Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

[nomo17k]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

So I'm noticing something significant as I'm going through doing pitch edits. I don't know if it was like this in previous editions of the game.

In real life, pitchers have a pretty wide range of both vertical and horizontal movement on their respective changeups according to Brooks. It looks like SCEA used some amalgamation of their vertical and horizontal movements to come up with a single movement rating for the pitch and weighted the two axes more or less evenly. It's suboptimal, but with one number to describe two different things happening that are more or less independent of each other I can see why they did it. Their ratings aren't very consistent with pitch F/X data but when I can see how they came up with their rating it appears they're at best equally rating Hmov and Vmov (with what looks like an emphasis on Hmov).

I created a guy that throws a change, a circle change, a splitter, vulcan change, and forkball. I threw a few dozen of each pitch at 5, 50, and 95 movement rating. As far as I can tell, the movement rating almost exclusively effects the ball's vertical movement. The "run" on the pitch appears to be relatively static regardless of the movement rating.

Because SCEA's movement rating is determined by movement on both axes but then represented in the Show as movement on just the vertical axis, changes with big horizontal run end up playing as changes with big vertical drop.

A few examples:
Tyler Clippard has a solid 6.3" Hmov and a very pedestrian 9.5" Vmov on his changeup (lower is better for Vmov). Somehow this earns him a 95 movement rating on his change from SCEA and his change in the Show has the floor fall out from underneath it.

Charlie Morton has a similar 6.1" Hmov and an impressive -0.9" Vmov rated as a 50 by SCEA. So his change that drops off the table IRL is very unremarkable in the show.

James Shields has a change with 7.7 Hmov and 4.3 Vmov. Rated as an 82 by SCEA.

Cole Hamels with 9.2 Hmov and 6.2 Vmov. 91 rating. Drops off the floor.

Jered Weaver with 5.6 Hmov and 8.8 Vmov. Gets a 74 rating.

Brandon League with 5.8 Hmov and -0.3 Vmov gets a 79.

So League and Weaver have in game changes that move similarly despite the fact that League's drops 8 inches more in real life. Hamels change in game drops crazily despite a relatively modest drop in real life compared to League.

Ugh. I think I have to rerate every changeup in the game because SCEA doesn't know horizontal from vertical.

Part of this discrepancy might be coming from how SDS rates Pitch Break can be different from physical movement.

Not sure if it is still true given that the pitch break has been revamped this year, but in the past that rating was not just tied to how much they actually move visually, but also acted as a modifier to K/9 ratings.

A pitcher can have an effective whiff inducing (i.e., high K/9 and Pitch Break) breaking pitch without having a lot of break, and vice versa. I think there are always compromises like that that SDS needs to consider.

[therewillbechud]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

For people that really struggle with the change, are you high fastball hitters?


I don't even bother with high fastballs this year. Usually they're out of the zone, or borderline pitches that are easily popped up, and the CPU isn't going to challenge you very often up there during an at bat with a hittable pitch, one time at most. I eliminate the upper part of the plate entirely, I don't even care about it unless it's offspeed.


So about the only way the CPU is going to strike me out consistently is with consecutive hard ones up in the zone, which plenty of people strikeout to that even if they love high fastballs, and perfect sliders right on the black which you just tip your cap and go about your business. This leaves me much more prepared to handle stuff down in the zone, especially hitting stuff the other way with two strikes.


The downside is yes I do hit a good share of lazy flyballs trying to catch up to stuff upstairs when I'm down, but you're going to have to give the pitcher something, it seems the lesser of all available evils.

[A_Quiet_Pro]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

Guess pitch penalizes you if you guess wrong though. That's why I don't use it. I prefer a pure result.

Very true, however, I still think it's realistic enough and heres why. A RL MLB player will crush the pitch if he guesses pitch and location correctly (like you can in the game). AND most times when a player guesses wrong, you'll definitely see it in his swing and his hit quality. For instance, if he's looking CH and gets a FB, he'll be jammed and the hit will suck. Or if he's looking FB and gets a CRV, he may just try and put it in play somewhere, (but most likely will get frozen).

[SpritePuck]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

Part of this discrepancy might be coming from how SDS rates Pitch Break can be different from physical movement.

Not sure if it is still true given that the pitch break has been revamped this year, but in the past that rating was not just tied to how much they actually move visually, but also acted as a modifier to K/9 ratings.

A pitcher can have an effective whiff inducing (i.e., high K/9 and Pitch Break) breaking pitch without having a lot of break, and vice versa. I think there are always compromises like that that SDS needs to consider.

I agree with this completely. The rating numbers are not the only thing affecting pitches this year. For one try taking say Kershaws ratings and pitches and exactly copying them to say Jon Lester. Even if you take every rating number, including the pitch ones and k/9 stuff. Then take him into the game and you will see the pitches are not the same. It is maybe pitching motion but not sure. And okey they throw with different arms. Here is the catch though I created a young Jon Lester with all his current attributes, height weight and everything just like now only 20. He did not get the same results when used or simmed and the pitches just were not the same to hit or throw.

