Werewolf XCVII - Labyrinth II (GAME OVER - COMMONERS WIN!)

[Autumn]

Well, of Pass and BK are up and up, then I guess I'd vote Abe, since I know I'm good.

I'm liking this idea of revealing though. Then it's just a race to the center while we pick off wolves. I don't see a downside yet.

[DaddyTorgo]

Since everyone else is reeling in shock, let me think outloud. If all hte good/neutral guys reveal, we basically run the risk of losing our seer and bodyguard right off. Which won't mean much since we'll already know who the wolves are. We can pick them off and not need our roled players. Hmm.

but we don't want the person who has to kill Pass to reveal, right? you gotta throw that monkey wrench into there...and then we might kill them by accident...hmmm

[Thomkal]

I'm seeing several posts from Autumn asking for me to reveal someone from my list - while I can see that there is some benefit (in that I would get another scan), I'm fairly sure that there's some downside risk as well. In particular, I could see a situation where I effectively decide who we're lynching by stating that a certain player is on my list, followed by a one-sided, pile-on vote - means that there's a pretty good chance that we lose out on getting some useful vote history from today's lynch vote.

There's also the possibility that the wolves may hand me a free scan if they were to night-kill someone on my list - don't think that they would make that move if that information was out in the open.

I don't have enough information to be comfortable with what may come down to declaring a death sentence on a completely innocent player, just to get one more scan (that I may not be able to use if I end up as the wolves' target on Night 2).

This is not saying that I won't make my list public - just that I would like to see a balanced argument, taking into account both the good and bad sides of the deal, before I start naming names.

This is some good thinking Martin. What do you think about letting the drama of the day play out, getting voting records and such out there before making your vote for someone on your list? Then we can see if people jump to your vote or not and why.

[Autumn]

Well, what good is it to the Minotaur to know who is Theseus? Clearly we could not longer reveal our locations if we're racing to the center with all roles revealed. But if they run into a room together I assume theyu're going to know it.

[Passacaglia]

but we don't want the person who has to kill Pass to reveal, right? you gotta throw that monkey wrench into there...and then we might kill them by accident...hmmm

Well, one of them already has. Even if they do reveal, it's not like there's anything I can do about it. What am I going to do -- vote for you? I'm not sure if the wolves really care if I win or you guys win, either, so I don't expect them to night-kill my enemies or anything. The odds seems stacked in your favor here -- I have to make sure none of you rascals get to the center, and I have to get good rolls and defeat Theseus and Dr. Hyde.

[MartinD]

But more than one person was singing dubb's praises as a player before he got lynched, and I have to think that given the opportunity the wolves would try to take him out over Martin (no offense intended Martin).

None taken - if I was on the side of the wolves, I'd want to get dubb on the sidelines as soon as possible too...

[Abe Sargent]

It looks like four people who voted for Dubb yesterday are not at least semi-cleared at this point is that correct?

Martin-claims to be Nostradamus.
Ntn-claims to be Inferno Hunter.
Lerriuqs-claimed to be good by Martin with a Nostradamus scan
Hoops-claims to be Telepath.

Leaving Autumn, Barkeep, Pass, and Abe as unknowns who voted for Dubb. I'd like to hear more from each of you why I and the rest of us shouldn't be voting for you tonight.

Yeah, but to be fair, if Martin was giving off signals of Nostradamus yesterday, should you instead be looking at voters of him? If I were a wolf, I'd vote for someone for whom they might be hidden Nostradamus rather than the alternative.

[MartinD]

This is some good thinking Martin. What do you think about letting the drama of the day play out, getting voting records and such out there before making your vote for someone on your list? Then we can see if people jump to your vote or not and why.

Unfortunately, I don't really have that option, as I need to put in a relatively early vote - will be signing off for the night at around 11 UK time at the latest (6pm Eastern), and there's no way I'll be online near deadline, unless I get stricken by a case of sleep-surfing :lol:

[dubb93]

Let me be clear on this. Just b/c Pass has revealed absolutely does not mean he is trusted. He is not be trusted. He is absolutely not on our side this game. Infact his goal is to kill all of us. He wins when ALL of us are dead.

Unvote Pass

[Abe Sargent]

I love it when people read back through pages of posts and respond as they go ;-)

I do it all of the time, just ask my peers. Sometimes it can be quite funny. I references hte Necro day earlier when I was building a case against Blade for a wolf when I discovered that he had been Day Killed and Blade was the seer, si I had been building a case against the seer about how he smelled like a wolf.

[DaddyTorgo]

Well, one of them already has. Even if they do reveal, it's not like there's anything I can do about it. What am I going to do -- vote for you? I'm not sure if the wolves really care if I win or you guys win, either, so I don't expect them to night-kill my enemies or anything. The odds seems stacked in your favor here -- I have to make sure none of you rascals get to the center, and I have to get good rolls and defeat Theseus and Dr. Hyde.

you make a good point. just trying to think through all of the potential angles you could have for revealing...plots within plots and such.

[Abe Sargent]

Sweet. Now that we know the Minotaur I can say that I've transformed from Jekyll into Hyde.


Geez, I'm not sure if anybody'd beleivve me if I RR'd at this point. I am waaay behind teh curve.

[Thomkal]

So here's where we stand with reveals and role claims:

I. Lathum - blown up by the inferno device night 1 - Ancient of Earth
II. dubb93 - lynched day 1/returned day 2 - Phoenix
III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
IV. ntndeacon-claimed to be Inferno Hunter
IX. hoopsguy-claims to be a Telepath
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XI. Danny-claims to be a telepath
XII. Barkeep49-claims to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde
XV. MartinD-claims to be Nostradamus
XVII. Passacaglia-claims to be the Minotaur
XVIII. DaddyTorgo-claims to be a Telepath

Unknown Roles:

V. Autumn
VI. Abe Sargent
VII. Schmidty
VIII. JAG
XIII. Chief Rum
XIV. Tyrith
XVI. Thomkal
XIX. nfg22

[Thomkal]

Unfortunately, I don't really have that option, as I need to put in a relatively early vote - will be signing off for the night at around 11 UK time at the latest (6pm Eastern), and there's no way I'll be online near deadline, unless I get stricken by a case of sleep-surfing :lol:

ah yes forgot you were across the Pond. :) Still revealing close to 6 pm Eastern still gives us a good amount of time from the noon movement phase to discuss and get votes out there before you weigh in.

[Abe Sargent]

Well, for now, I find Autumn's lack of being in teh COT plus the slip to be enough.


Vote Autumn

[Thomkal]

Yeah, but to be fair, if Martin was giving off signals of Nostradamus yesterday, should you instead be looking at voters of him? If I were a wolf, I'd vote for someone for whom they might be hidden Nostradamus rather than the alternative.

Okay there is that. Who then makes the best wolf candidate from the voters on Martin to you then? I myself was not fully convinced Martin was Nostradamus based on his posts, so I'm glad he came out and stated it more clearly today.

