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backbreaker · 05-10-2004, 09:30 AM

I hope this area or the game see a major overhaul. It wasn't very good to say the least, in last years model. I would love to see the CPU AI sub when the games out of hand, and a global auto sub i.e. EA's NCAA Football game.

This years fatigue model appeared to me only had an effect when you use the player in consecutive plays, I would like too see it decrease as the game progress, and some rejuvenation by halftime. The distinction from a workhorse back, like Ricky Williams and other select few, who can actually get better with more carries. I hope this is an area of the gameplay that gets addressed by ESPN Videogames.

LBzrule · 05-10-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

backbreaker said:
I hope this area or the game see a major overhaul. It wasn't very good to say the least, in last years model. I would love to see the CPU AI sub when the games out of hand, and a global auto sub i.e. EA's NCAA Football game.

This years fatigue model appeared to me only had an effect when you use the player in consecutive plays, I would like too see it decrease as the game progress, and some rejuvenation by halftime. The distinction from a workhorse back, like Ricky Williams and other select few, who can actually get better with more carries. I hope this is an area of the gameplay that gets addressed by ESPN Videogames.

Yes the Fatigue definately needs overhaul. The most annoying thing is to see someone put Eddie George, Ricky Williams, Marshall Faulk in as their kick returner and punt returner, then when you look up he's in the huddle on offense for EVERY snap, never gets tired, comes out and continues to break tackles at will. Needless to say, that %&*t has got to go. RB's should get taxed alot this year 1 for using up that charge meter and second for trying to consistently break tackles. One thing I am a bit weary of with max tackling is guys that have a turbo controller. This will help them break tackles alot quicker. We'll see how that works. There also needs to be some type of tags for substituting, so that you cannot sub people like Eddie George in as a kick returner and punt returner

Or Keith Bulluck maybe Steve McNair in as the kicker and the ball goes nowhere and they get the ball on every kickoff

Yes the things that people do

jbprice20 · 05-10-2004, 10:26 AM

i wouldn't mind seeing fatigue worked on.

using the running back position as an example, what should happen is a lost of effectiveness that cannot be recovered if you overwork a back. for example, if you give brian westbrook of the eagles 15 carries by the middle of the second quarter and have him return punts and kicks, he should lose let's say 20% of his 'energy bar' and never get that back (maybe a bump up at halftime). of course workhorse backs like ricky williams will be able to take more punishment than a westbrook.

some ideas on handling fatigue for other positions:

qb: his fatigue should be tied to the amount of times he gets hit (not just sacks) and how many times he gets tackled after runs (make sliding more important). this would force you to mix in three-step drops and maybe call running plays more often.

oline: oline is tough because these guys very rarely sub. maybe the amount of inside runs, guard-pull runs, and long dropback passes should affect the oline. hmmmm.

wr: long routes, blocking on outside runs, and, of course, number of pass plays. getting hit going into the middle probably takes its toll on these guys i would think as well.

dline: dline fatigue is number of snaps, plain and simple. these guys get into a wrestling match and/or need to sprint off the snap every single play. perhaps the d-tackles get fatigued quicker if a lot of inside runs are called while the d-ends get fatigued quicker if a lot of pass plays are called.

lbs: another position where fatigue subs (as opposed to situational subs) do not occur all that often. maybe amount of one-on-one coverage on pass plays and number of outside runs by the opposing team would affect the lbs the most. also, i think it would be really cool if lbs' fatigue take a drop if the lbs need to take on the blocks of the oline, especially if the lbs are on the smaller side. this would make having a dline that ties up the oline (and also the dline playcall) more important.

secondary: amount of pass plays called, amount of one-on-one coverage, and amount of tackles (especially when tackling large backs/receivers).

of course, the new practice mode for franchise play should affect fatigue as well. if you work your guys hard all week, maybe a lot of your players come in with 5% gone to begin with. they might be more prepared (don't get caught out of position, on d react to the ball well since they've been praticing hard all week) but they're a bit slower, weaker, etc.

the reverse should be true too. you rest your guys all week and maybe it's harder for them to get fatigued during the game (don't think their fatigue should ever be higher than 100%). maybe they get caught out of position or mess up a route or a block but they are well rested and will be as effective as possible for as long as possible.

