanks for running it, Pass.

[The Jackal]

Well, for one, we were in the middle of a chess game. If we killed off all the pawns the kings could easily be sitting ducks, as could any of the four wolves.

[Passacaglia]

I think the Pawns in this game were an interesting psychological experiment of some sort. From the rules:

You are seen as the least important of your team, but you can be quite useful.

I think that pretty much held true. It wasn't until I saw the PMs of the wolves exhcanging their roles with each other that I realized that since two wolves were Knights, they knew the other two Knights, and could kill them easily. Luckily for me, they got a little cautious with that, and luckily for me, the village managed to scan a wolf with such little seer power. But at this point, I was thinking I screwed up the game -- that with the wolves knowing the seers and the bodyguard, they were going to run rampant.

But the Pawns changed that. The Black Pawns snagged a wolf Day 1, and the White Pawns really put pressure on Neon and really charged for the last row (one of the reasons I was rooting for White from the beginning was because they pushed all eight Pawns forward right away and got some other pieces forward Night 1, which I thought was really cool). It seemed like I was gradually hearing rumblings of how they were too powerful, and I think a lot of their power stemmed from the fact that people didn't realize how powerful they were right away -- no one seemed concerned too much with what they were up to, and it took the wolves a while to kill them (except KWhit).

[Chief Rum]

Good Lord, I haven't even gotten to the Day One lynch. Is it going to take me forever to comb the roller coaster posts from today's results?

Heh, these midday deadline games are killer.

I couldn't have made a less impression on the board yesterday, what wiuth my time constraints, so I was really blocked in trying to help out with analysis or getting a good view of the situation. I am going to have to cram in more analysis tonight before I disappear, maybe double or triple my post count. ;)

BTW, this post the night before I was lynched (same night as my post about The Jackal) was a hidden message to Lathum and the two pawns (whom I later discovered were Sonic Youth and KWhit). Alas, it was apparently too hidden of a messgae.

The first paragraph is to the pawns. I used "comb" and "roller coaster" in that sentence to try top tip the pawns off to the fact I was aware they had gone to an alternating pawns forward-pawns at starting spot pattern. As the black queen, I was the only one with viewing power to see almost that entire pattern. It wouldn't have told them their color, but it would have told them I was their queen without Neon having to reveal.

I also tipped off Lathum with the third paragraph. We blocked each other (he was the bishop on the other side Neon) trying to pass through the square in front of Neon. Apparently we both went 8 with our timings. The "blocked" was the clue to him that I was the one he had "blocked" with, and the "cram double or triple my post count" message was intended to let him know I would go a tick (2) or two (three) faster than I did the first night, so we didn't get blocked again.

I think this hints may have been too vague. :)

[Chief Rum]

Well, for one, we were in the middle of a chess game. If we killed off all the pawns the kings could easily be sitting ducks, as could any of the four wolves.

Sorry, if the sides were even I buy this, but they weren't. White was dominant on the board and could have made a move to try to mate Neon. And they controlled the vote with their pawns after SY and KWhit bought it. At that point, you should have thrown the pawns to the wind to even the game back up some.

[jeheinz72]

I think the night killing of the pawns was something we would've "liked" to do, but always found better reasoning. From what I recall, here were our thoughts. It was like we were fighting on 2 fronts. On one hand, we had to keep the game as balanced as possible, but on the other, we couldn't let people deduce who the wolves were too easily and we had to leave ourselves "outs" for the end game, since no matter what, for us to win this was a game that was going to get down to a 4-5 person left scenario and 2 of them are Kings. We had to keep people around to try and pin it on, and they were PB and Narc.