[Barkeep49]

but we don't want the person who has to kill Pass to reveal, right? you gotta throw that monkey wrench into there...and then we might kill them by accident...hmmm
I don't follow. Why did you think I wouldn't want to reveal? As Pass points out there's not much he can do against me; in fact the two of us don't even have complete control over our movements. And until Pass dies it's not in the wolves interests to kill me either since they don't want the Minotaur around either.

[Barkeep49]

Who is the third telepath? Do we know?

[Danny]

I'm not sure a mass reveal is a bad idea, if all the remaining good villagers reveal, we then only have wolves/loki left. Im sure there will be counter reveals and then it's just a matter of picking them off from that list.

[Danny]

Who is the third telepath? Do we know?

Danny. Hoops and DaddyTorgo

[Barkeep49]

Who is the third telepath? Do we know?
I'm missing a whole lot of posts this game. Thanks Thomkal for putting that together.

[Thomkal]

I'm missing a whole lot of posts this game. Thanks Thomkal for putting that together.

No problem Barkeep, things were getting a bit scattered, good to have all in one place for easy viewing/discussion

[Autumn]

So here's where we stand with reveals and role claims:

I. Lathum - blown up by the inferno device night 1 - Ancient of Earth
II. dubb93 - lynched day 1/returned day 2 - Phoenix
III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
IV. ntndeacon-claimed to be Inferno Hunter
IX. hoopsguy-claims to be a Telepath
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XI. Danny-claims to be a telepath
XII. Barkeep49-claims to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde
XV. MartinD-claims to be Nostradamus
XVII. Passacaglia-claims to be the Minotaur
XVIII. DaddyTorgo-claims to be a Telepath

Unknown Roles:

V. Autumn
VI. Abe Sargent
VII. Schmidty
VIII. JAG
XIII. Chief Rum
XIV. Tyrith
XVI. Thomkal
XIX. nfg22

Just pointing out that we don't know Render's role either. He's a tweener.

[Thomkal]

I'm not sure a mass reveal is a bad idea, if all the remaining good villagers reveal, we then only have wolves/loki left. Im sure there will be counter reveals and then it's just a matter of picking them off from that list.

While a mass reveal sounds great at this point, it kinda takes a lot of the fun out of the game too and not sure its fair to the wolves who have few places to hide at this point. But I will reveal if there's more of a call for a mass reveal.

[Thomkal]

good catch there Autumn.

[Autumn]

I'm tending toward revealing. Several of the Ancient's abilities revolve around finding out roles and we render them meaningless if we reveal. Some roles are less useful if revealed but it should be offset by the fact that we'll have the wolves cornered.

[Danny]

While a mass reveal sounds great at this point, it kinda takes a lot of the fun out of the game too and not sure its fair to the wolves who have few places to hide at this point. But I will reveal if there's more of a call for a mass reveal.

Yeah, I understand, but we're already half committed to that. And since there are only four unrevealed villager roles the wolves can pick off the fbi agent/seer/bg pretty easily.

[Danny]

At this point, I think we're pretty much committed to a mass reveal. The wolves pretty much now know who the BG, Seer and FBI agent are anyway.

[Autumn]

Yeah, I understand, but we're already half committed to that. And since there are only four unrevealed villager roles the wolves can pick off the fbi agent/seer/bg pretty easily.

I agree, but I"m a bit hesitant to pull the trigger. I felt like I was central in causing some bad blood in the role reveal game and I don't want to screw any wolves over again, though I'd be very happy to beat them. I also haven't been playing long enough to know whether it's "bad form" to pull a mass reveal.

[Danny]

I'm not sure either actually, but my game was a bit different because it was explicitly part of the rules to not reveal. In general I wanted to avoid a mass reveal here, but now with so many roles revealed the wolves know who the seer/bg/private eyes are most likely (not necessarily who is which).

[Danny]

Though I guess if the wolves go to that group with their kills it narrows the field of who they could be.

[Autumn]

Well there are 9 unrevealed. Three of those are wolves, so there's six that they don't know.

[hoopsguy]

Autumn, my thoughts on a "mass role reveal" is that there probably should be some level of checks and balances in the game setup to discourage players from doing so. If those do not exist, or do not provide sufficient penalty to prevent the players from mass revealing, that is not the fault of the player who is doing what is best for themselves.

Bottom line - players almost invariably do what is in their best interest, even if it may not be great from a meta-game standpoint. Full role reveals on Day 2 seem kind of chintzy to me, but sometimes a game breaks like that.

[RendeR]

Its not often that a mass reveal will work this early inthe game. The rules set here tends to help us all around though so I think in this case its a great idea.

I will reveal my role if everyone else does.

[Danny]

Well there are 9 unrevealed. Three of those are wolves, so there's six that they don't know.

True, but they do get to scan a player each night to see their role, one or two of those combined with a lynching and they know at that point. Still killing them off also helps us narrow down the field of wolves.

[Abe Sargent]

I agree, I think a mass reveal will end this game immediately.

[Autumn]

Well, I'm not sure whether to reveal or not, but given the reveals we've had, if there was one wolf on Dubb it must be Abe, so I'm going to vote for him.

<b>

[Autumn]

oops

<b>Vote ABE SARGENT</B>

[Danny]

Well, maybe not a mass reveal, but I see no reason for this not to be Abe vs. Autumn, so you two will likely want to consider revealing at some point.

[Abe Sargent]

I will if I have to.

[Abe Sargent]

At this point, I think we're pretty much committed to a mass reveal. The wolves pretty much now know who the BG, Seer and FBI agent are anyway.

I agree, at this point, we've kinda cornered in our most valuable roles, so we migjht as well gofer.

[Abe Sargent]

If a move towards me forces me to rr, then so be it, but I'd rather my role close to my vest for now.

[Abe Sargent]

We'll see how the votes shake out in a few hours. Plenty of time and I gotta do some work for teh next hour before I go on vacation the next couple of days.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm not sure either actually, but my game was a bit different because it was explicitly part of the rules to not reveal. In general I wanted to avoid a mass reveal here, but now with so many roles revealed the wolves know who the seer/bg/private eyes are most likely (not necessarily who is which).

I feel somewhat bad about a mass reveal, but in a sense this one almost developed organically - not out of any like designed plan. So I guess I feel less bad.

And really - the wolves shouldn't be upset or frustrated that much. It's just a game. I've had games where I've gotten screwed as a wolf. I yelled...maybe punched a wall...drank a beer...watched some porn and i was over it.

That's the breaks. It's not a commentary on their abilities at all.

[DaddyTorgo]

and like others have said - the number of those who are "uncleared" is fairly low anyways - the 2 wolves have a very small subset they're shooting at anyways if they want to hit the unrevealed folk.

[DaddyTorgo]

for now

VOTE ABE

[RendeR]

I have to leave for the night soon, so lets figure out wtf we're doing and get it done already =)

[Danny]

It's dangerous if you leave Render because if someone fake reveals your role, you are not here to dispute it.

[Barkeep49]

I'm with hoops.

