Athlete all Ds

[therealslimshady]

My popcorn tastes good.....

Side bar - I hate that Athletes do not count towards your positional needs. We all know what position they will play prior to recruiting them, so why doesnt it count?

[Brutal_Package]

I think it should be in the middle as far as speed goes. Speed should go down at some point if they add on too many pounds. I can tell you that if some of the smaller DEs or TEs added 30-40 pounds of mass over their college football career that they are likely to either not get any faster or they will get slower.

However, on the plus side, they are going to get stronger, have a stronger release, and better blocking if they're on the offensive side of the ball; on defense, they'll (again) be stronger, shed blocks more easily, have more power behind their hits, and would be better at tackling. This is of course if weight mattered.

So if a recruit weighs 270 pounds and has a 94 SPD then that is fine, but once he adds 30 pounds he probably won't be as quick. Ideally, the loss/gain of attributes should be determined by the user in the off-season/pre-season.

Perhaps, add a mechanic that let's you choose what a player will specialize in between different skill-sets:

Athleticism (SPD, AGI, ACC)
Receiver Skills (catching, catch-in-traffic, release, route running), Running Skills (ball-carrier vision, elusiveness, spin/juke/stiff-arm, trucking)
Blocking (strength, impact blocking, pass block, pass block footwork, pass block strength, run block, run block footwork, run block strength)
Pass-rushing/run-stopping skills (strength, block shedding, finesse moves, power moves, tackling, hit power)
Coverage Skills (Play recognition, man coverage, zone coverage, press)
Kicking Skills (kick power, kick accuracy)
Quarterback Skill (throw power, throw accuracy)

This would affect our 270 pound, 94 SPD DE/TE by letting us choose on what he needs to work on. Maybe he has 94 speed but we want to improve his core lineman skills in order for him to get pressure on the quarterback. We would see an improvement to those skills and perhaps a light drop-off in speed, agility, and acceleration as he builds strength to move the blockers around. Perhaps this player we recruit as a DE is moved to LOLB or a ROLB because our D-Line is full and we run a 3-4. This DE-turned-ROLB might need to train-up in coverage skills which would be vital for his team.

Now of course there would need to be balance to all of this. You couldn't improve someone's speed by 10 points over their career as that would get a little ridiculous. The progression would need to be somewhere near where it is currently so we're not turning mediocre quarterbacks/kickers/halfbacks into 99 OVR all-americans by their junior/senior year.

The progression of skills could go along quite nicely if coupled with weight progression. If you focus a receiver or halfback's training in athleticism then he will gain a decent amount of weight (10 pounds, perhaps?). If that same player was at an average weight for his height and position, then he might gain less weight (~5 pounds, maybe less). Now if we have a big hefty up there like a TE or a DE who is tipping the scales at around 260 then he should be shedding pounds.

Of course, this whole system is based off weight mattering and strength being a modifier for other abilities such as power moves, blocking, stiff-arm, break tackle, hit power, tackling, throw power, and press/release.

[invisiblespoon]

The Athlete system is definitely broken. As others have said, the ATH is supposed to be a guy who can play multiple positions, not a guy who is a 71 HB, and a 72 WR.

Also he's not supposed to be a 6'2 212lb DT.

Yet another issue I'd love to see EA get together for next year.

[blkrptnt819]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutal_Package

I think it should be in the middle as far as speed goes. Speed should go down at some point if they add on too many pounds. I can tell you that if some of the smaller DEs or TEs added 30-40 pounds of mass over their college football career that they are likely to either not get any faster or they will get slower. However, on the plus side, they are going to get stronger, have a stronger release, and better blocking if they're on the offensive side of the ball; on defense, they'll (again) be stronger, shed blocks more easily, have more power behind their hits, and would be better at tackling. This is of course if weight mattered. So if a recruit weighs 270 pounds and has a 94 SPD then that is fine, but once he adds 30 pounds he probably won't be as quick. Ideally, the loss/gain of attributes should be determined by the user in the off-season/pre-season. Perhaps, add a mechanic that let's you choose what a player will specialize in between different skill-sets: Athleticism (SPD, AGI, ACC) Receiver Skills (catching, catch-in-traffic, release, route running), Running Skills (ball-carrier vision, elusiveness, spin/juke/stiff-arm, trucking) Blocking (strength, impact blocking, pass block, pass block footwork, pass block strength, run block, run block footwork, run block strength) Pass-rushing/run-stopping skills (strength, block shedding, finesse moves, power moves, tackling, hit power) Coverage Skills (Play recognition, man coverage, zone coverage, press) Kicking Skills (kick power, kick accuracy) Quarterback Skill (throw power, throw accuracy) This would affect our 270 pound, 94 SPD DE/TE by letting us choose on what he needs to work on. Maybe he has 94 speed but we want to improve his core lineman skills in order for him to get pressure on the quarterback. We would see an improvement to those skills and perhaps a light drop-off in speed, agility, and acceleration as he builds strength to move the blockers around. Perhaps this player we recruit as a DE is moved to LOLB or a ROLB because our D-Line is full and we run a 3-4. This DE-turned-ROLB might need to train-up in coverage skills which would be vital for his team. Now of course there would need to be balance to all of this. You couldn't improve someone's speed by 10 points over their career as that would get a little ridiculous. The progression would need to be somewhere near where it is currently so we're not turning mediocre quarterbacks/kickers/halfbacks into 99 OVR all-americans by their junior/senior year. The progression of skills could go along quite nicely if coupled with weight progression. If you focus a receiver or halfback's training in athleticism then he will gain a decent amount of weight (10 pounds, perhaps?). If that same player was at an average weight for his height and position, then he might gain less weight (~5 pounds, maybe less). Now if we have a big hefty up there like a TE or a DE who is tipping the scales at around 260 then he should be shedding pounds. Of course, this whole system is based off weight mattering and strength being a modifier for other abilities such as power moves, blocking, stiff-arm, break tackle, hit power, tackling, throw power, and press/release.

