Poll: Should strikes that are blocked cost more stamina?

[ZombieRommel]

Quote: Originally Posted by bmlimo

Man you still didn’t get my point... I use all the tactics that u describe I’m a outside player... what I’m saying is that over agressive guys should lose more stamina by their fault not because the other player force them... u have to see a big picture here... if u using a mid/low tier fighter u will agree that headmovement and lunges are dangerous to use because of their limited stamina and skills, Imagine now you with those limitations against an over agressive cormier, or mcg, or ciganothat just throw non stop in your guard... and any wrong sway or lunge delay u get rocked... they will not loose to much stamina and maybe you will lose the same amount as them if they use some body shots too... remember they can be over agressive and sway/body punch too so they can also drain your stamina too

I get your point. I wouldn't mind adjusting the stamina ratings on certain fighters downward (Cormier comes to mind) or the higher altitude perks (Diaz bros). But outside of a few fighters, it's not an issue.

I play as Aldo at FW and I gas aggressive McGregor players very easily.

All of these result in stamina drain:

• Whiffed strikes
• Slipped strikes
• Lunged strikes
• Body shots
• Rocks
• Knockdowns

I get that you think activity is still too high, and to some extent I agree. But I don't think the answer is a universal block tax. Initiating offense as anyone who already has bad cardio would be a horrific endeavor.

If anyone skilled leverages all the tools above, it's already easy to gas most fighters. Diaz bros, Bisping, Cormier are the exceptions. Instead of arguing for a universal block tax, I would argue to sanitize the stamina ratings of the outlier fighters that spammers like to pick.

That said, wild aggression right now is already EXTREMELY dangerous.

• Planted strikes incur no additional vuln.
• Forward moving strikes incur vuln.
• Planted strikes come out as fast possible.
• Forward moving strikes have more startup and recovery frames.
• Planted strikes come out positive in same-strike trades.
• Forward moving strikes come out negative in same-strike trades.

And in this patch we have a lightning fast slip straight AND the R1+R2 retreat AND a back lunge that cannot be interrupted by strikes.

Are there seriously not enough tools to counter aggression? I was rank 14 on the PS4 leaderboards yesterday and I encounter PLENTY of aggressive players and have no issue putting them away and embarrassing them.

The head health bug makes aggressive players overly dangerous right now when they have full stamina in round one, but that's an anomaly and not intended.

An increased block tax would seriously endanger the game's overall meta by shifting it toward turtling and make anyone with already poor cardio absolutely obsolete.

You'd have people picking Diaz Bros & Cormier more to compensate for how hard it would be to initiate aggression with anyone else.

[bmlimo]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

I get your point. I wouldn't mind adjusting the stamina ratings on certain fighters downward (Cormier comes to mind) or the higher altitude perks (Diaz bros). But outside of a few fighters, it's not an issue. I play as Aldo at FW and I gas aggressive McGregor players very easily. All of these result in stamina drain: Whiffed strikes Slipped strikes Lunged strikes Body shots Rocks Knockdowns I get that you think activity is still too high, and to some extent I agree. But I don't think the answer is a universal block tax. Initiating offense as anyone who already has bad cardio would be a horrific endeavor. If anyone skilled leverages all the tools above, it's already easy to gas most fighters. Diaz bros, Bisping, Cormier are the exceptions. Instead of arguing for a universal block tax, I would argue to sanitize the stamina ratings of the outlier fighters that spammers like to pick. That said, wild aggression right now is already EXTREMELY dangerous. Planted strikes incur no additional vuln. Forward moving strikes incur vuln. Planted strikes come out as fast possible. Forward moving strikes have more startup and recovery frames. Planted strikes come out positive in same-strike trades. Forward moving strikes come out negative in same-strike trades. And in this patch we have a lightning fast slip straight AND the R1+R2 retreat AND a back lunge that cannot be interrupted by strikes. Are there seriously not enough tools to counter aggression? I was rank 14 on the PS4 leaderboards yesterday and I encounter PLENTY of aggressive players and have no issue putting them away and embarrassing them. The head health bug makes aggressive players overly dangerous right now when they have full stamina in round one, but that's an anomaly and not intended. An increased block tax would seriously endanger the game's overall meta by shifting it toward turtling and make anyone with already poor cardio absolutely obsolete. You'd have people picking Diaz Bros & Cormier more to compensate for how hard it would be to initiate aggression with anyone else.