I really honestly believe pitching algorithms are way more than just the ratings. My personal opinion is editing pitchers really messes up the results of how they pitch in game. This year it seems roster changes/edits and even slider adjustments can quickly make the game react in ways not expected or like it used to. I do use custom sliders and in the past used pitch edits. My opinion in 15 is try it out of the box then slowly adjust and recall what works for one gamer may not work for another. We all play differently so the same sliders will not for certain work for all.

If thinking about custom rosters seriously realise athlete in game performance is not completely visible rating based. (in my opinion) Two pitchers with a pitch rated exactly the same will not have the same break and velocity on the pitch when you face him in game. Why it is different, I have theories but no certain answer.

[QuestGAV]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

Part of this discrepancy might be coming from how SDS rates Pitch Break can be different from physical movement.

Not sure if it is still true given that the pitch break has been revamped this year, but in the past that rating was not just tied to how much they actually move visually, but also acted as a modifier to K/9 ratings.

A pitcher can have an effective whiff inducing (i.e., high K/9 and Pitch Break) breaking pitch without having a lot of break, and vice versa. I think there are always compromises like that that SDS needs to consider.

I think this is a great argument if you like the way the game plays out of the box and I think there are definitely black-box rationales for why they rated things the way they did. You risk upsetting some delicate balances any time you're modding a game. Madden 15 is such a mess of incestuous interlocking sliders that getting good gameplay feels like it requires only adjusting your Intentional Grounding slider every third Tuesday. If you adjust it on Wednesday your running game is inexplicably superhuman. Wrong Tuesday? 95% completion percentage becomes normal.

Luckily, TS seems considerably more resilient - by all accounts it has historically played at least as well with significant roster changes & pitch edits. And by isolating a couple small variables you reduce that risk even further.

[SpritePuck]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

My tips after reviewing this thread and trying different things in game.

1) CHANGE THE GAME CHANGE THE RESULTS:
If stats are unrealistic and using edited rosters, try the ones that the developers created and see if things improve, same goes for sliders. This said, sliders are your friend and can be used to make pitches hittable. The balance is the hard part.

2) YOU CAN NOT HIT WHAT YOU CAN NOT SEE! VIEW MATTERS:
If you truly can not see the break and speed difference try different batting views. I tried different views in practice last night for about two hours and some of them I literally striked out 3 of 4 at bats. Not because of timing but because I could not tell what pitches were until the catcher had the ball. For me Classic Catcher 2 is best though I use a custom one started from it slightly lowered and very slightly zoomed in. What works for one gamer is not the solution to all.

3) MORE REALISTIC GAME MEANS MORE DIFFICULT GAME, NOT A WEAKNESS OR SHAME TO TRY LOWER DIFFICULTY:
The Game is not the same as 14 so you may need to play a different difficulty level to get the same results you are used to. I play on All-Star still but do not hit as well as in 14. In 14 my team batting averages drifted into low .300 range. Now they stay in the .250 to .280 range which is more realistic. Stat lines are way better this year! But if last year you hit .250 you may this year using those settings hit .200. There is no shame in playing lower difficulty, make the game fun for you and get the stats you seek. There is a video game stigma about playing on lower difficulties, like it makes one a lesser gamer. Set the game where it plays as you want and forget the words, they made it adjustable because people play differently and just cause your buddy plays on Legend does not mean you should, heck he may spends 12 hours a day playing.

4) GRIP IT AND RIP IT! SIT ON A PITCH! DO NOT HIT WHAT THE PITCHER WANTS YOU TO! ONLY WHAT YOU WANT:
First year I have ever approached at bats like I do when playing real life softball. I go into the box and depending on the pitcher decide what I want and am going to hit. Then the work starts... "Wait a curve in the lower zone, I can hit it! Nope girl watch it for strike one." Then comes a fastball, the pitch I want but away, so lay off for a ball. Next a slider out of the zone, never sit slider so take that. Now 2-1 there it is a mid zone fastball and slam! Now, if it gets to a two strike count excluding 3-2 wait on pitches and foul them off. 3-2 is totally different of course. I do not use guess pitch but do sit on pitches. Sometimes I sit change up. Again if they all look the same see number two.

5) ASK A RACE HORSE, BEING IN FRONT BEATS FOLLOWING:
Sure, your nose may not be in your competitions bum like a race horse. But still ahead in the count is way less poopy than behind. There is most likely a contact penalty in the game for falling behind in the count. Maybe a reward for the 3-0 and 3-1. The reason why is MLB guys (excluding a few exceptions) hit really bad when behind in the count. The numbers are drastically different! Guys who hit .320 are not generally better hitters behind in the count but generally masters of not falling behind in the count. Doing this on Quick Counts is obviously way more difficult. Also you do not get as many offspeed breaking balls when ahead in the count. Just like a race horse if you want to see the nasty stuff fall behind!