Only thing is ppl can gain weight and strength without losing speed. I agree it needs to be under user control. I don't want them gaining weight and sacrificing speed.

[Brutal_Package]

I'm just a little skeptical that a body can move forward at the same speed with additional weight on it. Granted, if the legs are stronger than that would make sense. If the guy just gets stacked in his upper-body his 40 time probably won't be as fast. Not saying he goes from 94 speed to 89 or something. But maybe a point or even two if he gains a lot of weight.

[blkrptnt819]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutal_Package

I'm just a little skeptical that a body can move forward at the same speed with additional weight on it. Granted, if the legs are stronger than that would make sense. If the guy just gets stacked in his upper-body his 40 time probably won't be as fast. Not saying he goes from 94 speed to 89 or something. But maybe a point or even two if he gains a lot of weight.

As long as the user has some control. I don't want to lose team speed if i can help it.

[speedtrucker]

Quote: Originally Posted by blkrptnt819

NO! Attributes shouldn't mysteriously drop just because of a position change. Players change positions all the time especially athletes! They go back and forth. If they have those skills they have those skills. The only thing that should start low is AWR. 205 lbs athlete's attributes should not equal DE and if it does weight should have to be gained at some pace to make the a viable option at that position.

why wouldn't they drop?

I'll use my alma mater, Texas, as an example.

Sergio Kindle came to Texas as a highly recruited LB but he was also a top state RB. Texas used him at LB, never once getting a carry. I wouldn't expect his RB skills to be as sharp in his sophmore-senior seasons, those "skills" would degrade.

John Chiles, in 2007, was recruited to Texas as a QB but in '09 he was switched to WR. his QB skills dropped greatly as his WR abilities grew, so much in fact that when he ran trick plays where he had to pass he actually looked pretty bad.

Chris Whaley, in '09, was a top 4* RB recruited to Texas. his weight was a problem as was his actual running ability... after a redshirt freshman season, his rs-frosh year saw him get action in 11 games but only 4 at RB in spot duty. his sophmore('11) season he was moved to DT and now is showing real signs of improvement where as I can tell you his RB skills are now useless/gone.

this current recruiting class contains Orlando Thomas, he was a RB/DB his senior season. he was recruited as an ATH to texas, he will spend most of his days at Texas as a DB. I can tell you that if he does become a DB that his skills as a RB will diminish.

just a few examples of players that moved/switched positions and saw skill sets go up while others went down.

seems like once you choose a position for an ATH or even move a player during the off-season that they should have some skill degradation while other skills might improve. the idea of a position coach/ strength & condition program change.

[blkrptnt819]

Quote: Originally Posted by speedtrucker

why wouldn't they drop? I'll use my alma mater, Texas, as an example. Sergio Kindle came to Texas as a highly recruited LB but he was also a top state RB. Texas used him at LB, never once getting a carry. I wouldn't expect his RB skills to be as sharp in his sophmore-senior seasons, those "skills" would degrade. John Chiles, in 2007, was recruited to Texas as a QB but in '09 he was switched to WR. his QB skills dropped greatly as his WR abilities grew, so much in fact that when he ran trick plays where he had to pass he actually looked pretty bad. Chris Whaley, in '09, was a top 4* RB recruited to Texas. his weight was a problem as was his actual running ability... after a redshirt freshman season, his rs-frosh year saw him get action in 11 games but only 4 at RB in spot duty. his sophmore('11) season he was moved to DT and now is showing real signs of improvement where as I can tell you his RB skills are now useless/gone. this current recruiting class contains Orlando Thomas, he was a RB/DB his senior season. he was recruited as an ATH to texas, he will spend most of his days at Texas as a DB. I can tell you that if he does become a DB that his skills as a RB will diminish. just a few examples of players that moved/switched positions and saw skill sets go up while others went down. seems like once you choose a position for an ATH or even move a player during the off-season that they should have some skill degradation while other skills might improve. the idea of a position coach/ strength & condition program change.

Lets say I come in as a WR and got switched to DB. Will i not be able to catch as well? No, I'd get balls other dbs wouldnt be able to catch. If I play LB is bigger, sronger faster not the expectation when I leave? I wouldn't force on weight I would let it happen naturally