I think we as players play the game the hardest we can. If that involves mass reveals, so be it. It's the job of the person designing the game to think of that in the design phase.

[Danny]

I have a mid term today, so I will be leaving soon myself and won't be back until after deadline. I'd be cautious of someone revealing really late not giving others a chance to counter it.

[Autumn]

I guess I'd prefer to reveal and get votes on real wolf candidates, and early enough for the voting to keep up, and before the wolves get their act together and try to fake reveal.

I'm Nightcrawler. I did not want to reveal as that basically nullifies the advantage my role gives to the village, but I'd rather we lynch a wolf. With all the action in my direction the wolves would never bother killing me anyway.

[The Jackal]

Did it get a bit chilly in here? Brr. For one of you, at least!

[ntndeacon]

Anyone else think voting off Martin's list is the best way to go? I think it makes great sense early.

I hope others do not feel this way. I am not going to vote for someone just because he was a random person on Martin's pre game list.

[Danny]

Since I can't be on for the action

Unvote Autumn
Vote Jag

Abe already has a lot votes and I trust you guys will nail Autumn if someone counter reveals as nightcrawler.

[Danny]

Did it get a bit chilly in here? Brr. For one of you, at least!

I'm guessing the ice ancient froze someone just now. If that is the case Render looks good since it means that was a kill attempt.

[Danny]

Autumn post if you can

[Danny]

JAG as well, post if you can so we know it wasn't you who was silenced.

[Autumn]

I can post.

[JAG]

I'm Nightcrawler. I did not want to reveal as that basically nullifies the advantage my role gives to the village, but I'd rather we lynch a wolf. With all the action in my direction the wolves would never bother killing me anyway.

Nice try. It was only a matter of time before a wolf tried a fake reveal.

Vote Autumn

[Danny]

So Jag, you are claiming to be nightcrawler?

[Autumn]

<b>unvote abe
vote jag</b>

All I needed to hear.

[JAG]

Yes I am Danny, Autumn is an ancient. Obviously I can't prove it until deadline, but my vote isn't moving.

[Danny]

50/50 to hit a wolf now.

[RendeR]

I have a tennis match tonight, sorry guys. If you want me to reveal now I will.

[Passacaglia]

Yes I am Danny, Autumn is an ancient. Obviously I can't prove it until deadline, but my vote isn't moving.

No way you are Danny. I'm pretty sure Danny is Danny.


VOTE JAG

[Danny]

You two were my top two suspects today, so I was right about one of you, now just need to figure out which one :).

Unvote Jag
Vote Autumn

It's kind of a toss up between you two, so I am siding with the person who did not post your/our. Plus I think Abe or Autumn would have to be a wolf as well and I read Autumn as more likely to be a wolf.

[Danny]

With that said, I am ok with a vote for either one of the two. Worst case is we get a wolf tomorrow.

[Autumn]

I expect we'll get a "counter reveal" for every real at this point, the wolves are cornered. I hate to miss out on the fun of moving through the labyrinth, but if I get lynched or Jag does we'll have a wolf either way.

[Danny]

I'm off now, hopefully you guys hit the wolf :)

[Autumn]

"for every reveal" I meant.

[JAG]

There's not much I can say in my defense because my vote from yesterday looks bad. I can see why the wolves would choose Nightcrawler to fake reveal as because it's the one role they can't night kill so they figure they'll get him in a lynch. Either way this works out for us because it's one less ancient in two days if I die tonight or we get to kill our second in two days.

[Thomkal]

yeah now that Abe and Autumn, both dubb voters are voting for each other, I'm very curious what roles you are going to claim.

[Danny]

Nightcrawler also makes the most sense as a fake reveal since he seems the most likely to reach the center of the labyrinth first which really is the wolves only hope of winning.

[Tyrith]

Vote count?

[DaddyTorgo]

I have a tennis match tonight, sorry guys. If you want me to reveal now I will.

no need. it's JAG vs. Autumn

[Barkeep49]

Nightcrawler should have revealed almost from the get go. At least that's what I'd have done if I were he. Since JAG is newer I think he's less likely to pull that off.

Vote Autumn

[Autumn]

I only get to move one extra square a day than you guys, and I can't control my direction, so I'm not sure I'm all that likely to get anywhere.

[Autumn]

Nightcrawler should have revealed almost from the get go. At least that's what I'd have done if I were he. Since JAG is newer I think he's less likely to pull that off.

Vote Autumn

Why would I reveal right away? I can't be night killed and so my only power is in getting them to waste a night kill.

[DaddyTorgo]

UNVOTE ABE
VOTE AUTMN

plenty of time and i'll be around to move it if I need to.

[Barkeep49]

Why would I reveal right away? I can't be night killed and so my only power is in getting them to waste a night kill.
Wrong. Your power is of being invincible and having been the start of a COT.

[Autumn]

How so?

[Thomkal]

heh I obviously posted my last comment before I saw Autumn's reveal. Since I said I'd vote for a Dubb voter, I'm siding with JAG on this one for now.

VOTE Autumn

[Tyrith]

Runaway is bad.

VOTE JAG

[dubb93]

Vote Autumn.

Worse case we get a wolf tomorrow.

[Autumn]

Interesting that normal wisdom is that the first reveal is true, but everybody (nearly) is jumping on me. I guess soon you'll remember why it's the normal wisdom.

Why do you guys think the wolves would have tried to kill Render instead of Martin if you think I'm a wolf?

[The Jackal]

Autumn 6 (JAG 559, Danny 566, BK 576, DT 579, Thomkal 582, dubb 584)
Jag 3 (Autumn 561, Pass 565, Tyrith 583)

[MartinD]

I had my suspicions about Autumn already, so I'm more inclined to believe JAG here. If I'm wrong, it means that we lose a day of usable vote history, but that's worth it if we find a wolf.

VOTE AUTUMN

(For what it's worth, neither Autumn or JAG are on my list.)

[RendeR]

Because Martin was the obvious choice to protect by the Paladin last night. The fact that he went somewhere unexpected and actually stopped the night kill tells me they were trying to avoid the obvious play and got caught.

[Autumn]

I think we probably should have mass revealed when we had the chance before the wolves got a chance to think about it. I've got to go to dinner and deal with the kids so I won't be back until about deadline probably. I don't have anything else to say I suppose except, oops, I made a typo this morning. I've been active all game, offering input and was the first to reveal. If somehow I make a better suspect than JAG who showed up suddenly to counterreveal and then left, well good luck.

[Autumn]

For however it might help, an assuming I'm still in the lead by the time I get back to the computer, I teleported randomly last night forward, right and straight. I found myself in a room with Martin.

Dinner wasn't ready so I came back trying to think of some way to prove JAG is a fake, but I don't see him on here, of course.

[Autumn]

Since dinner is still not ready and I'm still sitting here working, let me add that we should consider who was on the block when I revealed that got the wolves out of the woodwork. By which I mean Abe, of course, who was likely going ot be the big vote getter after I revealed. JAG, Abe and I would guess Thomkal are probably the wolves.