When you look that way u have a strong point... I’m not fully convinced to be honest... I just think there are more reward for be ultra agressive than conservative... but in my opinion if combos didn’t have an extra boost for players input speed(a.k.a mashing buttons) it would be better to make them pay for over agressive strategies

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

I get your point. I wouldn't mind adjusting the stamina ratings on certain fighters downward (Cormier comes to mind) or the higher altitude perks (Diaz bros). But outside of a few fighters, it's not an issue. I play as Aldo at FW and I gas aggressive McGregor players very easily. All of these result in stamina drain: Whiffed strikes Slipped strikes Lunged strikes Body shots Rocks Knockdowns I get that you think activity is still too high, and to some extent I agree. But I don't think the answer is a universal block tax. Initiating offense as anyone who already has bad cardio would be a horrific endeavor. If anyone skilled leverages all the tools above, it's already easy to gas most fighters. Diaz bros, Bisping, Cormier are the exceptions. Instead of arguing for a universal block tax, I would argue to sanitize the stamina ratings of the outlier fighters that spammers like to pick. That said, wild aggression right now is already EXTREMELY dangerous. Planted strikes incur no additional vuln. Forward moving strikes incur vuln. Planted strikes come out as fast possible. Forward moving strikes have more startup and recovery frames. Planted strikes come out positive in same-strike trades. Forward moving strikes come out negative in same-strike trades. And in this patch we have a lightning fast slip straight AND the R1+R2 retreat AND a back lunge that cannot be interrupted by strikes. Are there seriously not enough tools to counter aggression? I was rank 14 on the PS4 leaderboards yesterday and I encounter PLENTY of aggressive players and have no issue putting them away and embarrassing them. The head health bug makes aggressive players overly dangerous right now when they have full stamina in round one, but that's an anomaly and not intended. An increased block tax would seriously endanger the game's overall meta by shifting it toward turtling and make anyone with already poor cardio absolutely obsolete. You'd have people picking Diaz Bros & Cormier more to compensate for how hard it would be to initiate aggression with anyone else.

My counter to that is wouldnt that be more realistic?

There arent a lot of hyper aggressive fighters and people should pick fighters that fit their style.

It wouldnt mean being hyper aggressive should be the default style but it’d be more successful with the fighters that have the stats/perks to back it up.

MMA is a complex sport that usually involves moments of hyper aggression aka exchanges. But the game is currently about non stop aggression.

[ZombieRommel]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

My counter to that is wouldnt that be more realistic? There arent a lot of hyper aggressive fighters and people should pick fighters that fit their style. It wouldnt mean being hyper aggressive should be the default style but it’d be more successful with the fighters that have the stats/perks to back it up. MMA is a complex sport that usually involves moments of hyper aggression aka exchanges. But the game is currently about non stop aggression.

The damage bug is tilting the game more toward aggression than it should.

But once that's fixed, aggression should be very punishable. I would argue it already is.

Aren't you mainly an offline player?

I'm not sure if maybe the AI has figured out some crazy way to maintain pressure and aggression, but I know that I can gas out almost anyone who comes at me full stop and tries to take me out.

There are so many ways to gas people. I just wonder if everyone in this thread is using those ways efficiently.

Again I maintain an open invitation. Anyone who believes that aggression is over-powered stamina-wise, we can setup a match or two on the PS4 and I will demonstrate otherwise.

Someone who is defensive and knows what they're doing can make aggressive players look absolutely silly post-patch. Tune into MartialMind's videos for a quick peek.

I just want to make sure everyone is making full use of the available tools before asking to tilt the game further in a given direction. I'm using all the tools and I'm not having issues.

I also don't really favor one playstyle over another. In FNC I used to get hatemail for using Ali and jabbing my way to safe decisions. Later on I learned how to use Tyson and stack up first round KO wins.

I truly do want all strategies to have a place in the game as this makes for the most diverse and interesting playspace. And I feel that right now, with good timing and use of the current tools, it's not very hard to make someone carelessly aggressive gas out badly.

[WarMMA]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

Someone who is defensive and knows what they're doing can make aggressive players look absolutely silly post-patch. Tune into MartialMind's videos for a quick peek. I just want to make sure everyone is making full use of the available tools before asking to tilt the game further in a given direction. I'm using all the tools and I'm not having issues. I also don't really favor one playstyle over another. In FNC I used to get hatemail for using Ali and jabbing my way to safe decisions. Later on I learned how to use Tyson and stack up first round KO wins. I truly do want all strategies to have a place in the game as this makes for the most diverse and interesting playspace. And I feel that right now, with good timing and use of the current tools, it's not very hard to make someone carelessly aggressive gas out badly.

Yh I agree. The damage bug needs to be fixed, but once your using all your tools you can definitely make aggresive players pay. The head movement is even better and that new quick retreat is gold for players that wanna keep at distance against aggresors. It just needs a little tweak to tune down that long term stamina tax a bit. Was playing with my roomate a while ago and he plays similar to most online. Just keeps coming forward swinging 1-2, overhands and hooks. I had Manuwa and he had DC. Just with the better head movement and the quick retreat alone, he could barely hit me. I kept the jab in his face a ton till he got fraustrated and started whiffing and going for sloppy td's. Eventually gassed himself and I picked him apart and finished him in the 3rd. It's still a issue how much guys can throw per round though. I don't know if more tax is the answer, but something needs to be done. I like Martials idea about forward moving combos.

