With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

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  • Padgoi
    Banned
    • Oct 2008
    • 1873

    #241
    Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

    Originally posted by kehlis
    But unless I'm missing something that doesn't show where the pitch was released on the meter with relation to the target.
    I also don't think it's realistic in the sense that just because a pitcher has a certain arm angle doesn't mean he's going to miss to that side on a regular basis. Again, it has to do with mechanics. something this game fails to capture in terms of the current pitching mechanisms available.

    Comment

    • kehlis
      Moderator
      • Jul 2008
      • 27738

      #242
      Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

      Originally posted by P.A.D.
      I also don't think it's realistic in the sense that just because a pitcher has a certain arm angle doesn't mean he's going to miss to that side on a regular basis. Again, it has to do with mechanics. something this game fails to capture in terms of the current pitching mechanisms available.

      Well I'm not sure about that, I threw three quarters to a strong degree and would miss to the right of my target on probably 99% of my misses simply because of the tail alone (righty).

      Comment

      • Padgoi
        Banned
        • Oct 2008
        • 1873

        #243
        Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

        Originally posted by kehlis
        Well I'm not sure about that, I threw three quarters to a strong degree and would miss to the right of my target on probably 99% of my misses simply because of the tail alone (righty).
        Yes . . . because of your mechanics.

        Comment

        • kehlis
          Moderator
          • Jul 2008
          • 27738

          #244
          Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

          Originally posted by P.A.D.
          Yes . . . because of your mechanics.

          Isn't that the same as arm angle or are we talking different things?

          Comment

          • Padgoi
            Banned
            • Oct 2008
            • 1873

            #245
            Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

            Originally posted by kehlis
            Isn't that the same as arm angle or are we talking different things?
            Hmm, possibly. I guess they could add another little thing where you are more apt to miss to a certain location based on arm angle, or better yet, make the meter so that someone with a specific arm angle has a larger area to miss to that side than the opposite side.

            Comment

            • NDAlum
              ND
              • Jun 2010
              • 11453

              #246
              Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

              It's not mechanics it's the release point (mechanics can impact where the release point is)

              I threw exclusively 2-seam FB's in college. I knew to locate my FB on the outside edge it had to start the pitch off the plate.

              I think something tied into release point would be best, and that's what the meter does try to do. But as PAD said, if you have it where you're early=armsides and late=away from the hitter at least you understand why you've missed to one side.

              This way you can aim the meter to try and at least make sure that if you have an 0-2 slider going down and away you don't miss over the plate if you really try to bury that ball down and away.

              HOWEVER...IRL I know I've had times where that slider has just got away from me and it hung over the heart of the plate. It happens. Caliber of pitcher determines how often.

              It's common for pitchers to be told "If you're gonna miss make sure you miss to that side" when throwing pitches.
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              Comment

              • nomo17k
                Permanently Banned
                • Feb 2011
                • 5735

                #247
                Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                I think the current discussion on the relation of pitch meter and what kind of pitch should result is a great one and in my view illustrates how challenging it is to balance user input and simulated realism in the game.

                Earlier in the thread, Woodweaver mentioned and implied that the randomness is injected because a gamer can often become too good at using whatever in-game interface he uses, so if the variation you see in game-result is always strictly tied to the gamer's stick skill, then he can control pitches almost at will, which certainly is unrealistic because no in-real life pitchers can command his pitches at will (within variation of course).

                According to the Strategy Guide, the Meter input actually does take into account the pitch release point, and when you release early (late) with the interface, the pitch is more likely to go high (low):

                In Meter pitching, your accuracy selection in the light blue accuracy zone will influence how far the pitcher tends to miss his intended location. You always want to get as close to the yellow bar in the center as possible.

                If you press X too late and miss the light blue zone entirely, the pitcher will release his pitch too late in an overthrow and possibly land the pitch in the dirt. If you press X too early, the pitcher will release his pitch too early in an underthrow and land the pitch too high. Sidearm pitchers overthrow and underthrow on a horizontal axis, depending on their delivery.
                So the release point in fact is taken into account as to how the pitch actually misses the target.

                I think the disconnect with the experience that someone like P.A.D. has been describing comes from the fact that the results are not exactly tied one-to-one between the interfact and the result, because the gamer's input is still interpreted by the game probabilistically, as in "the game's release point was a bit early... so this pitch is *more likely* to go higher than the intended target."

                The key word there is "more likely," which implies the result is not deterministic. This means perhaps 8 out of 10 times, the pitch does go higher than the target, but twice it can still go lower.

                For the sake of argument, let's consider a pitcher with exceptional control/command... like Greg Maddux or Koji Uehara. These guys walk only one batter out of 9 innings (hence BB/9 or roughly 1.0), but when their pitches are charted, their pitches (of course) don't always go to the location they wanted them to go, even with fastballs.

                How should the game simulate those pitchers, when their best real-life effort can still result in a wide variation of pitch location, when a gamer can relatively easily master the hitting the best release timing with the Meter interface?

                If you translate the best release timing with the Meter to hitting the pitch target exactly, then the in-game pitcher will obviously be too accurate compared to real-life counterparts. If you translate the slightly early/late release timing with the Meter to always hitting slightly above the target exactly, then it is the same thing... effectively you are commanding the pitch to exactly where you "intended" (you can intentionally release the pitch slightly early with Meter, if you get skilled enough), so in-game pitchers will have unrealistically good control/command.

                I think this kind of consideration is the reason why The Show does not often directly map user input to in-game outcome.

                Should a game be this way? Shouldn't gamers have more control over what they do with the characters they control in the game. That's entirely up for a discussion.