[nfg22]

I'm guessing the ice ancient froze someone just now. If that is the case Render looks good since it means that was a kill attempt.

Actually that places more suspicion on him, because that means he wasnt being frozen as they did it now?

[Tyrith]

Actually that places more suspicion on him, because that means he wasnt being frozen as they did it now?

Isn't it fairly reasonable that an Ancient of Ice would kill using, well, ice? And if he's lying, couldn't he make a cleaner lie than this fairly easily?

[nfg22]

Isn't it fairly reasonable that an Ancient of Ice would kill using, well, ice? And if he's lying, couldn't he make a cleaner lie than this fairly easily?

Im just saying it doesnt clear him.

[nfg22]

For now im voting with Autumn...I don't see any other possibilities.

[nfg22]

Vote Autumn

[hoopsguy]

There's not much I can say in my defense because my vote from yesterday looks bad. I can see why the wolves would choose Nightcrawler to fake reveal as because it's the one role they can't night kill so they figure they'll get him in a lynch. Either way this works out for us because it's one less ancient in two days if I die tonight or we get to kill our second in two days.

That was my thought as well, and why I was suspicious of the reveal when it was initially posed. Plus if/when they get a counter-reveal they at least know who not to waste a night action against.

This will be a rare case where I go against the first to reveal.

VOTE AUTUMN

[Autumn]

For now im voting with Autumn...I don't see any other possibilities.

Except for ... the guy who revealed after I did? lol

[RendeR]

I don't see how it casts any suspicion on me. They wanted me dead, I doubt they care if I talk, I've already told what I know.

It does corroborate my claim of being attacked last night. I was protected by the Paladin last night, that is very plain in my PM.

[Thomkal]

I likely will reveal after dinner-just doesn't seem worth trying to keep it a secret with so few roles left.

[RendeR]

I'm out till late


VOTE AUTUMN

[The Jackal]

Autumn 10 (JAG 559, Danny 566, BK 576, DT 579, Thomkal 582, dubb 584, Martin 587, nfg 596, hoops 597, RendeR 601)
Jag 3 (Autumn 561, Pass 565, Tyrith 583)

[DaddyTorgo]

Interesting that normal wisdom is that the first reveal is true, but everybody (nearly) is jumping on me. I guess soon you'll remember why it's the normal wisdom.

Why do you guys think the wolves would have tried to kill Render instead of Martin if you think I'm a wolf?

that is interesting, yes. i've been fucked by people not going with conventional wisdom several times lately too. it's very frustrating.

[Tyrith]

that is interesting, yes. i've been fucked by people not going with conventional wisdom several times lately too. it's very frustrating.

Hasn't the conventional wisdom been right pretty much all the time lately, too?

[nfg22]

...

[Chief Rum]

I know this will come off as suspicious, but so be it. I believe Autumn is an Ancient, and that his fate is sealed here. So I'm staying away fromt he runaway and going with my gut.

VOTE RENDER

[Chief Rum]

I will be working the second job, so I won't be back until after deadline. See you all later.

[Schmidty]

Guys, I have no idea if I'm still in the game, so I'm not commenting on things because I don't want to break the rules if I'm out.

I PMed BK an hour or so ago, so hopefully I'll hear before the deadline.

[Thomkal]

Okay don't really want to reveal, but at this point the wolves have a pretty good shot of getting the seer anyway.

Yes, i am Mentok, the Mind Taker, your seer.

I reveal in hopes the Paladin can protect me for one night and give me a last view from a rapidly shriking pool. My original intention for a night 1 viewing was either Lathum or Barkeep-Lathum for his trying to draw suspicion on "vanilla villagers" and Barkeep for agreeing with him. My main reason for voting for Barkeep yesterday too.

But as the day progressed to lynch and it became the Martin vs Dubb battle, I wanted to make sure that there wasn't a wolf trying to be protected. As I mentioned earlier I didn't completely buy the claims of others that Martin was Nostradamus. And I've been burned before in these games by assuming. So I scanned Martin, and surprise! he is good.

I was hoping for less reveals today so I would have more room to hide, but that was becoming more and more impossible. So dear Paladin if you so choose, please protect me tonight. I am open to suggestions on who to scan tonight if you have any thoughts on it.

[DaddyTorgo]

garf...yikes.

probably the smart play though thomkal, you're right.

[DaddyTorgo]

Guys, I have no idea if I'm still in the game, so I'm not commenting on things because I don't want to break the rules if I'm out.

I PMed BK an hour or so ago, so hopefully I'll hear before the deadline.

do you have reason to believe that you wouldn't be?

[Thomkal]

So here's where we stand with reveals and role claims:

I. Lathum - blown up by the inferno device night 1 - Ancient of Earth
II. dubb93 - lynched day 1/returned day 2 - Phoenix
III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
IV. ntndeacon-claimed to be Inferno Hunter
V. Autumn-claiming to be Nightcrawler
VIII. JAG-claiming to be Nightcrawler
IX. hoopsguy-claims to be a Telepath
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XI. Danny-claims to be a telepath
XII. Barkeep49-claims to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde
XV. MartinD-claims to be Nostradamus-views as good by Thomkal
XVI. Thomkal-claims to be Mentok, the Mind Taker-the seer
XVII. Passacaglia-claims to be the Minotaur
XVIII. DaddyTorgo-claims to be a Telepath

Unknown Roles:

III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
VI. Abe Sargent
VII. Schmidty
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XIII. Chief Rum
XIV. Tyrith
XIX. nfg22

[ntndeacon]

I guess it doesn't mnatter at this point. I will go with the crowd here.

Vote Autumn

[Schmidty]

do you have reason to believe that you wouldn't be?

The Jackal said in a PM that he thinks I may be, but I haven't heard anything official though. This sucks. I really want to play.

[dubb93]

So here's where we stand with reveals and role claims:

I. Lathum - blown up by the inferno device night 1 - Ancient of Earth
II. dubb93 - lynched day 1/returned day 2 - Phoenix
III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
IV. ntndeacon-claimed to be Inferno Hunter
V. Autumn-claiming to be Nightcrawler
VIII. JAG-claiming to be Nightcrawler
IX. hoopsguy-claims to be a Telepath
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XI. Danny-claims to be a telepath
XII. Barkeep49-claims to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde
XV. MartinD-claims to be Nostradamus-views as good by Thomkal
XVI. Thomkal-claims to be Mentok, the Mind Taker-the seer
XVII. Passacaglia-claims to be the Minotaur
XVIII. DaddyTorgo-claims to be a Telepath

Unknown Roles:

III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
VI. Abe Sargent
VII. Schmidty
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XIII. Chief Rum
XIV. Tyrith
XIX. nfg22

If it is really this cut and dry, and I somehow doubt it is this game will become the poster game for why you can't have every player with a role and have every role/alignment public knowledge.

[Thomkal]

yeah dubb I agree which makes me worry that it really is this cut and dry.

[Thomkal]

Has anybody kept track of who might not have reported in since the supposed Ancient of Ice attack?