6) DO YOU HAVE AN ELEPHANTS MEMORY, MUSCLE MEMORY IS KEY TO TIMIMING IN HITTING:
In real life I spend two hours in the batting cage a day. This is just for timing and mostly so my swing becomes reflex. Partially because thinking and hitting are not conclusive. Once in a game and in the box focus on getting your pitch and driving the bat head through the ball, not keeping your shoulder up or any of the other stuff that must just be muscle memory if one wish be a good hitter. All that batter stance waggles and what not is just so it is the same every time, well and sometimes a little superstition or to mess with a pitcher. What does all this have to do with The Show? Well, it seems we wanted a more realistic game and we got it! Hitting is really tough, at the MLB level near impossible for common people. The more realistic the game gets the more one has to be realistic in approach to succeeding. So, use batting practice mode, get used to timimng and seeing pitches and it will get easier. If this does not work... think about numbers one, two and three on this list. Use in game sliders to make pitches hittable, change cameras to see them and you are not a lesser man for playing a lower difficulty if it makes the game better for you.

As my coach always says... "If you are not having fun, you will not work hard enough to get better and you will not succeed. Take your role serious and do your job on the field but remember the little girl who started playing softball so long ago and why she played!"

For me it was because I wanted to be a part of what my great grandfather loved and was so passionate about. To wear the number his son, my granddad wore. To have a few extra moments of my fathers time. To be like the Red Sox we went to Fenway to see, have a bright white uniform and stand on wonderful smelling grass and run on that dampened brick dust, leaving my footprints behind. I was super disapointed when for years we always had girly uniforms. Finally, now in High School I have a pro guy style cut uniform in brilliant white for home games. It only took eleven years to get it and was worth every sleeveles one or those dreadful ones with shorts!

All that is why I started playing and somewhat why I keep playing. But mostly it is fun! Also, the game is all that makes sense in this world. Friends talk crap about you behind your back to get the boy they like. Parents devorce and one goes away, grandparents pass and you grow up and innosense is slowley taken away. But baseball/softball stays the same. A three and one fastball is still hit hard to the gap for a double. The perfect pitch snapping into my mitt, still followed by the deep bellowed steeee-riiike! and snap of the arm from behind me. My gender being my downfall, I will never put on Red Sox whites and squat behind the plate on Fenway's brick dust. Never stand in the box placing my feet where Carl Yastrzemski once placed his amd slap a ball off the green monster like Boggs, Garciaparra or Vaughn have done. The Show, however gets one closer to the game and holds the same constants that is only in this world true to baseball. In this way it is brilliant but only if fun... Hope everyone can find the way to have fun playing it and maybe has a memory of a grandparent, great grandparent, father or mother telling them about baseball legends and moments from long ago. Or can recall a day at the ballpark, or game on television that brings them a smile. Most of all I hope that it is fun, which is why I hope something I placed here can make hitting the change up less frustrating.

[iLLWiLL]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

Just logging in to express my hatred for change-ups in this year's game

[55]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

Pitch edits are coming, boys and girls.

[TonyMoraco]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

Best way to hit the changeup is not missing the fastball.

[TheRealC7R]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

I'll definitely agree that the change-up in this year's game is really nasty, especially if the pitcher has a high level of confidence in it. I hit with zone and I set the PCI right where the pitch looks like it's about to be, smash x or square then whoops, it lands below the zone and there goes the rally. I'd be OK with change-ups, but it's just that too many pitchers have deadly change-ups.

[DJ]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

Pitch edits are coming, boys and girls.

Thanks for doing this! I haven't been able to get into a franchise yet because of the pitch speeds. Looking forward to getting started once the roster is out.

[jinkjn]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

How does one hit this pitch? It seems like every game I play, the pitcher falls in love with the changeup, and it is impossible for me to pick up the difference between the changeup and fastball, leading a large number of strikeouts.

[countryboy]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

How does one hit this pitch? It seems like every game I play, the pitcher falls in love with the changeup, and it is impossible for me to pick up the difference between the changeup and fastball, leading a large number of strikeouts.

I personally sit on the pitch. If its a fastball I do my best to fight it off and live to see another pitch.

But if I think a changeup is coming, I'll sit on it and have had good success at hitting it hard for extra bases.

[jimkjb]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

How does one hit this pitch? It seems like every game I play, the pitcher falls in love with the changeup, and it is impossible for me to pick up the difference between the changeup and fastball, leading a large number of strikeouts.

[PhilliesFan13]

Re: Okay, we have to talk about it. Changeups.

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