Is NaturalMotion really needed? oh, and why APF rules over all football games

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

But we have to remember that none of us have seen natural motion in a football game yet. The real test is in June. If Backbreaker comes and blows the doors off of everything, than it is a completely different argument.

Yep, that's a very important distinction; we have yet to see NaturalMotion applied in a football game. And I'll go even further and say with this being their first time out (Backbreaker devs), it'd be unfair to have really high expectations of what the final product will be. How unfortunate is it that the NFL-exclusivity deal really stunted how football games have developed? And I agree w/everyone's point that ideally we'd want a game that got away from prescripted animations. And the whole issue with physics being applied properly is an important one.

An irritation to me in 2K football games have been the directional control, where as Sage mentioned, you can be taken a few yards in the opposite direction because an animation is trying to play out. But I do think that's an issue that can be refined/lessened by improved transitional animations, which 2K has consistently improved on. But I also look at how well gang tackles are implemented in the game - again, not perfect - but imo are very well done. Because of how player interaction is applied, there are times where you may see two players engaged and a third person involved from either side will affect the outcome appropriately. Not true physics, but not horrible either. I think if not for the huge gap between 2K5 & APF2K8, we would likely see a much more refined animation system with a progression similar to (if not better than) that of NBA2K5 to NBA2K8.

I was just thinking it's an interesting thing to debate. Ideally I'd love to see a true physics system applied to the game myself. BUT, given the situation (with the possibility we won't see another APF, the iffy nature of trying to develop a non-licensed sports game, the Take Two possible buyout) I wanted to make the point that the game, while not perfect, has a helluva lot of good to it. A lot that gets overlooked. And I could see people writing it off just because it doesn't have NaturalMotion. Or just because it doesn't have a franchise mode. Or just because it doesn't redefine Presentation in a football game. The presentation issue is somewhat puzzling, because while it doesn't have true tv-style presentation, what's there is actually pretty good. Halftime & post-game highlights pointing out key plays in either half, with commentary specific to the highlights - something no other sports game is doing to my knowledge. As well as interactive sidelines, better crowd reactions, refs, etc. Which says a lot - a whole lot - about how much Madden/NCAA have been lacking imo. Either way, it's interesting to discuss

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

I think it is needed from the physics side of things. While your videos show great things, they don't show the outlandish things like WR's pancaking linebackers and defensive ends. Quarterbacks dragging 330 lb DT's for four yards just because that's the animation playing out. I've never seen Jerry Rice flatten people like he does in this game. The animations are too scripted for my taste.

While I know those things occur, I wouldn't say they occur frequently. I wasn't trying to purposely hide any of the game's ugly animations. Perhaps because of the way the sliders are tweaked those types of anims are less prevelant. I do agree that with prescripted animations, those are the type of things that can occur. Or particularly, seeing one player "occupy space" with another player regardless of weight differential or taking into account the two player's momentum/velocity. Going forward I'd love to see a blitzing 250lb LB blow up a stationary blocking RB who's 40lbs lighter (and has a low block rating; some RBs are quite good at picking up blitzing LBs). Just was trying to point out that imo the game isn't as lacking as it's portrayed

With that point, there are also other things to consider when talking about pure physics - ratings will also play a huge part. Clinton Portis, as small as he is, frequently pops people on blitzes and in the open field. Heinz Ward is another example. WRs like Terrell Owens have all the physical capabilities in the world but aren't known for being physical when doing anything other than catching passes. Just saying that while pure physics are important, we'd also be asking for ratings and abilities to weigh into the issue.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

While I know those things occur, I wouldn't say they occur frequently. I wasn't trying to purposely hide any of the game's ugly animations. Perhaps because of the way the sliders are tweaked those types of anims are less prevelant. I do agree that with prescripted animations, those are the type of things that can occur. Or particularly, seeing one player "occupy space" with another player regardless of weight differential or taking into account the two player's momentum/velocity. Going forward I'd love to see a blitzing 250lb LB blow up a stationary blocking RB who's 40lbs lighter (and has a low block rating; some RBs are quite good at picking up blitzing LBs). Just was trying to point out that imo the game isn't as lacking as it's portrayed With that point, there are also other things to consider when talking about pure physics - ratings will also play a huge part. Clinton Portis, as small as he is, frequently pops people on blitzes and in the open field. Heinz Ward is another example. WRs like Terrell Owens have all the physical capabilities in the world but aren't known for being physical when doing anything other than catching passes. Just saying that while pure physics are important, we'd also be asking for ratings and abilities to weigh into the issue.

Agreed.

I also don't necessarily like the running animation on offense of the ball carrier. Something doesn't look right abut it. I wouldn't kill the game for it, just something that doesn't look right t me. Defensively, as far as running animations, to me the best one in the game is when Greg Lloyd is chasing. He really looks like he is hauling a$$ trying to prevent you from scoring. Studwell has this running animation and a few others. There is another chase animation that none of the default players have because no one has closing speed, but if you give some closing speed their chase animation looks like they are giving every thing they have. Ahhh but then there is a chase animation that's kinda ugly to me. Bosworth has this one. Very casual looking.


I'm also tired of the playbooks in football games. They are not giving us a great deal of schemes to work with defensively. There should be an entire family of schemes under each coverage. There should be multiple versions of 2 Deep Zone and blitzes out of them. They should have Over the top 3 deep zone blitzes - by over the top I mean 1/4, 1/4, 1/2 and the other CB plays flats. They should have 4 Deep Zone Blitzes. More overload style blitzes that send more than one player into the same gap. They need guys moving around on defense before the snap and timing ect. It's too much micromanagment to set things up and it makes the game more of a chore than fun. Anyways, just rambling.