[Autumn]

I guess it doesn't mnatter at this point. I will go with the crowd here.

Vote Autumn

Well, it certainly does matter, and don't you think the wolves are probably going with the crowd if there's such a big crowd?

You guys can get JAG tomorrow but you're wasting a night here.

[Autumn]

Danny, these sort of mistakes are the reason it was not good to get too overoptimistic about our situation this morning. We could have done a mass reveal and put the wolves on the ropes, instead we're killing off a villager and letting a wolf hang around another night. Tomorrow they'll pull the same thing. I'd recommend forcing people to reveal and getting the fake reveals out there now so people can be scanned.

[The Jackal]

If it is really this cut and dry, and I somehow doubt it is this game will become the poster game for why you can't have every player with a role and have every role/alignment public knowledge.

Coming on the backs of a ton of people complaining about even one hidden role.

FWIW, there's things I need to change but I'll address it after the game is over.

[Autumn]

I feel like a should make a little speech here.

You guys don't find it odd that JAG just showed up suddenly to denounce me and then never came back, not hanging around to be able to answer any of my questions? Because he doesn't want to have to lie often enough to get tripped up. You guys are going to feel really played in about 20 minutes but then you're going to have to wait 24 hours to get any revenge. What will they pull between then and now?

[JAG]

For what it's worth, you'll pretty much never see me on here between 4:30pmish and 6pmish CST because that's when I leave work and drive to day care.

I don't think there's anything beyond my post 571 that needed to be said honestly. It was pretty clear people were going to make a choice between us based on what we had said and done previously and not after we were facing the gallows. Fortunately it looks like people have chosen well.

[Autumn]

I'm sure you think so, and what a convenient time to check in. Tell me JAG, why don't you tell us about your movement yesterday? And tell me what is distinctive about Nightrawler's movement as he closes in on the center of the labyrinth?

[JAG]

I'd be delighted to tell you about my movement, although it was very unexciting. I teleported into a dead end and there wasn't any other description of the area.

[Autumn]

And which directions did you move JAG?

[Autumn]

Clearly you are going based on the description in the write up that says "teleport" but do not know that Nightcrawler teleports one square at a time and in certain directions like everyone else.

[Autumn]

But since no one even bothered to log in at deadline, that will be that I suppose.

[Autumn]

All right, whatever, I'm done posting here. I'll go post in the Killed Early thread instead while you guys go, "whoa, whoops, guess he was right."

[The Jackal]

The Jester surveys the lynch results, a smug look on his face.

"Sporting decision, gents!"

He flicks his wrist and Autumn crumples to the ground, lifeless.

Autumn was Nightcrawler!

[The Jackal]

Website is loading one page every 3-5 minutes for me, so movement results are going to be delayed until that fixes itself.

[DaddyTorgo]

assholes!!!

sorry Autumn

JAG's the vote tomorrow then

[Abe Sargent]

Alright you wolf dunces. I had to be jailed last game for a day and I'm going to be out the next couple of days mostly. It was VERY unsporting to freeze me.

[Thomkal]

All right, whatever, I'm done posting here. I'll go post in the Killed Early thread instead while you guys go, "whoa, whoops, guess he was right."

"whoa, whoops, guess he was right" :) Sorry Autumn, but I would have felt a bigger fool had I voted for JAG and he turned out to be nightcrawler after that typo of yours plus being a dubb voter. We forced a wolf to come out from hiding at least so your death did give us that.

[hoopsguy]

Well, that was a bummer. I just wish that the person who had made the first "agreed role reveal" had something besides what I thought was the most convenient fake reveal for the bad guys. But shame on me for over-thinking things rather than just playing it straight.

[DaddyTorgo]

aaah so it was abe they froze

[Abe Sargent]

Well today was the downside of mass reveals, we might sometimes get a villager in a He Said He Said kind of thing, but now we have one wolf in the hand, so it's working pretty well.

[Thomkal]

hey Abe,

do you want to reveal since you aren't going to be around as much the next couple days?

[Abe Sargent]

I'd like to point out, for hte future, you can tell if someone is frozen if they have voted. My vote was pulled in all subsequent vote recaps by the GM, so you could tell I was frozen. We can use that inthe future if we spy it and are told someone was forzen.

[Abe Sargent]

hey Abe,

do you want to reveal since you aren't going to be around as much the next couple days?

I would prefer not too unless pushed, and certainly not at night.

[The Jackal]

All moves should be out.

[Thomkal]

okay so the question remains: why would the wolves freeze abe of all people at that point in the game?

[The Jackal]

FYI, Schmidty has been removed from the game. His role was non-essential and no one could find a replacement, so.. The Jester has struck him dead.

Schmidty was the Mongol Warrior!

[DaddyTorgo]

d'oh

[DaddyTorgo]

double-whammy

[DaddyTorgo]

if abe doesn't want to reveal that's fine. i say we give him until it's mathematically a bad idea to leave him then, and look elsewhere

tomorrow: JAG

then:

lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
Chief Rum
Tyrith
nfg22
Render

[DaddyTorgo]

note i included render and lerriuqs because they are "claimed to be good" as a result of other actions (receiving a block and a scan when one could be "scan as good") but i think obviously we look there last and go CR/Tyrith/NFG before that, barring other things

[Thomkal]

So here's where we stand with reveals and role claims:

I. Lathum - blown up by the inferno device night 1 - Ancient of Earth
II. dubb93 - lynched day 1/returned day 2 - Phoenix
III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
IV. ntndeacon-claimed to be Inferno Hunter
V. Autumn-lynched day 2Nightcrawler
VII. Schmidty-revealed as the Mongol Warrior/removed from the game
VIII. JAG-claiming to be Nightcrawler-is now a known wolf
IX. hoopsguy-claims to be a Telepath
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XI. Danny-claims to be a telepath
XII. Barkeep49-claims to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde
XV. MartinD-claims to be Nostradamus-views as good by Thomkal
XVI. Thomkal-claims to be Mentok, the Mind Taker-the seer
XVII. Passacaglia-claims to be the Minotaur
XVIII. DaddyTorgo-claims to be a Telepath

Unknown Roles:

III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
VI. Abe Sargent
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XIII. Chief Rum
XIV. Tyrith
XIX. nfg22

[Thomkal]

well I can view Abe or Render-I would not put it past the wolves to freeze one of their own at this point and Render being protected by the Paladin could be a fake too. Or go for one of the three basically unknowns in Chief Rum, Tyrith, or Nfg22. Decisions, Decisions...

[Tyrith]

I'm Loki. In essence, I'm a cultist.

Seems like the nature of this game has pretty much prevented me from having fun with this, sigh, so I'm going with the villagers. Winning is annoying occasionally :P

[Passacaglia]

I'm Loki. In essence, I'm a cultist.

Seems like the nature of this game has pretty much prevented me from having fun with this, sigh, so I'm going with the villagers. Winning is annoying occasionally :P

Can you clarify how you were able to make that choice?

[Tyrith]

Can you clarify how you were able to make that choice?

