Online Cheese

[capp34]

Quote: Originally Posted by OMT

Please post all you can. If you don't want to "tip off" others into trying them out, you can PM me them as well.

Rick james is SO FUNNY he only mentioned the cheeses that he cant stop but fails to mention all the glitches and cheeses he uses.

Most QB cheeses can be stopped by having fatigue playing more of a factor.
If a player sprints 15 to 20 yards every play the QB should be tired and make horrible throws.

[Moostache]

Quote: Originally Posted by OMT

We want to know cheese and "dumb" as you call it. Of course, you guys can always PM me exploits (so as not to post it so others figure out how to do it and make it worse).

The "dumb" play was previously addressed by implementing "fair play" rules for online games. The problem was that the fair play rules were too restrictive and did not take into account the fact that sometimes situations REQUIRE teams to do thins like go for it on 4th down when they are down 18 points in the 3rd quarter of a game with only 3 possessions per quarter on average...

I would LOVE to see a return of the online fair play rules with the following guidelines:

1) do not allow onside kicks in the first half period
2) only allow onside kicks when a player is down 17+ points at any time in the second half (ie. MORE than 2 possessions + 2 x 2pt plays)
3) force players to punt the ball on their own side of the field on any 4th down greater than 4th and 2.
4) allow the "fair play" rules to be over-rode in the 4th quarters of a game....figure that 90% of the time people who PLAY into the 4th quarter woul dbe more likely to FINISH the game anyway...
5) IF a player quits or is disconnected in an online game, allow the remaining player to offer a "reconnect" (would require some kind of online game saves though)...if declined, then grant them the win without playing and give the other person the loss.

As for the other things - out-of-position players trying to use the "speed advantage", QB's scrambling and throwing with accuracy regardless, etc. - take the approach of applying PENALTIES to these behaviors that stop allowing the game to be broken via bad decisions!

Specific Issue #1: If a QB rolls back and keeps going, not only would I like to see:

1) Passing Icons disappear or become scrambled and have to "reset" once the QB STOPS running and resets his feet...otherwise, those throws should have a 1-in-10 chance of success instead of a 1-in-10 chance of failure....STOP REWARDING this "tactic" in the game alraedy....the MAIN reason people continue to do it is that it continues to WORK in unrealistic percentages and in unrealistic manners.

2) Institute FAR MORE penalties against the offense when this behavior is used...more holding calls, more clipping calls, more illegal man downfield calls - in essence, put the things from the REAL sport, which PREVENT such tactics from being part of the game we all watch, into effect in the game. I guarantee that if scrambling like a chicken with its head cut off resulted in negative plays 75% of the time someone tried it (INTs, penalties, sacks, injuries, etc.) that we would stop seeing it pretty quickly...

3) When players out of position are placed at QB, their ratings should reflect this in performance and potential...if some douch-bag wants to run their WR at QB, then fine, but he should be prone to fumbles on running plays and should throw the ball as badly as the HB's used to throw on HB option passes in Madden NFL 2005 and 2006! Again, if something that is blatantly NOT part of "normal" football (or even "rational" football for that matter) is made much harder to generate even modest success, you'll see a lot fewer people use it.

In short, if the decision is REALLY made to remove this type of gameplay then it needs to be implemented in a very real way inside the mechanics of the game's risk-vs.-reward logic...things like pocket presence and throwing to WRs on their break and getting the timing of a passing route down would be FAR MORE IMPORATANT than the JUMP rating or the WR or the SPEED rating of the QB...

Its sometimes as if EA/Tiburon has caught "scout-itis" - that condition that makes otherwise intelligent people check their brains at the door, and fall in love with a player's "measurables" instead of their ACTUAL FOOTBALL ABILITY. This condition is hardly isolated to EA/Tiburon guys though...GM's lose their jobs over it (well, unless they are named Matt Millen that is) and fantasy drafts are LOADED with guys who draft foolishly for that game...I just maintain that until the game is rebalanced to reward those "real football" actionsover and above the circus sideshow stuff, we won't see any meaningful changes in the online game (or the head-to-head game against a real knucklehead)...

[Moostache]

One thing I forgot to comment on above was this:

Some of the biggest frustration in playing against these "cheesers" is NOT that what they do is so ridiculous, its that they can KEEP doing it because they only need this stuff to work 1 in 4 attempts basically.

With no "fair play" options and no restrictions - and no penalty for quitting really (I believe that anyone who quits a game should be locked out of playing another online game for 30 minutes; or at least until the other player either finishes the game, quits it ot starts a new game too....its too easy for people to start games and quit once things aren't going well) the fact is that the MOST annoying aspect of online play is often the fact that you will come across a player who is going to cheese it up and either one of two things will happen:

- they get lucky and hit on their success rate greater than 1 in 4 and score a few lucky TDs to allow the game to get beyond halftime....(or they are really good at their timing and are able to beat another player on reflexes and repetitions alone)

or

- they get shut down with early turnovers or stops of their pet-cheese and then they quit the game anyway...most times to go and immediately start up another game against someone else while the player who was quit on has to either also quit (and waste their time on a "tie" / "no-count") or play the game out against the CPU.