[Reinfarcements]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

The damage bug is tilting the game more toward aggression than it should. But once that's fixed, aggression should be very punishable. I would argue it already is. Aren't you mainly an offline player? I'm not sure if maybe the AI has figured out some crazy way to maintain pressure and aggression, but I know that I can gas out almost anyone who comes at me full stop and tries to take me out. There are so many ways to gas people. I just wonder if everyone in this thread is using those ways efficiently. Again I maintain an open invitation. Anyone who believes that aggression is over-powered stamina-wise, we can setup a match or two on the PS4 and I will demonstrate otherwise. Someone who is defensive and knows what they're doing can make aggressive players look absolutely silly post-patch. Tune into MartialMind's videos for a quick peek. I just want to make sure everyone is making full use of the available tools before asking to tilt the game further in a given direction. I'm using all the tools and I'm not having issues. I also don't really favor one playstyle over another. In FNC I used to get hatemail for using Ali and jabbing my way to safe decisions. Later on I learned how to use Tyson and stack up first round KO wins. I truly do want all strategies to have a place in the game as this makes for the most diverse and interesting playspace. And I feel that right now, with good timing and use of the current tools, it's not very hard to make someone carelessly aggressive gas out badly.

You have fair points Rommel, and I can't argue with you that adding in a stronger blocked strike tax by itself would unbalance the game to some extent. You are probably right on that front.

I think many of us are just going off how strange it seems sometimes to see such high volume of strikes from some opponents. So maybe a combination of changes plus higher tax on blocked strikes could keep the game balanced. Admittedly, I don't know what that magic combination of changes would be personally.

Also the only other thing that I can say in regards to this situation, in which you could easily counter with a GIT GUD, is that punishing aggression is so much more skill based and harder to do than being aggressive. At least at low-mid tier players. I think that is why we see so many aggressive players, because it is by far the easier route to take.

All the options you mention to punish aggression are definitely viable, but many of them have vulnerability AND stamina penalties tied to them. So there is very little room for error and at the same time playing extremely cautious (back lunging / side lunging when you thought they were gonna strike but don't for example) will eat up your stamina in the long run. If you manage to go the distance with the aggressive guy, they are more likely to win as well, since evasive maneuvers by themselves don't get you any points, while straight volume of strikes will since many are going to end up landing.

BUT like I said, ^ is easily countered with a GIT GUD bruh.

[NextupNico]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

Are you guys using the back lunge vs power strikes? Block the first 2-3 jab-straights and back lunge the power shot. It gasses people like nobody's business. I use it all the time and tonight someone else used it on me. Adding a bigger tax on strikes vs the block is dangerous because lunges and slips that successfully evade strikes cause a huge drain. So if getting in proper range and throwing and hitting the opponent causes MORE drain, then what is an aggressor supposed to do? Sit and stare? Or do you want to encourage more body spam? Because that is what will happen. People won't even try to attack the area being guarded. They'll just go for the open area, which usually be the body. And just as a side note -- in real life, fighters can sneak punches through the guard. They can loop a punch around a front guard to hit their opponent in the temple or between the gloves to hit the chin. So they don't need to punch much if they're accurate. In the game, we can't aim punches that precisely, so we have the block break mechanic, which requires 2-3 punches to open. If you discourage people from trying to break the block, you're going to have a very turtly game where both players are afraid to launch any offense, they're both plinking at each other's body, and most of the match is a staring contest where each is waiting for the other to swing and waste stamina so they can launch a slip counter.

I stopped reading when you tried to make attacking the unguarded area sound like it is a bad thing that is literally the point of mixing up in any fighting scenarios. And like how you talked about punching around the block as is punching the body when someone’s block is high isn’t the same thing as reaching beyond a tight chin/nose block (I’m aware that the second option isn’t available in game). If you don’t really fight or play well put together fighting games your option on mechanics are going to easily show their bias’s towards your own ignorance of actually fighting.

[ZombieRommel]

Quote: Originally Posted by NextupNico

I stopped reading when you tried to make attacking the unguarded area sound like it is a bad thing that is literally the point of mixing up in any fighting scenarios. And like how you talked about punching around the block as is punching the body when someone’s block is high isn’t the same thing as reaching beyond a tight chin/nose block (I’m aware that the second option isn’t available in game). If you don’t really fight or play well put together fighting games your option on mechanics are going to easily show their bias’s towards your own ignorance of actually fighting.

Dude! UFC2 didn't have this block penetration mechanic, and it was body spam central. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants a game where you're FORCED to attack the body disproportionately more than happens in real MMA.

I've been playing fighting games since Street Fighter 2: The World Warrior in arcades.

I don't want an MMA game where I'm forced to either body spam or gas myself hitting the block.