I'm a mischef maker - I can do things to help or harm the people I come across, and they influence what side I wind up on. Based on the choices I make, it influences what team I wind up on. ATM I'm still neutral, but there's really no point for me to try to go against this flow - we have the remaining wolves pretty well corned in the JAG/Abe/CR/nfg group.

[RendeR]

Well that was less than spectacular on our part.

[RendeR]

oh and I got my ass handed to me playing tennis too, so AWESOME night in Rend-land.

[Abe Sargent]

well I can view Abe or Render-I would not put it past the wolves to freeze one of their own at this point and Render being protected by the Paladin could be a fake too. Or go for one of the three basically unknowns in Chief Rum, Tyrith, or Nfg22. Decisions, Decisions...

If you want to scan me, I'm comfortable with that. If I were a wolf, I'd not use Ice tricks on my own right now, behind the 8 ball, I'd rather use them on one of the many revealed roles. But we've seen it happenb in other games with similar mecahnics, so I'd certainly understand why you would/.

[Passacaglia]

I'm a mischef maker - I can do things to help or harm the people I come across, and they influence what side I wind up on. Based on the choices I make, it influences what team I wind up on. ATM I'm still neutral, but there's really no point for me to try to go against this flow - we have the remaining wolves pretty well corned in the JAG/Abe/CR/nfg group.

So wait -- what does it mean to be neutral?

[Tyrith]

So wait -- what does it mean to be neutral?

Right now I win with no one. Seems like an incentive to actually do something.

[Passacaglia]

Right now I win with no one. Seems like an incentive to actually do something.

To do...what? Do you have a way you can actually have a win condition? That's messed. How are you supposed to know what to do if you have no win condition?

[dubb93]

When is this deadline. Midnight or noon?

[Passacaglia]

I believe it's noon.

[Tyrith]

To do...what? Do you have a way you can actually have a win condition? That's messed. How are you supposed to know what to do if you have no win condition?

If I go villager, I win with the villagers. If I go wolf, I win with the wolves. It's my choice.

[The Jackal]

Deadline is at noon, as usual. 12 PM. :)

[nfg22]

If I go villager, I win with the villagers. If I go wolf, I win with the wolves. It's my choice.

One problem...Im loki and I had the choice to go minotaur also...sorry. Your wrong. I have not made my choice but it has been presented to me. I know im second reveal but im not lying. So you have two wolves, Jag and tyriith.

Ill vote JAG.

Also, I havent made my choice but with two more wolves down it will most definetely be villager. I just got my choice now, with the movement which is why I had not made it.

[nfg22]

By the way...scan me. Ill come out LOKI

[RendeR]

By the way...scan me. Ill come out LOKI


Actually if you are indeed Loki your scan should turn out neutral.

Scans don't give specifics, just good/bad

[Tyrith]

Which leaves four people in the game without having claimed roles. So we're looking at JAG/nfg (nice try for a rookie, btw) and, realistically, either CR or Abe as wolves. What a pigeon shoot.

[nfg22]

Which leaves four people in the game without having claimed roles. So we're looking at JAG/nfg (nice try for a rookie, btw) and, realistically, either CR or Abe as wolves. What a pigeon shoot.

Well technically I am not a rookie, I have played before but it has been a while. Also being the Loki, I had no reason to reveal as I had no heat on me and had not made my choice yet. They will either lynch me and kill you the next day or kill you and then we roll on towards the middle. The village will win, if we can get to the middle.

[nfg22]

Actually if you are indeed Loki your scan should turn out neutral.

Scans don't give specifics, just good/bad

But I have made my choice...so arent I good now?

[RendeR]

But I have made my choice...so arent I good now?


That remains to be seen =)

[nfg22]

That remains to be seen =)

Well then lets see...:popcorn:

[Danny]

Thomkal, I say you scan CR. I think we end up lynching both NFG and Tyrith after Jag and possibly CR if he turns up wolf.

[Thomkal]

thanks Danny for the advice. I was all set to send my scan in a few minutes ago, had to reboot, and came back to find nfg claiming Loki now. May be the only time I was happy to have to reboot. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah i'd do that. scan CR.

we go JAG today and then we worry about the Tyrith/NFG decision tomorrow and then the day after that we worry about the CR/Abe decision (there is one there right - assuming Abe doesn't reveal) and then after that move to those like RendeR and Lerriuqs who were cleared by virtue of being the recipient of actions and haven't explicitly claimed roles.

That's a roadmap, in case I die.

[nfg22]

Thomkal, I say you scan CR. I think we end up lynching both NFG and Tyrith after Jag and possibly CR if he turns up wolf.

So no scanning me?

[DaddyTorgo]

So no scanning me?

nope. we're already 50/50 on you being good or bad. you may have to sacrifice your life for the good of the village if you are actually good, but if you do that you're a participant in the gloary of the win.

if you include lerriuqs and render we're only 25% sure that CR is a wolf (1/4), so he is a priority for a scan.

[Danny]

So no scanning me?

honestly, once we find the four wolves you should be the next one to be lynched anyway. If CR turns up wolf we can lynch Jag, CR and then Tyrith and you.

DaddyTorgo, the only thing I don't agree with is Lerriuqs, there is no reason for him to reveal, he has been cleared by Martin who we know is good. Also because Abe was frozen today we know that Render is a good guy as long as the bodyguard doesn't dispute his story. Because of this I'd say we have a wolf between NTN and Tyrith and then one between Abe and CR. I'd like to see CR scanned which gives us our wolf out of Abe and CR.

[Thomkal]

the thing is I think CR may be good, so I'm not sure if I want to scan him or not.

[nfg22]

honestly, once we find the four wolves you should be the next one to be lynched anyway. If CR turns up wolf we can lynch Jag, CR and then Tyrith and you.

DaddyTorgo, the only thing I don't agree with is Lerriuqs, there is no reason for him to reveal, he has been cleared by Martin who we know is good. Also because Abe was frozen today we know that Render is a good guy as long as the bodyguard doesn't dispute his story. Because of this I'd say we have a wolf between NTN and Tyrith and then one between Abe and CR. I'd like to see CR scanned which gives us our wolf out of Abe and CR.

Im down with taking one for the team if needed but if we get Jag and CR by that time we could scan me or tyrinth and find out who is who. I mean honestly if I was a wolf I still wouldnt be gaining anything. It isnt like you have to delay in killing those who you already know are wolves.

[DaddyTorgo]

honestly, once we find the four wolves you should be the next one to be lynched anyway. If CR turns up wolf we can lynch Jag, CR and then Tyrith and you.

DaddyTorgo, the only thing I don't agree with is Lerriuqs, there is no reason for him to reveal, he has been cleared by Martin who we know is good. Also because Abe was frozen today we know that Render is a good guy as long as the bodyguard doesn't dispute his story. Because of this I'd say we have a wolf between NTN and Tyrith and then one between Abe and CR. I'd like to see CR scanned which gives us our wolf out of Abe and CR.

good point - i forgot that!!

lerriuqs could still be some sort of cunning though, right? i mean i think that's the absolute LAST thing we look for, just saying.