THAT element of the online game can be even more of a turn-off to newer players than getting "cheesed"...the ability of people to quit games with pretty much zero consequence is a cancer on online gaming in general.

I have often thought that another way to control or eliminate that (at least on XBL) would be to force players to put up "credits" to play online...as long as they finish the games, those XBL points or credits woul dbe returned to their account and not be charged, BUT if they quit a match early and attempted to start another match before the results of the first one are official, they would be charged the credits/XBL points....probably WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too many hurdles for THAT to ever work, but I would love to see it nonetheless!!!

[VWarrior]

Quote: Originally Posted by Moostache

The "dumb" play was previously addressed by implementing "fair play" rules for online games. The problem was that the fair play rules were too restrictive and did not take into account the fact that sometimes situations REQUIRE teams to do thins like go for it on 4th down when they are down 18 points in the 3rd quarter of a game with only 3 possessions per quarter on average... I would LOVE to see a return of the online fair play rules with the following guidelines: 1) do not allow onside kicks in the first half period 2) only allow onside kicks when a player is down 17+ points at any time in the second half (ie. MORE than 2 possessions + 2 x 2pt plays) 3) force players to punt the ball on their own side of the field on any 4th down greater than 4th and 2. 4) allow the "fair play" rules to be over-rode in the 4th quarters of a game....figure that 90% of the time people who PLAY into the 4th quarter woul dbe more likely to FINISH the game anyway... 5) IF a player quits or is disconnected in an online game, allow the remaining player to offer a "reconnect" (would require some kind of online game saves though)...if declined, then grant them the win without playing and give the other person the loss. As for the other things - out-of-position players trying to use the "speed advantage", QB's scrambling and throwing with accuracy regardless, etc. - take the approach of applying PENALTIES to these behaviors that stop allowing the game to be broken via bad decisions! Specific Issue #1: If a QB rolls back and keeps going, not only would I like to see: 1) Passing Icons disappear or become scrambled and have to "reset" once the QB STOPS running and resets his feet...otherwise, those throws should have a 1-in-10 chance of success instead of a 1-in-10 chance of failure....STOP REWARDING this "tactic" in the game alraedy....the MAIN reason people continue to do it is that it continues to WORK in unrealistic percentages and in unrealistic manners. 2) Institute FAR MORE penalties against the offense when this behavior is used...more holding calls, more clipping calls, more illegal man downfield calls - in essence, put the things from the REAL sport, which PREVENT such tactics from being part of the game we all watch, into effect in the game. I guarantee that if scrambling like a chicken with its head cut off resulted in negative plays 75% of the time someone tried it (INTs, penalties, sacks, injuries, etc.) that we would stop seeing it pretty quickly... 3) When players out of position are placed at QB, their ratings should reflect this in performance and potential...if some douch-bag wants to run their WR at QB, then fine, but he should be prone to fumbles on running plays and should throw the ball as badly as the HB's used to throw on HB option passes in Madden NFL 2005 and 2006! Again, if something that is blatantly NOT part of "normal" football (or even "rational" football for that matter) is made much harder to generate even modest success, you'll see a lot fewer people use it. In short, if the decision is REALLY made to remove this type of gameplay then it needs to be implemented in a very real way inside the mechanics of the game's risk-vs.-reward logic...things like pocket presence and throwing to WRs on their break and getting the timing of a passing route down would be FAR MORE IMPORATANT than the JUMP rating or the WR or the SPEED rating of the QB... Its sometimes as if EA/Tiburon has caught "scout-itis" - that condition that makes otherwise intelligent people check their brains at the door, and fall in love with a player's "measurables" instead of their ACTUAL FOOTBALL ABILITY. This condition is hardly isolated to EA/Tiburon guys though...GM's lose their jobs over it (well, unless they are named Matt Millen that is) and fantasy drafts are LOADED with guys who draft foolishly for that game...I just maintain that until the game is rebalanced to reward those "real football" actionsover and above the circus sideshow stuff, we won't see any meaningful changes in the online game (or the head-to-head game against a real knucklehead)...

Those are excellent suggestions, not just because it would indeed give the cheese a true sense of high risk for the reward, but also because the risks are very realistic.