MercilessMagal · 05-10-2004, 10:49 AM

i think a good fatigue example that they could use on football is something similar to what we have in boxing games... based on the player stats they could get tired easier or it could take more time... so we would have the normal fatigue that we see play by play like it is on this game with the endurance and recovery rates, and a the total bar, like it was said... that should decrease depending on what is done and other player atributes .. its not a major flaw on this game though, its not annoying and u learn to play with it the way it is, but if this could be implemented would be really nice.

**DONOTDELETE** · 05-10-2004, 11:31 AM

Quote:

jbprice20 said:
i wouldn't mind seeing fatigue worked on.

using the running back position as an example, what should happen is a lost of effectiveness that cannot be recovered if you overwork a back. for example, if you give brian westbrook of the eagles 15 carries by the middle of the second quarter and have him return punts and kicks, he should lose let's say 20% of his 'energy bar' and never get that back (maybe a bump up at halftime). of course workhorse backs like ricky williams will be able to take more punishment than a westbrook.

some ideas on handling fatigue for other positions:

qb: his fatigue should be tied to the amount of times he gets hit (not just sacks) and how many times he gets tackled after runs (make sliding more important). this would force you to mix in three-step drops and maybe call running plays more often.

oline: oline is tough because these guys very rarely sub. maybe the amount of inside runs, guard-pull runs, and long dropback passes should affect the oline. hmmmm.

wr: long routes, blocking on outside runs, and, of course, number of pass plays. getting hit going into the middle probably takes its toll on these guys i would think as well.

dline: dline fatigue is number of snaps, plain and simple. these guys get into a wrestling match and/or need to sprint off the snap every single play. perhaps the d-tackles get fatigued quicker if a lot of inside runs are called while the d-ends get fatigued quicker if a lot of pass plays are called.

lbs: another position where fatigue subs (as opposed to situational subs) do not occur all that often. maybe amount of one-on-one coverage on pass plays and number of outside runs by the opposing team would affect the lbs the most. also, i think it would be really cool if lbs' fatigue take a drop if the lbs need to take on the blocks of the oline, especially if the lbs are on the smaller side. this would make having a dline that ties up the oline (and also the dline playcall) more important.

secondary: amount of pass plays called, amount of one-on-one coverage, and amount of tackles (especially when tackling large backs/receivers).

of course, the new practice mode for franchise play should affect fatigue as well. if you work your guys hard all week, maybe a lot of your players come in with 5% gone to begin with. they might be more prepared (don't get caught out of position, on d react to the ball well since they've been praticing hard all week) but they're a bit slower, weaker, etc.

the reverse should be true too. you rest your guys all week and maybe it's harder for them to get fatigued during the game (don't think their fatigue should ever be higher than 100%). maybe they get caught out of position or mess up a route or a block but they are well rested and will be as effective as possible for as long as possible.

As a rough outline this is a great idea! I'm sure others can chime in on what may need to be tweaked position-by-position, but the idea is GOLD.

I'd like to add that the fatigue model that you suggest would also encompass the entire SEASON. So that if you choose to run a running back 500 times a season, he'll be EXHAUSTED come playoff time. Especially if he's not a "workhorse" to begin with.

Such workhorses would be LESS suseptible to wearing out and breaking down if that is the way the are in real-life.

Bondra12 · 05-10-2004, 01:00 PM

Quote:

gooberstabone said:
As a rough outline this is a great idea! I'm sure others can chime in on what may need to be tweaked position-by-position, but the idea is GOLD.

I'd like to add that the fatigue model that you suggest would also encompass the entire SEASON. So that if you choose to run a running back 500 times a season, he'll be EXHAUSTED come playoff time. Especially if he's not a "workhorse" to begin with.

Such workhorses would be LESS suseptible to wearing out and breaking down if that is the way the are in real-life.

I think that this would be awesome. Maybe tie injury ratings into this fatigue system as well. (as long as it isn't too drastic)

05-10-2004, 09:30 AM	#1
backbreaker Banned OVR: 26 Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,991	Fatigue and Substituting I hope this area or the game see a major overhaul. It wasn't very good to say the least, in last years model. I would love to see the CPU AI sub when the games out of hand, and a global auto sub i.e. EA's NCAA Football game. This years fatigue model appeared to me only had an effect when you use the player in consecutive plays, I would like too see it decrease as the game progress, and some rejuvenation by halftime. The distinction from a workhorse back, like Ricky Williams and other select few, who can actually get better with more carries. I hope this is an area of the gameplay that gets addressed by ESPN Videogames.