BK, Night 1: Get a Seer outta the game

KWhit, Night 2: Trusted and pawns

Path12, Night 3: White Queen in an attempt to balance the game. I think this was the lynch where we probably should've lynched Collins instead. Just a case of thinking too much like regular chess and not enough like WW-Chess

Qwik, Night 4: Trusted black Seer. I'll maintain for infinity that this was the right call to make given our situation at the moment we made the call. Granted, like I said, we likely goofed the previous night, but at this moment, we had to off Qwik. We couldn't let him clear PB, since you have to remember

Collins - Impossible to make a case against given his vote for hoops Day 1 and no posts to latch on to
Cronin - Cleared
Narc - Wolf-protection bodyguard, using it almost always on himself
PB - Made some very wolfy posts, candidate for last lynch
RendeR - Potential fall guy since Jackal could "scan" him as a wolf. Needed one to distract the voting and get me farther along
Olie - Black team and harmless, power-wise
NTN/Neon - Kings
Sonic - Black team and harmless, power-wise.
Me and Jackal - The Wolves

Given that was who was alive, it was Qwik, Cronin, PB or RendeR. If we kill Cronin, Qwik just clears PB that night and we get no net gain. If we kill PB or RendeR, we whittle down who we can go after as the 3rd and 4th wolves.

I'd make that call on Qwik again, and it did what it was intended to do, which was get us farther in the game and give us a shot at the end, which we had and were all of 1 vote short.

Realistically, given the way Day One went down, we were in a big big hole. It went from 16:4 to 15:3, a 2nd wolf was getting a lot of heat still (Jackal) and people were posting how my vote looked terrible, which it did.

But I think this was the right call. Our larger mistakes were underestimating the pawns early and killing Path on night 3 instead of collins there.

[st.cronin]

Heinz: It would have been easy enough to cast suspicion on Qwik at a later time though. Night-killing him wasn't your only move.

[jeheinz72]

Heinz: It would have been easy enough to cast suspicion on Qwik at a later time though. Night-killing him wasn't your only move.

How though?

I mean he had cleared you, which would be proven true when you died, and you knew he wasn't lying.

Ditto PB, had he cleared him

He handed the group Anxiety, plus for Qwik to be bad it meant 3 black wolves, which I don't think a lot of people were buying as a plausible situation. I think if the final 5 were Me, Neon, NTN, Narc and Qwik there is zero chance Qwik is going to look bad, and there's a chance that A) Qwik scans me and I show wolf or B) Qwik scans Narc and shows villager.

I mean who knows, maybe I/we were wrong, but I think our larger mistake was killing path instead of collins, not Qwik instead of whomever was left.

[st.cronin]

Think about Qwik's interaction with Anxiety. I was about halfway convinced that Qwik was bad before he was killed.

[The Jackal]

Think about Qwik's interaction with Anxiety. I was about halfway convinced that Qwik was bad before he was killed.

Even if we had cast some doubt on him, once he was killed he'd be revealed as a villager and all of his scans would be trusted. And he was about to scan the entire white team.

[jeheinz72]

That's more my point.

The blame him later game, when he keeps scanning and scanning would've been a lot riskier.

[st.cronin]

You're right about the difficulties not killing him would have left you with - I just think that killing Qwik made it impossible for you to win. Any other option would have been better.

[The Jackal]

You're right about the difficulties not killing him would have left you with - I just think that killing Qwik made it impossible for you to win. Any other option would have been better.

If Neon voted for PB, we would've won. :p

[st.cronin]

Yeah, it was pretty unbelievable how close you made it. I don't understand why white was so reluctant to follow my plan.

[The Jackal]

Narc, rather, not PB.

[PurdueBrad]

Yeah, it was pretty unbelievable how close you made it. I don't understand why white was so reluctant to follow my plan.

Hey, I was with you! Although I would've liked to see us work harder to organize a tie with the Jackal vote to take both him and Oliegirl (I think it was) at the same time. I know it's hard but I still think attempting ties would've really forced the wolves to be a bit more 'out' in their voting patterns.

[Qwikshot]

You're right about the difficulties not killing him would have left you with - I just think that killing Qwik made it impossible for you to win. Any other option would have been better.