[Valdarez]

Natural Motion looks interesting, but so far from the hits I have seen, they don't look all that spectacular. They appear very 'rag doll' like, and not like what you see in real football. It's probably because they haven't figured out the physics aspects properly yet (weight, speed, momentum, pivot points).

The ultimate goal that we all want to see is diversity in tackles. Natural Motion definitely meets that goal, but at what cost? Do we lose the ability to see many of cool animations where a player jumps up in the air and make a one handed grab? Or that killer hit where a guy gets picked up and body slammed to the ground?

I think the truth of what we want lies somewhere in the middle of canned animations and full on free flowing physics based movement. Probably along the lines using a physics based engine for most of the game play, but then has canned animations that execute within a given context for some of the more spectacular hits, tackles, sacks, fumbles, and interceptions. This would allow the game to be less repetitive during normal play, and still provide those 'wow' moments.

[myownsun]

Thanks for the videos

[murry]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Natural Motion looks interesting, but so far from the hits I have seen, they don't look all that spectacular. They appear very 'rag doll' like, and not like what you see in real football. It's probably because they haven't figured out the physics aspects properly yet (weight, speed, momentum, pivot points). The ultimate goal that we all want to see is diversity in tackles. Natural Motion definitely meets that goal, but at what cost? Do we lose the ability to see many of cool animations where a player jumps up in the air and make a one handed grab? Or that killer hit where a guy gets picked up and body slammed to the ground? I think the truth of what we want lies somewhere in the middle of canned animations and full on free flowing physics based movement. Probably along the lines using a physics based engine for most of the game play, but then has canned animations that execute within a given context for some of the more spectacular hits, tackles, sacks, fumbles, and interceptions. This would allow the game to be less repetitive during normal play, and still provide those 'wow' moments.

I agree.

Could someone please explain how a true physics based engine would work with the legends concept? It would have been impossible to implement a true physics based engine with legends, and have them perform like legends. It appears that 2K decided against that, and tried to use more animations, and momentum (and did a pretty good job).

If you have noticed, many of the legends in the game are undersized for their positions due to the era they played in. After you notice that many legends are undersized, now compare them to some of the generic players (size wise). Most generic linemen and other positions are somewhat the size of present day players. A true physics based engine would render many of the legends useless.

If you think about it, maybe that is why the bull-rush does not work. Maybe they found that since they have a limited physics based engine; that bigger defensive lineman would easily bull-rush o-line legends that are smaller. All the technique in the world will not stop a 350 lb d-lineman if you are 254 lbs.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that Natural Motion accounts for weight and etc...If that is the case, then I understand why APF 2K8 does not have Natural Motion. I agree that it looks good, but I am a little skeptical about it. Some of those ragdoll animations looked a bit arcade like to me. I am looking forward to see how it really works this fall.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by murry

If you have noticed, many of the legends in the game are undersized for their positions due to the era they played in. After you notice that many legends are undersized, now compare them to some of the generic players (size wise). Most generic linemen and other positions are somewhat the size of present day players. A true physics based engine would render many of the legends useless.

Interesting viewpoint, hadn't thought about that. I guess that's where ratings would have to factor into the equation more. It's difficult for any of us to say how the tech will be applied until we see it. From what I've read about GTA4, it's subtle yet much more appreciated when you realize the players in the world have a real "weight" to them. I think an example where people would want to see it applied in football games is when you have a pulling 300lb+ tackle or guard bearing down on some 190lb defensive back - in most instances in real life you'd see the DB obliterated or the DB take out the lineman's legs to take him out of the play.

This is where I see APF as doing a decent job currently, and perhaps getting better, without NaturalMotion. I don't know how the game is programmed obviously, and I'll have to attach more movies as examples - but I think the game does a decent job at rendering the situation above so that the desired outcome takes place. As already stated, one area the APF doesn't do a good job in is being able to upend a player, or with the mid-air contact - it usually goes into some prescripted animation that results in the player just being tackled or hit in a way that results in a tackle (video on previous page where the receiver is spun around). Here's an example I posted months ago (pre-patch):



Initially I recorded it because I thought it was a cool play. But it would've been even cooler if the DB had taken out Rice's legs from under him, instead of the sort of "meld into a tackle" animation that occurred. Again, looks cool, but would've looked even cooler if those types of collisions were rendered differently. With NaturalMotion, I assume Rice would've had his legs taken out from under him and I guess everything rendered on the fly. But they could take the Madden/NCAA approach and have animations called appropriately (if that's what's occurring - Madden's mid-air collisions are too over the top for my tastes). Either way, I think it's little nuances like that people feel would add more to the overall experience.

[JRod]

Dynamic tackling could only help this game.


But here's where I say NaturalMotion helping the game, after the initial mo-capped animation.

The first animation is usually spot on but if you get more than a 2 guys on the play than it reverts back to videogame silliness, where one guy might whiff a tackle, or run straight into the play and fall down.

NFL 2k and APF 2k, have been leaders in animation. When NFL 2k (XB) looks organic and Madden (360) looks like a game you know that the engine is strong. I think there needs to be the ability to have a physics engine with no limit to how many players can be in on a play.

If someone gets stood up on the line and a 1 burly OL comes in to to push the pile, that would be neat. Or I think this is also very important where speed and momentum truly displayed. If you have LT (or Okoye) running at full speed into a LB who isn't squared up, you should see that player drive right though the tackler. He might not get away but his momentum should carry him forward maybe 4-6 yards. That's not possibly with 2k current engine. It registers a animation that doesn't quite take into account momentum.

I think that's what natural motion will bring to the table. I'm worried that at first it will be ragdoll football.