05-10-2004, 10:02 AM	#2
LBzrule Hall Of Fame OVR: 40 Join Date: Jul 2002 Blog Entries: 8	Re: Fatigue and Substituting Quote: *backbreaker said:* I hope this area or the game see a major overhaul. It wasn't very good to say the least, in last years model. I would love to see the CPU AI sub when the games out of hand, and a global auto sub i.e. EA's NCAA Football game. This years fatigue model appeared to me only had an effect when you use the player in consecutive plays, I would like too see it decrease as the game progress, and some rejuvenation by halftime. The distinction from a workhorse back, like Ricky Williams and other select few, who can actually get better with more carries. I hope this is an area of the gameplay that gets addressed by ESPN Videogames. Yes the Fatigue definately needs overhaul. The most annoying thing is to see someone put Eddie George, Ricky Williams, Marshall Faulk in as their kick returner and punt returner, then when you look up he's in the huddle on offense for EVERY snap, never gets tired, comes out and continues to break tackles at will. Needless to say, that %&*t has got to go. RB's should get taxed alot this year 1 for using up that charge meter and second for trying to consistently break tackles. One thing I am a bit weary of with max tackling is guys that have a turbo controller. This will help them break tackles alot quicker. We'll see how that works. There also needs to be some type of tags for substituting, so that you cannot sub people like Eddie George in as a kick returner and punt returner Or Keith Bulluck maybe Steve McNair in as the kicker and the ball goes nowhere and they get the ball on every kickoff Yes the things that people do

05-10-2004, 10:26 AM	#3
jbprice20 Rookie OVR: 2 Join Date: Mar 2003	Re: Fatigue and Substituting i wouldn't mind seeing fatigue worked on. using the running back position as an example, what should happen is a lost of effectiveness that cannot be recovered if you overwork a back. for example, if you give brian westbrook of the eagles 15 carries by the middle of the second quarter and have him return punts and kicks, he should lose let's say 20% of his 'energy bar' and never get that back (maybe a bump up at halftime). of course workhorse backs like ricky williams will be able to take more punishment than a westbrook. some ideas on handling fatigue for other positions: qb: his fatigue should be tied to the amount of times he gets hit (not just sacks) and how many times he gets tackled after runs (make sliding more important). this would force you to mix in three-step drops and maybe call running plays more often. oline: oline is tough because these guys very rarely sub. maybe the amount of inside runs, guard-pull runs, and long dropback passes should affect the oline. hmmmm. wr: long routes, blocking on outside runs, and, of course, number of pass plays. getting hit going into the middle probably takes its toll on these guys i would think as well. dline: dline fatigue is number of snaps, plain and simple. these guys get into a wrestling match and/or need to sprint off the snap every single play. perhaps the d-tackles get fatigued quicker if a lot of inside runs are called while the d-ends get fatigued quicker if a lot of pass plays are called. lbs: another position where fatigue subs (as opposed to situational subs) do not occur all that often. maybe amount of one-on-one coverage on pass plays and number of outside runs by the opposing team would affect the lbs the most. also, i think it would be really cool if lbs' fatigue take a drop if the lbs need to take on the blocks of the oline, especially if the lbs are on the smaller side. this would make having a dline that ties up the oline (and also the dline playcall) more important. secondary: amount of pass plays called, amount of one-on-one coverage, and amount of tackles (especially when tackling large backs/receivers). of course, the new practice mode for franchise play should affect fatigue as well. if you work your guys hard all week, maybe a lot of your players come in with 5% gone to begin with. they might be more prepared (don't get caught out of position, on d react to the ball well since they've been praticing hard all week) but they're a bit slower, weaker, etc. the reverse should be true too. you rest your guys all week and maybe it's harder for them to get fatigued during the game (don't think their fatigue should ever be higher than 100%). maybe they get caught out of position or mess up a route or a block but they are well rested and will be as effective as possible for as long as possible.