I had suspicion about Jackyl...but I figured that the black cause was for naught.

The funny thing is that I almost didn't scan Anxiety. I was actually going to go up the side of the board but at the last moment I changed my mind...I had already known where Anxiety was going to be and said to myself, it is now or never...

So I was pleasantly surprised to see him come up wolf. Knowing that hoops was one, and Anxiety was the other, allowed me to write off any more blacks as wolves.

I was hoping with all the confusion that I could at least get into the thick of the white's board.

The chatter that Anx and I would've had would now be tainted as I wouldn't be sure what he would be telling me would be truth or fed.

I was paranoid that if I was scanning a suspected wolf and telling Anx of my actions that I would be killed before revealing him.

So I figured that perhaps by bringing forth revelation about Anx that I at least was eliminating a threat and hopefully smoke out another wolf in the process.

I didn't believe I could bargain with him if I had chatted with him; and I didn't believe I would have been able to coordinate any battleplans without fearing he'd leave me out to dry.

Still not my best effort...

[Abe Sargent]

I had suspicion about Jackyl...but I figured that the black cause was for naught.

The funny thing is that I almost didn't scan Anxiety. I was actually going to go up the side of the board but at the last moment I changed my mind...I had already known where Anxiety was going to be and said to myself, it is now or never...

So I was pleasantly surprised to see him come up wolf. Knowing that hoops was one, and Anxiety was the other, allowed me to write off any more blacks as wolves.

I was hoping with all the confusion that I could at least get into the thick of the white's board.

The chatter that Anx and I would've had would now be tainted as I wouldn't be sure what he would be telling me would be truth or fed.

I was paranoid that if I was scanning a suspected wolf and telling Anx of my actions that I would be killed before revealing him.

So I figured that perhaps by bringing forth revelation about Anx that I at least was eliminating a threat and hopefully smoke out another wolf in the process.

I didn't believe I could bargain with him if I had chatted with him; and I didn't believe I would have been able to coordinate any battleplans without fearing he'd leave me out to dry.

Still not my best effort...

We could have had a bargain, and we could have coordinated well for Black. Ah well. Sometimes, wolves aren't always as bad as they eem, especially in three way games.

[Abe Sargent]

I thin I'm just a naturally trusting and honest person, and people take advantage of me when I am a wolf. In the Survivor game, i trusted Alan T when he said he would help and support me if a wolf revealed and told the complete truth, and I took him up on it, only to be betrayed by him. In the game where I was Lucifer and st.cronin was Gabriel, I chose not to go after him in the thread at all until he came after me first. Here, I would have been happy to work with Qwik when both of us were behind the eight ball, but instead of even giving me a chance, he gave me up for short term gain that hurt his team too much. Especially since I handed Black the White Queen. I guess I'm just too nice as a wolf.

[Narcizo]

OK I've had time to get a bit of perspective which, obviously, was what I was missing during the game. (if I'd been paired with a villager things might have gone a bit better, although knowing myself I doubt it). I still maintain I played a terrible game and the reason is that I get obsessive. I'm a much better villager in the first two-three days before the blinkers fall down. But once they do I'm a huge liability in the game, as not only can I find evidence to prove anyone guilty, but it only takes me 5 minutes of coming up with the theory before it becomes the ONLY POSSIBLE TRUTH! I'm then willing to do anything based on that theory.

Anyway, the game has pretty much shown that I can't manage to play while I have part-time paternity leave. I also need to find out if I can switch off the obsession button. If not then I can't/won't carry on playing because it isn't worth it - it's not really enjoyable for me and it doesn't benefit anyone else.

I thought the game was fun (well, apart from the obvious "me-spazzing-out" bit. There were actually circumstances where it could be beneficial to the village for people to think you're a wolf, for example (although I forgot to tell Neon which Rook I was) - I love freaky stuff like that. The chess moving bit made the whole thing a bit more interesting and the PM partner thing was a neat idea.

