THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

[ActLikeYouCrow]

going off on a tangent, reggie bush also didnt face a single good defense en route to his heisman

Quote: Originally Posted by hcopenhagenh

But the entire game is an exploit isn't it? Hitches are money against any defense. Flat WR is open. Deep WR is open. Just about any route is open against any defense. We haven't even gotten into the TE and RB routes which are money. This game is not "sim". You have to have a 100 rules to make the game "sim". With that being said, your view of "sim" is incorrect sir, because every offensive pass play is an exploit.

We don't know what the money plays are this year.

I agree that PA passes in 09 were money, but hitches/flats/deep passes could be defended in 09.

The game will have some money plays, it always will. Being sim is not exploiting strictly a handful of plays to your advantage.

Honestly I could be viewed as a cheeser on defense because I like to only pick a handful of plays. In 09 you needed as much speed as possible on the field at all times (or at least I felt this way) to compete so I ran most of my plays with 3 or 4 CB's.

Oh and I agree that it's bad sportmanship to go for it in absurd situations, but I thought that was a given.

I know the game will have exploits, and my simple view is that if you continuously exploit the flaws you are not a sim player.

I don't try and get stats perfect anymore, because that battle is long and tedious.

[Cubone_Jones]

I really agree with most of your thoughts, but this is where I really struggle with the sim philosophy. This happens from time to time, and I am terribly torn in matters like this:

I will play a whole game sim, and things are sooo incredibly realistic, but it is a very tight game, and it comes down to a hail mary. Now, I am a good button pusher, and can User Catch with the best of them. In past versions of NCAA I could score on the deep bomb atleast 75% of the time.

Is throwing the deep ball and user catching it against sim? The play would be called in that situation, and I'm just doing what I can on the field ONE play to win it all.

My solution was a bit discouraging, but I would throw it and let the computer try to catch it. I figured user catching was exploiting the game, and couldn't win that way. Am I thinking right?

[VolPett]

Quote: Originally Posted by stewaat

Here is how I view "sim" - If you exploit the game in any way, you are not sim. I think it is as easy as that.

1a - If you exploit the game in any way, you are not sim.
1b - If you don't see it on Saturdays then don't do it on-line.

[sfc415]

Sim to me is just playing football how it is supposed to be played, and not exploiting cpu flaws that can allow things to happen in a game that wouldn't really happen in real life. Now the Qb running has been a huge problem since EA made it where you can pull down the passing icons and sprint with the qb but it is only a problem because people are not using it how it really is used. Yea Vick, Tebow etc may break a couple of runs in a game but when you have players pick a pass play where recievers run down the field and then just sprint with the qb every play and runs around or throws it up all the way across the field on the run and still completes 70% of passes and runs for over 150 yards with the qb thats cheese. Also in reality the way people run with the QB he would take big hits all the time and get hurt. It gets even worse when they put a WR or RB at qb and he still throws perfect passes on the run and completes them at a high rate. Now that is cheese

Another major problem is the no-huddle true that is real life football but again people use it wrong and take advantage of flaws in a computer game. For example running the goalline fullback dive that play can get up to 7 yards a play and people run that all way down the field no huddle. Now that is cheese, no-huddle isn't cheese but just misusing turns it into cheese

[sportzbro]

I believe the quality of gameplay & AI play a huge role in making a game more sim...

If the game doesn't play like real football in the first place, how is anyone supposed to play it like real football?

Perfect example: The spread option purposely doesn't work correctly because O-Lineman leaving certain defenders unblocked would apparently cause big problems to the AI.. so they don't risk tweaking it.

The game is broken.