05-10-2004, 10:49 AM	#4
MercilessMagal Rookie OVR: 1 Join Date: May 2004	Re: Fatigue and Substituting i think a good fatigue example that they could use on football is something similar to what we have in boxing games... based on the player stats they could get tired easier or it could take more time... so we would have the normal fatigue that we see play by play like it is on this game with the endurance and recovery rates, and a the total bar, like it was said... that should decrease depending on what is done and other player atributes .. its not a major flaw on this game though, its not annoying and u learn to play with it the way it is, but if this could be implemented would be really nice.

05-10-2004, 11:31 AM	#5
DONOTDELETE Hall Of Fame OVR: 1 Join Date: Dec 1969	Re: Fatigue and Substituting Quote: *jbprice20 said:* i wouldn't mind seeing fatigue worked on. using the running back position as an example, what should happen is a lost of effectiveness that cannot be recovered if you overwork a back. for example, if you give brian westbrook of the eagles 15 carries by the middle of the second quarter and have him return punts and kicks, he should lose let's say 20% of his 'energy bar' and never get that back (maybe a bump up at halftime). of course workhorse backs like ricky williams will be able to take more punishment than a westbrook. some ideas on handling fatigue for other positions: qb: his fatigue should be tied to the amount of times he gets hit (not just sacks) and how many times he gets tackled after runs (make sliding more important). this would force you to mix in three-step drops and maybe call running plays more often. oline: oline is tough because these guys very rarely sub. maybe the amount of inside runs, guard-pull runs, and long dropback passes should affect the oline. hmmmm. wr: long routes, blocking on outside runs, and, of course, number of pass plays. getting hit going into the middle probably takes its toll on these guys i would think as well. dline: dline fatigue is number of snaps, plain and simple. these guys get into a wrestling match and/or need to sprint off the snap every single play. perhaps the d-tackles get fatigued quicker if a lot of inside runs are called while the d-ends get fatigued quicker if a lot of pass plays are called. lbs: another position where fatigue subs (as opposed to situational subs) do not occur all that often. maybe amount of one-on-one coverage on pass plays and number of outside runs by the opposing team would affect the lbs the most. also, i think it would be really cool if lbs' fatigue take a drop if the lbs need to take on the blocks of the oline, especially if the lbs are on the smaller side. this would make having a dline that ties up the oline (and also the dline playcall) more important. secondary: amount of pass plays called, amount of one-on-one coverage, and amount of tackles (especially when tackling large backs/receivers). of course, the new practice mode for franchise play should affect fatigue as well. if you work your guys hard all week, maybe a lot of your players come in with 5% gone to begin with. they might be more prepared (don't get caught out of position, on d react to the ball well since they've been praticing hard all week) but they're a bit slower, weaker, etc. the reverse should be true too. you rest your guys all week and maybe it's harder for them to get fatigued during the game (don't think their fatigue should ever be higher than 100%). maybe they get caught out of position or mess up a route or a block but they are well rested and will be as effective as possible for as long as possible. As a rough outline this is a great idea! I'm sure others can chime in on what may need to be tweaked position-by-position, but the idea is GOLD. I'd like to add that the fatigue model that you suggest would also encompass the entire SEASON. So that if you choose to run a running back 500 times a season, he'll be EXHAUSTED come playoff time. Especially if he's not a "workhorse" to begin with. Such workhorses would be LESS suseptible to wearing out and breaking down if that is the way the are in real-life.

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05-10-2004, 01:00 PM	#6
Bondra12 Rookie OVR: 4 Join Date: Sep 2003	Re: Fatigue and Substituting Quote: *gooberstabone said:* As a rough outline this is a great idea! I'm sure others can chime in on what may need to be tweaked position-by-position, but the idea is GOLD. I'd like to add that the fatigue model that you suggest would also encompass the entire SEASON. So that if you choose to run a running back 500 times a season, he'll be EXHAUSTED come playoff time. Especially if he's not a "workhorse" to begin with. Such workhorses would be LESS suseptible to wearing out and breaking down if that is the way the are in real-life. I think that this would be awesome. Maybe tie injury ratings into this fatigue system as well. (as long as it isn't too drastic)

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Fatigue and Substituting