If a QB, especially a pocket passer is scrambling all over the place, fatigue is going to come into play and it can affect his pass accuracy (and really IRL, his decision-making from all the frantic evasion)

If a QB is 15+ yards behind the line of scrimmage, especially if his back is turned to the receivers getting there, he's not gonna know exactly where the receivers are as soon as he turns around (unless he has quite an intimate sense of every receiver route on the play and the amount of time it'd take each of his receivers to run them). Moreover it just looks quite bad when it does happen (a QB with his back turned for 3-5 seconds turns around and immediately launches a pass accurately to a receiver). So again, its quite a realistic solution to make the receiver icons vanish until until the QB turns back around and has at least a second or two to spot where his receivers are, and this could be done regardless if he has reset his feet. At this point, if the QB is still moving as he turns his head back around and scans the field, then he should be able to throw a (probably bad) pass, one that is likely to get picked off considering how far the ball has to travel giving the the defense plenty of time to react. However, if his feet are reset, then the throw should be more accurate, but still risky (again because of the sheer amount of time the ball is in the air).

That just my extra little tiny .02 on that. I agree with everything said here. Again, these risks are very fair because they are realistic, and if the probability is implemented correctly, then it will sufficiently (and consistently)punish the cheesers for being cheesy. You can't get away with it in real life, and they'll quickly learn the same goes for your simulation.

In short, if cheesers learn that consistently relying on their tactics will result in consistently shooting themselves in the foot, then those tactics will die a fast death. So simulate these risks to affect the game and the players in the same way they do in real life. It will also help minimize the feeling of "artificial" gameplay constraints, thus minimize the number of valid complaints that come of them.

[Pared]

The QB 20 yd drop will continue to be a problem until the DE AI is re-worked. They need to get up the field and contain the QB, forcing the QB to step up a majority of the time they have more than 4 seconds to make a pass.

[Russell_SCEA]

Quote:

The QB 20 yd drop will continue to be a problem until the DE AI is re-worked. They need to get up the field and contain the QB, forcing the QB to step up a majority of the time they have more than 4 seconds to make a pass.

Thats fine and all but the root source of the problem is the speed at which QB's drop back in the game. Its just to damn fast the pressure just doesn't get there when its supposed to and jonny little hotsticks can just continue to drop back and avoid the rush every single time.

Once Tiburon fixes the speed of the QB drop back this issue shouldn't be a problem.

[VWarrior]

Quote: Originally Posted by Moostache

I have often thought that another way to control or eliminate that (at least on XBL) would be to force players to put up "credits" to play online...as long as they finish the games, those XBL points or credits woul dbe returned to their account and not be charged, BUT if they quit a match early and attempted to start another match before the results of the first one are official, they would be charged the credits/XBL points....probably WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too many hurdles for THAT to ever work, but I would love to see it nonetheless!!!

I agree something at least somewhat significant has to be threatened to truly effectively discourage quitting, but I highly doubt there is any chance of convincing Microsoft to allow someone to force a subscriber to put money up for collateral to play a game. Oh yeah, i'm sure it'll work at least to an extent, but thats not gonna happen.

What I feel is a much safer, more likely to be allowed, yet still effective method is to force each player to have their reputation floating over there heads no matter where they go. I'm not sure if this is done currently now not, but every player should have an easily accessible history of the number of games they've played to completion and as well the number of games they've quit. the more games you quit, the worse your reputation gets. That way, if you're about to hook up with someone, and you see his/her reputation for reliable match-ups is poor, look elsewhere. If you're hosting a game and someone joins with a reputation too poor for you standards, boot the player. Heck, you could even just set some minimum reputation "level" for someone to be able to connect to you in the first place.

That would definitely discourage quitting, IMO. That way, a player knows every time they quit a game, it will become that much harder to play another. If they quit too many, they may find themselves unable to play online at all. I think thats harsh enough to establish the proper fear/risk of quitting, while being very fair at the same time.

[kardashian]

Look as far as this cheese play is concerned, this is all you have to fix:

Make it so no ONE passing route/user catch works 100% of the time vs every type of coverage or any where close 100%.

Thats what jetpacking, SPC, strafe catches, HB/WR screens have in common. They work TOO much, UNREALISTICALLY, and theres no "AI" counter for them.

Fix all these passing gimmicks and the game will be 10/10.

It seems that from the demo we can click on fast enough, can jump high enough to stop the jetpack, SPC, and strafe catches.

There should be no type of pass that FORCES manual coverage every time, because then guess what? they will do it to the left, and to the right, and unfortunately i dont have 4 hands and two controllers on defense... so all that has to go for perfect gameplay.

The only thing I worry about now is the screens. Just like purple zones should stop out routes and corners, just how flat routes should stop flat patterns (and some screens), MAN defense needs to stop ALL types of screens. A LB manned up to a RB should chase him down through the whole process and jump on his back as soon as he catches it.

When you can run HB slip down the whole field vs the AI, Houston; we have a problem. Nothing in the book should ever work vs. every type of coverage like that.

PLEASE make sure that MAN defense stops every type of screen on all american and heisman, for this is the only gameplay flaw i can see from playing the demo. Everything else is on point and I commend the NCAA producer for for a job well done for the most part.