However once black got behind they were doomed. Maybe there should have been no side reveal on death and bishops and king and queen shouldn't know their side either. That would have made it easier for one side to recover. The other thing, as others have pointed out is the extreme power of the pawn owners.

Thanks for running the game Pass. It was very interesting. Just not the best for my own obsessive character.

[Narcizo]

I was shocked it worked out. I figured that even if he thought I was a wolf he wouldn't actually give me a chance to do it.


I figured that that night was vital. If the wolves (I wasn't 100% you were a wolf at the time - that's the problem with coming up with all this ker-razy theories, when one is actually true then you don't know whether to believe it) killed me then they could take out mccollins the night after. I had been protecting mccollins the previous two nights but in the end thought it was more important to keep myself alive with the chance of a block later. If I'd been around long enough before deadline to have read through the thread then I would almost certainly have switched back to mccollins again. (because of your comment to mccollins about me being responbsible for protecting him - I, temporarily at least, knew you were setting me up there). Didn't have enough time to digest that and change my order though.

[Narcizo]

Even if we had cast some doubt on him, once he was killed he'd be revealed as a villager and all of his scans would be trusted.

Not by me. :(

[Narcizo]

Well this is all very interesting. Let's see. We know Qwik is a villager so.... Everyone seems agreed that there are two white wolves left. Who's available? Render, Jackal, st.cronin, Heinz, PurdueBrad, McCollins and myself.

Phew! That's PB and, most importantly, me in the clear. Anxiety isn't going to target a wolf to save a villager.

There's cronin out of the picture as well.

So who do we have left? Render, Jackal, Heinz and McCollins. We know Jackal or Render is a wolf so that leaves Heinz and McCollins as the wolves left. Day one voting points very, very strongly in favour of Heinz being the wolf. Would McCollins really leave 4 votes on a fellow wolf with the possibility that one of the other people with a vote on the wolf is a pawn? I find it very, very hard to believe. Meanwhile Heinz had what has to be classified as a high-suspect late vote switch to KWhit. (of course, so did I as I pointed out at the time).

So there we have our wolves. Heinz and Jackal/Render.

D'oh! :o

[Narcizo]

Dammit! Heinz moved to H6 on the last day? I presumed he was at A or B6. That was going to be the proof I needed. The only way he could have moved to h6 was if he was a wolf, as he must have done it phase one, otherwise he would have caught Neon. That's why he was worried when I brought up the move theory. Should have just come out and said that heinz at G6 or H6 means he almost certainly a wolf, but I was hoping he would damn himself. Luckily PB and NTN got there in their own way.

One thing though Pass. Shouldn't they both have bounced, as they were both moving through one square that was the same?

Anyway thanks to PB for saving me from myself the second time in three games.

[Narcizo]

I thin I'm just a naturally trusting and honest person, and people take advantage of me when I am a wolf. In the Survivor game, i trusted Alan T when he said he would help and support me if a wolf revealed and told the complete truth, and I took him up on it, only to be betrayed by him. In the game where I was Lucifer and st.cronin was Gabriel, I chose not to go after him in the thread at all until he came after me first. Here, I would have been happy to work with Qwik when both of us were behind the eight ball, but instead of even giving me a chance, he gave me up for short term gain that hurt his team too much. Especially since I handed Black the White Queen. I guess I'm just too nice as a wolf.

I didn't get the whole outing thing at all either. Either he's working with you guys in which case he should keep quiet about it. Or he isn't, in which case he should come out with the info immediately. I didn't get your reference to ccing him either. Had you done that then you would have told him who all the wolves are. Then why would he need to scan anyone. From a personal point of view this stage is pretty much were I started to completely lose the plot.

[Passacaglia]

One thing though Pass. Shouldn't they both have bounced, as they were both moving through one square that was the same?



I'm not sure who you're talking about here, and where.