[Barkeep49]

Vote JAG

For obvious reasons.

[Schmidty]

Bumping this.

[lerriuqs]

good point - i forgot that!!

lerriuqs could still be some sort of cunning though, right? i mean i think that's the absolute LAST thing we look for, just saying.

Or...I'm Theseus II...

[lerriuqs]

Just got caught up...A very interesting day.

Also, I'm unfortunately going to be away most of the day tomorrow as well. Was golfing today - tomorrow a course - but I should be here prior to deadline tomorrow.

[MartinD]

Catching up - apologies to Autumn, but I really didn't like the way that you kept going on at me to reveal who was on my list (once or twice would have been fair enough, but to mention it in what seemed like every post you made for the best part of a page was overkill). That appears to make today's lynch vote something of a formality...

VOTE JAG

For what it's worth, I do have a second scan - had dubb93 on my list, for very similar reasons to why I chose Lathum - and will be scanning nfg22. (I wouldn't have made this public, but wanted to be sure that Thomkal doesn't scan the same person as me.)

[nfg22]

Thanks you martin.

[Passacaglia]

Why are people voting? I thought we were still in night 2?

[DaddyTorgo]

we are. till noon. everyone's gonna hafta revote (unless jackal accepts these)

[Barkeep49]

Sorry. The phases of this game kind of blend together for me.

[Danny]

If we find another wolf today from a scan, we should vote that way. JAG is probably the brutal wolf.

[DaddyTorgo]

because he's the one that they chose to make the initial fake-reveal? you could be on to something there

[Thomkal]

If we find another wolf today from a scan, we should vote that way. JAG is probably the brutal wolf.

yeah I was going to bring that up. I definitely think JAG is the brutal wolf.

[Passacaglia]

Well I guess we can go for one of the Lokis, but I think you've got to go with the wolf you know, even if it's brutal -- especially with the advantage we've got.

[Passacaglia]

Or we can sit around and not say anything until the night deadline.

[Passacaglia]

All right, since there's no discussion, how about this. I'm standing in front of a shimmering blue column, which I can enter. Should I enter it?

[Thomkal]

why not Pass, the worse it can do is kill you. ;)

[DaddyTorgo]

Well I guess we can go for one of the Lokis, but I think you've got to go with the wolf you know, even if it's brutal -- especially with the advantage we've got.

i agree. wolf you know over 50/50 loki-shot i think.

[DaddyTorgo]

i agree. wolf you know over 50/50 loki-shot i think.

should say 50/50 wolf/loki shot

[Passacaglia]

should say 50/50 wolf/loki shot

Right. On the other hand, we might actually want to kill Loki.

[Passacaglia]

If I go villager, I win with the villagers. If I go wolf, I win with the wolves. It's my choice.

I thought I saw you in the thread Tyrith, so I'll ask now: when do you get to make that choice?

[The Jackal]

Those votes are valid, FYI. You can vote anytime you want between lynch deadlines.

[The Jackal]

JAG 3 (nfg 662, BK 679, MartinD 683)

[The Jackal]

Can you feel it now? Never go into battle with a wolf (or sicilian) when DEATH is on the line! Muahaha!

[DaddyTorgo]

I look at it this way - if Loki chose evil then presumably he'd be given PM rights with the wolves right? in that case why would they fake-reveal as him and thus lead to two of their own getting offed? would make more sense to fake reveal as a telepath or some other role.

[Thomkal]

well in case I'm dead here in a couple minutes, here's some final thoughts:

I scanned Chief Rum. I think its going to come back good and if so I think I know his role, but better to know for sure about him then go with a hunch I have about him. Look to his vote yesterday if I'm night-killed before I can reveal my view.

Martin's scan of nfg should give us a second wolf one way or another, and that should be the wolf we go for first. The third wolf should come down to Abe or Render-I'm leaning towards Abe right now, but wouldn't be surprised if its Render.

If we are somehow being fooled-I would look towards someone like ntn, barkeep, and pass who made a claim that haven't been verified. But with all the roles out there pretty much, I don't see how any of them could be doing a fake reveal at this point.

[DaddyTorgo]

well if those votes are valid

VOTE JAG

[The Jackal]

The Jester appears in front of you, sitting behind a desk, apparently immersed in some light reading.

Suddenly a horn begins sounding behind him - "We have a winner, we have a winner!"

The Jester looks up and yells, "What's his prize?!"

"Oh, right, I know!"

The Jester pops in front of MartinD and quickly snaps his neck.

"Predict that."

The Jester cackles madly and disappears.

MartinD was Nostradamus!

[DaddyTorgo]

well in case I'm dead here in a couple minutes, here's some final thoughts:

I scanned Chief Rum. I think its going to come back good and if so I think I know his role, but better to know for sure about him then go with a hunch I have about him. Look to his vote yesterday if I'm night-killed before I can reveal my view.

Martin's scan of nfg should give us a second wolf one way or another, and that should be the wolf we go for first. The third wolf should come down to Abe or Render-I'm leaning towards Abe right now, but wouldn't be surprised if its Render.

If we are somehow being fooled-I would look towards someone like ntn, barkeep, and pass who made a claim that haven't been verified. But with all the roles out there pretty much, I don't see how any of them could be doing a fake reveal at this point.

are you advocating going after nfg/tyrith ahead of jag then? or are you saying all this is after jag?

[The Jackal]

(to be clear, that was a NK)

[DaddyTorgo]

thanks Martin for all your help in this one!

[Tyrith]

I thought I saw you in the thread Tyrith, so I'll ask now: when do you get to make that choice?

Whenever I run into someone in the maze, it'll be up to me as to what I do for them, or to them. It'd really be quite clever in a game where one side isn't so clearly pinned. Sadness.

[The Jackal]

Movements will begin to trickle out now.

[Thomkal]

are you advocating going after nfg/tyrith ahead of jag then? or are you saying all this is after jag?

well before the night results that's what I was thinking, cause I'm sure JAG is the brutal wolf and would likely take me with him. I thought we would know which of nfg/tyrith would be a wolf, but I still think we should go for one of them since Loki is of dubious alignment and could swing either way.

[Thomkal]

Predict that, heh Jsster that was pretty funny. Sorry to see you go Martin-good job!

[Tyrith]

Putting my money where my mouth is.

VOTE NFG

[Passacaglia]

Whenever I run into someone in the maze, it'll be up to me as to what I do for them, or to them. It'd really be quite clever in a game where one side isn't so clearly pinned. Sadness.

That's interesting. So have you run into anyone yet? And once you do, does your first action toward them determine your side?

[Passacaglia]

Putting my money where my mouth is.

VOTE NFG

Uh, you're not interested in voting JAG?

[Tyrith]

Uh, you're not interested in voting JAG?

And pile in on what is sure to be an overwhelming massacre? You saw what that did in the last game - we might as well at least have the discussion as to where we go today, although ultimately we will wind up killing JAG.