                But if we want a very good simulation of a sport, then the game needs some good mechanism to simulate how difficult playing that sport really is. The existing game interfaces are rather easy to master, so those simple interfaces are not enough for a game to be realistic.

                Alternatively, the game can introduce very challenging control scheme. But that's not very friendly for gamers who just want enjoyment.

                There definitely is a trade-off there.
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                Comment

                • BrianU
                  MVP
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 1565

                  #248
                  Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                  Pitching in baseball games is the hardest thing to get right imo as far as simulation. Humans look for the least path of resistance and it's easy to master or find the optimal way to use a pitching mode.

                  I believe the best solution is not having the devs tweak or tune a pitching type in certain ways, though it is appreciated, but it's always to give the user more otions. have always wished for pitching type sliders. Let us control how fast or slow the pitching meter/pulse meter speed is. Let us choose how big of a variance there is of the ball location when you miss just outside of the perfect throw marker, as well as when you miss big. Let us set the threshhold between a little miss and a big miss. Full control over the pitching input meters and how they operate.

                  Those options would let us customize things to our individual skill levels. I know you can change the difficulty levels from All-Star to Hall of Fame to Legend, but those change many many variables and not just meter speed/accuracy. I wish for those to be independent and in the hands of the gamer. Then everyone could find a setting that works for them. Even though The Show has the greatest number of options ever present in a baseball sim, it still isn't enough. There is a huge variety of user skill out there that cannot be boiled down into 5 difficulty levels. I would like to be able to tune it finitely for my own ability as well as let others do the same.
                  Last edited by BrianU; 05-24-2015, 11:06 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Go Yankees
                    Banned
                    • Feb 2015
                    • 187

                    #249
                    Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                    I wonder if in the future they might add a arcade/season type mode, let everything happen by way of your skills, Or a hybrid arcade/simulation, I think that would bring more casual players to the game, It would be kinda like MLB 15 THE SHOW SLUGFEST MODE, Let guys hit 500. If good enough, More modes = more fun imo.

                    Comment

                    • bloodwerth
                      Rookie
                      • Mar 2012
                      • 61

                      #250
                      Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                      My biggest issue with this game is when members of the A's wear shoes that aren't white. Wait, what--none of you consider that a gameplay issue? tch, fine; you're wrong, but fine.

                      No, but seriously, the AI reliance on a player's overall, whether it's adjusted or not, irks me almost as much as Desmond Jennings running around O.Co in black cleats. I get that if you're a manager of a team, staff aces like Felix Hernandez or Bumgarner or Kershaw are going to be given a lot of leash. If they fail, they're not going to be benched or demoted because they're aces with proven track records (and ridic contracts). As such, they're ranked in the 90's. But the guys rated in the mid-to-high 70's shouldn't be treated like second class citizens when compared to the players with overalls in the low-to-mid 80's, especially when they're outperforming their teammates.

                      For example, imagine SP #5 has some awful Kyle Kendrick in Coors Field-esque numbers, but he's ranked an 84, so the AI gives him the nod time and time again over SP#6, who is relegated to LR duty because he's ranked 76. Only SP 6's numbers are better across the board: ERA steady in the mid 2's with enough sample size as not to be considered a total fluke, a K/BB ratio worth swooning over, and a WHIP to write home about. At some point, shouldn't the manager get fed up with #5 and sit him in favor of #6? The same goes for hitters. I've seen poor Nori Aoki consistently outhit guys on his team with better overalls, yet he barely cracks the lineup even when the guys ahead of him on the depth chart are fatigued.

                      Does the computer seem reluctant ride the hot hand?
                      Last edited by bloodwerth; 06-03-2015, 05:24 AM.

                      Comment

                      • xvgxj
                        Banned
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 3

                        #251
                        Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                        However, I'm thinking there will be an "Official" thread at some point for this? Not sure if Ramone's "Top 3" thread counts for listing gameplay improvements specifically?

                        Comment

                        • Pt81094
                          Rookie
                          • May 2013
                          • 37

                          #252
                          Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                          I am enjoying this game for most part but 2 things that irk me to no end is 1) bunts...to many bunts especially perfect bunts that go 7 feet then stop so your guys have no change to get to them. 2) umpire inconsistency, i don;;t mind getting a bad call here or there but i hate throwing the same pitch in same location twice and getting different call each time, that is annoying and a bit much

                          Comment

                          • cmutat17
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2015
                            • 127

                            #253
                            Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                            Originally posted by P.A.D.

                            - Pitch Speeds - every pitcher doesn't have a 17-mph difference between their fastball and their changeup. I know they do this intentionally to make the user feel the difference, but it's not realistic at all.


                            This was an issue in MLB 14 as well. I'm not too sure how they (SCEA) missed it.

                            Comment

                            • Jr.
                              Playgirl Coverboy
                              • Feb 2003
                              • 19171

                              #254
                              Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                              Originally posted by Pt81094
                              I am enjoying this game for most part but 2 things that irk me to no end is 1) bunts...to many bunts especially perfect bunts that go 7 feet then stop so your guys have no change to get to them. 2) umpire inconsistency, i don;;t mind getting a bad call here or there but i hate throwing the same pitch in same location twice and getting different call each time, that is annoying and a bit much
                              You can turn off variable umpires in the game settings. With it off, the umpires will call a perfect strike zone (according to the game; I've never played with variable umps off).
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                              Comment

                              • Padgoi
                                Banned
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 1873

                                #255
                                Re: With all they've tweaked with gameplay, there's still so much more they didn't...

                                Originally posted by Jr.
                                You can turn off variable umpires in the game settings. With it off, the umpires will call a perfect strike zone (according to the game; I've never played with variable umps off).
                                I play with variable umps off.
                                It's far from perfect even with it off.

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