[GetYaWeigtUp]

Quote: Originally Posted by Moostache

1) No-huddle offense on incomplete pass...the entire point of the hurry-up offense is to conserve clock or limit defensive subs...it is NOT to see what the defense is in (from the "god" camera angle / Offensive Coordinator view) and then IMMEDIATELY call the SAME play off an incompletion (just because you saw that the FS was out of position and threw to the wrong guy the first time)...VERDICT? ---> CHEDDAR! 2) Refusing to punt the ball in obvious punting situations...I had a guy going fo it on 4th and 32 from his own 12 yard line...on the opening drive of the game! When I paused and messaged "?", his reply was "I do not punt"...of course, he DOES quit...which was done before half time. There is NOTHING "sim" about this style of player and while there are times in games that going for it on 4th down IS OK or even the only "sim" thing to do...that is not a one size fits all label! VERDICT --> SWISS!

I agree with the no huddle in that instance but lets not forget that teams run the no huddle all the time and we shouldnt get the NO HUDDLE offense, confused with the HURRY UP offense. Hurry up is usually used when trying to get quicker scores, but sometimes teams like Oklahoma will do it all game to catch the defense unprepared.

The NO HUDDLE offense is used to keep the defense off guard but not quite the same pace. Usually its just a normal pace without a huddle. Teams do this so they can signal plays in from the sidelines and to keep the defense off guard. I also believe they have a new rule where if the offense goes no huddle, you cant make a sub on defense unless they make sub, but I could be wrong. But I thought I heard the commentators saying that in an OU game last season.

I wish EA would implement a no huddle offense where you would have maybe a limited package of formations and plays to choose from on the fly. The game has evolved into, why not bring it to the video game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Captain Mallow

When talent is within the same universe, coaching (playcalling) wins the day. Of course it depends on what you mean by 'talent', but as Coach Bum Phillips once said, 'coaching is beating his with yours then turning around and beating yours with his'. Florida underperformed with strong talent until Myer got there and instituted a clever offensive system. Mike Leach is the Dr. Frankenstein of football; he runs a rather clever offense, not merely the same play over and over. Take Leach and put him at Miami and the Hurricanes are in the title hunt the past five years instead of hoping for a third tier bowl game on the smurf turf. History is full of weaker teams upsetting better teams with clever preparation and play calling. To put a finer point on this sim vs not-sim thing, if a play is working in a college football video game because of the programming (glitch, quirk, or shortcoming) then that's NOT simming. If it's working time and time again because one team has better blockers and RBs than the defense has defenders, then it reflects a certain level of realism. But as long as there is physical human input (controllers) into how the players react on the video field, then it will never truly be sim.

I can refute that entire argument by giving the example of Charlie Weiss. He took Tom Brady and NE's offense to a whole new level with less talent than they have now, to a SB and won it. Then he goes to ND and turns Brady Quinn into a 1st Rd pick and won 10 games. Their offense was as dynamic as it had ever been, with Quinn at QB, and his WRs.

I think its safe to say Weiss is a great offensive mind and coach, but hasnt done a thing without that talent he had back in 05-06. He doesnt have a Brady Quinn, or a Jeff Somardja or Mo Stovall at WR anymore and it shows. He doesnt have 1st Rd TEs or OL anymore and it shows. Sp did Weiss all of a sudden forget how to coach? He has the same system, with highly rated HS players? No, he just doesnt have that same talent he used to have. Its safe to say the players he does have arent as good yet. We'll see if they can step up to that level because they were pretty young, but its put up or shutup time for him.

So I believe if you ask any coach in America, they'll tell you talent wins, thats why they go out and recruit the top guys so hard, or why they try to find diamonds in the rough. Everyone is looking for the next Pat White, or Vince Young, or Reggie Bush. Those kind of players win you titles. They make you look better as a coach and make coaching easier.

Of course they all have playcalling skills and all that, and feel their system will excel with the right players, but they know that having better players make it work better. If talent was as important, we wouldnt see schools cheating to get the good players. Coaches would feel they can coach up anyone, but in all actuality they know they cant so they cheat to get the good ones sometimes.

[WolverinesFinest]

Quote: Originally Posted by VolPett

1a - If you exploit the game in any way, you are not sim. 1b - If you don't see it on Saturdays then don't do it on-line.

That's the thing though. Some things that happen on saturdays are considered not sim to some people.