[Passacaglia]

And pile in on what is sure to be an overwhelming massacre? You saw what that did in the last game - we might as well at least have the discussion as to where we go today, although ultimately we will wind up killing JAG.

I guess that's valid. And thinking about it more, if we're onto JAG as the brutal, maybe we should look at the two of you.


VOTE TYRITH


Not set in stone -- I'm still trying to figure out who I believe in this scenario, but I want to get you in there as a valid option.

[Thomkal]

so did you step into the pillar Pass?

[Danny]

Thomkal, what was the result of your scan?

[Thomkal]

I'm still awaiting the results of it.

[Danny]

Who did you scan?

[Abe Sargent]

Oka, I'n ot going to be around much today and tomorrow.


Vote JAG

[Passacaglia]

so did you step into the pillar Pass?

I decided not to. I need to guard the center, so I didn't want to do anything that might take me too far away from it.

[Tyrith]

I guess that's valid. And thinking about it more, if we're onto JAG as the brutal, maybe we should look at the two of you.


VOTE TYRITH


Not set in stone -- I'm still trying to figure out who I believe in this scenario, but I want to get you in there as a valid option.

That's fair.

[Tyrith]

BTW, we do still need to keep in mind that Pass's ultimate goal is to kill all of us - it's in his best interests to prolong the wolf/villager conflict as long as possible, within reason. Not saying he's actively doing anything against us right now, but we do need to keep in mind that he's not fully on our side. That said, I understand and have no problem with his vote.

[Thomkal]

Who did you scan?

look up, I already told ya. :) Chief Rum

[DaddyTorgo]

we do this every other damn game it seems, and it bites us in the ass somehow.

if we're 100% that JAG is a wolf we need to lynch his ass now. no "oh we'll save him for later" or any of that stuff.

when you find a wolf, you lynch the wolf. unless you're potentially at endgame and lynching the brutal first will lose you the game.

LYNCH THE WOLF

[Passacaglia]

BTW, we do still need to keep in mind that Pass's ultimate goal is to kill all of us - it's in his best interests to prolong the wolf/villager conflict as long as possible, within reason. Not saying he's actively doing anything against us right now, but we do need to keep in mind that he's not fully on our side. That said, I understand and have no problem with his vote.

I think you're forgetting, though, that I need the wolves to lose in order to win. In order to kill everyone, I can't let the wolves get a 1:1 ratio, since that would mean they would win before I could. What I need to do is for all the wolves to die, then hope I can find all the villagers before they reach the center.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm sick of us trying to be too "cute" as villagers and outthink the wolves. we found one...we lynch one. that's it. not "oh we'll save him for later walled up in a little pen."

LYNCH HIM

[Tyrith]

I think you're forgetting, though, that I need the wolves to lose in order to win. In order to kill everyone, I can't let the wolves get a 1:1 ratio, since that would mean they would win before I could. What I need to do is for all the wolves to die, then hope I can find all the villagers before they reach the center.

Do you really think the wolves winning this game is incredibly likely when there are 3 left in a group of something like 5 or 6 people (including myself)?

[Tyrith]

DT, I don't think you really have to worry about that - this seems like it's giong to be another runaway. Runaways without discussion, though, have been a recent downfall, so we might as well keep our options open if it stimulates discussion.

[DaddyTorgo]

you're prolly right tyrith

[hoopsguy]

DT, I'm with you unless we are choosing between two wolves. So I'll hold off on voting until learning about Thomkal's scan.

By the way, I was not able to talk last night on account of injuring myself avoiding the fire pillar in my room. I'm still very much alive and ready to jump back into the discussion. I just don't know how much there is to say today unless Chief Rum is viewed as a wolf.

[Passacaglia]

we do this every other damn game it seems, and it bites us in the ass somehow.

if we're 100% that JAG is a wolf we need to lynch his ass now. no "oh we'll save him for later" or any of that stuff.

when you find a wolf, you lynch the wolf. unless you're potentially at endgame and lynching the brutal first will lose you the game.

LYNCH THE WOLF

I don't think we can be too careful. While it may seem like we have this game in hand, we also have a 50/50 shot of getting a wolf or at least someone neutral who still might be evil. And who knows what the brutal can do? I'm not afraid for myself, since I'd imagine that the wolves want to kill villagers rather than me. I mean, what if something screwy happens, like killing one telepath kills the rest (or if that can happen only as a result of the brutal)?

Also, I've got a lot of time on my hands while queries are running, so I need something to talk about!

[Passacaglia]

Do you really think the wolves winning this game is incredibly likely when there are 3 left in a group of something like 5 or 6 people (including myself)?

Well like I said to DT, you can't be too careful. I need to get rid of the wolves, so that's what I'm going to do.

[Thomkal]

Okay I have the scan results:

Chief Rum is GOOD!

[Thomkal]

depending on anything Chief Rum wants to tells us, I guess we do need to go after JAG. I keep forgetting that the wolves can win by getting to the center too, so best eliminate one of them even if it means he's the brutal.

[The Jackal]

All moves should be out.

[Thomkal]

and with that, I'm off to lunch

[Chief Rum]

Okay I have the scan results:

Chief Rum is GOOD!

Woohoo! I was really worried.

[nfg22]

Well....sad to see martin go. Im sticking with my JAG vote. Im with DT. Lynch a wolf if you have a wolf. We can always lynch either me or Tyrinth later...

[Danny]

Vote JAG

With Chief Rum cleared, this means the final wolves are one of NTN/Tyrith and one of Render/Abe. Chief Rum if you are the bodyguard and know Render was lying yesterday it might not be a bad idea to reveal that. If the BG doesn't come out we have to assume Abe is the final wolf.

[Danny]

BTW, based on how I see this, I would probably vote for nfg over Tyrith if I had to choose one

[nfg22]

Its NFG. Not NTN...just want to clear the deacon

[Chief Rum]

Vote JAG

With Chief Rum cleared, this means the final wolves are one of NTN/Tyrith and one of Render/Abe. Chief Rum if you are the bodyguard and know Render was lying yesterday it might not be a bad idea to reveal that. If the BG doesn't come out we have to assume Abe is the final wolf.

I am not prepared to reveal at this time.

[nfg22]

BTW, based on how I see this, I would probably vote for nfg over Tyrith if I had to choose one

Why me?

[DaddyTorgo]

Vote JAG

With Chief Rum cleared, this means the final wolves are one of NTN/Tyrith and one of Render/Abe. Chief Rum if you are the bodyguard and know Render was lying yesterday it might not be a bad idea to reveal that. If the BG doesn't come out we have to assume Abe is the final wolf.

are we sure that that's an and? i mean are we sure that JAG+(nfg/tyrith) aren't the last 2 wolves? we didn't get conflicting reveals from abe/chief

[Danny]

I fully believe all roles listed on page one are present in the game.

[Danny]

which means four wolves.

[hoopsguy]

On account of the fact that he is a wolf (for those who want to track vote posts/reasons):

VOTE JAG