Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

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  • Ghost Of The Year
    Turn Left. Repeat.
    • Mar 2014
    • 6377

    #76
    Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

    For one thing, and what a sometimes gets overlooked, is pitching with a bullpen is a TOTALLY different strategy than pitching with a starter. When your relievers have a smaller arsenal of pitch types compered to starters, you must sometimes be willing to walk batters (though not an IBB) in order to set up a more favorable lefty/righty matchup. Plus, once those clutch attributes come more into play in later innings, you just may not be as successful as you were earlier in the game.
    Also, IMO, comparing the first 6 innings of a baseball game to the last 3 innings is tantamount to comparing hockey to soccer.
    Just my one cent.
    T-BONE.

    Talking about things nobody cares.

    Screw Discord. Make OS Great Again.

    Comment

    • Speedy
      #Ace
      • Apr 2008
      • 16143

      #77
      Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

      Originally posted by countryboy
      I [want to] engage in the idea of getting those who are seeing it to compare instances and see if they can find a common factor.
      Just saw this...I like your approach.

      See if there are similarities and afterwards (potentially) focus on them individually if the solutions to the issues seen fix the problem.
      Originally posted by Gibson88
      Anyone who asked for an ETA is not being Master of their Domain.
      It's hard though...especially when I got my neighbor playing their franchise across the street...maybe I will occupy myself with Glamore Magazine.

      Comment

      • CujoMatty
        Member of Rush Nation
        • Oct 2007
        • 5445

        #78
        Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

        Originally posted by countryboy
        I agree. Odd things happen in real life. Teams fall apart and blow up.

        But in this case we are discussing a video game vs real life. And you have people who believe that there is something, beyond their control, happening that is causing them to lose games or give the cpu an unfair advantage.

        Whether you agree or not, whether same scenarios happen in real life or not, in this case does not matter. If you feel as though you have no control over the outcome of a game, then again, it doesn't matter what is happening, but rather the how.

        Like I said earlier, I personally don't believe there is a rubber band ai code or cpu boosting or anything of the sort. But just because I don't believe it doesn't mean that others are required to not believe as well. So, instead of trying to provide evidence of how they are wrong, or make a mockery of their opinions, I have decided to see if they can find a common factor in their experiences that may explain why they are seeing what they are seeing.

        Nobody has to agree with those who believe its there. And they don't have to agree with those who say it isn't. But the constant back and forth, and I'm guilty of this as anyone else, doesn't/isn't going to solve anything. So unless someone is willing to come into this thread with an open mind, or at least see what others have to say and offer advice or suggestions, then please bypass the thread.

        I don't think anyone is actually mocking or belittling anyone in here really. And to be honest this is one of the tamer versions of these types of threads I've seen over the years.

        I feel the same as you about this issue just because I might not see it doesn't mean it's not there. I also fully believe in respecting people's opinions.

        The issue is normally what these threads are or become is people are upset they lost. Plain and simple. Looking for a common issue in this matter isn't going to happen. After years of seeing thsee threads it's apparent that yes the cpu probably did something cheap to contribute to then winning but it's not as consistent as the posters in theses threads make it seem and also there are ways to counteract many of these instances. Ie mound visits, pitching patterns, sliders.

        I do get it and I actually enjoy these threads because to me it's more a thread where people get to come and vent. I used to be one of them so I definetly get it. If I had a nickel for everytime I shouted "this game cheats" in my life I'd be rich.
        I've just learned the ways to combat most of the things that get wonky and the ones I can't combat I actually enjoy because it really does alot of times represent the unpredicrltabilty of baseball

        One last example. Just an hour ago I was extra innings against detroit
        Walked the first runner. Base hit next guy first pitch. 1st and 2nd no outs and I'm thinking here we go. I remain calm mound visit I also make sure I throw my next pitch out of the zone because I can tell from the last batter the cpu is getting aggressive. He chases it and I get a grounder that just barely misses a double play. 1st and third 1 out. I change my pitcher. I end up striking out the next 2 to get out of the jam one of which is cabrera. Next inning I can't score. First batter for detroit is anthony gose who has a 38 rating in power against righties. First pitch is a no doubter over the wall in right. I could've been pissed. Really 38 power? No doubter in extras for a walk off? No reality was I slacked off. It was gose. I lazily tried to slip a fastball by him and it was right down the middle. Hopefully I learned for next time.
        2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
        2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
        2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

        Comment

        • Ghost Of The Year
          Turn Left. Repeat.
          • Mar 2014
          • 6377

          #79
          Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

          Originally posted by cujomatty
          I don't think anyone is actually mocking or belittling anyone in here really. And to be honest this is one of the tamer versions of these types of threads I've seen over the years.

          I feel the same as you about this issue just because I might not see it doesn't mean it's not there. I also fully believe in respecting people's opinions.

          The issue is normally what these threads are or become is people are upset they lost. Plain and simple. Looking for a common issue in this matter isn't going to happen. After years of seeing thsee threads it's apparent that yes the cpu probably did something cheap to contribute to then winning but it's not as consistent as the posters in theses threads make it seem and also there are ways to counteract many of these instances. Ie mound visits, pitching patterns, sliders.

          I do get it and I actually enjoy these threads because to me it's more a thread where people get to come and vent. I used to be one of them so I definetly get it. If I had a nickel for everytime I shouted "this game cheats" in my life I'd be rich.
          I've just learned the ways to combat most of the things that get wonky and the ones I can't combat I actually enjoy because it really does alot of times represent the unpredicrltabilty of baseball

          One last example. Just an hour ago I was extra innings against detroit
          Walked the first runner. Base hit next guy first pitch. 1st and 2nd no outs and I'm thinking here we go. I remain calm mound visit I also make sure I throw my next pitch out of the zone because I can tell from the last batter the cpu is getting aggressive. He chases it and I get a grounder that just barely misses a double play. 1st and third 1 out. I change my pitcher. I end up striking out the next 2 to get out of the jam one of which is cabrera. Next inning I can't score. First batter for detroit is anthony gose who has a 38 rating in power against righties. First pitch is a no doubter over the wall in right. I could've been pissed. Really 38 power? No doubter in extras for a walk off? No reality was I slacked off. It was gose. I lazily tried to slip a fastball by him and it was right down the middle. Hopefully I learned for next time.
          Yep, Gose' hot zone vs righties is red hot down the middle.
          T-BONE.

          Talking about things nobody cares.

          Screw Discord. Make OS Great Again.

          Comment

          • saucerset
            Rookie
            • Jul 2010
            • 482

            #80
            Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

            I don't believe there is a certain code in the game that suddenly give the CPU an advantage, but maybe there is something that is triggered by the way the user is playing the game. I've been blown out but I have also thrown a perfect game. What was the difference in those that allowed them to happen that way.

            Maybe the user is playing in such a way that it sparks the CPU to gain momentum. The users team senses it and kind of goes into a nervous/panic mode that causes errors that wouldn't have otherwise happened. Some mentioned earlier about KC have the #1 defense IRL but has an abundance of errors in the game. A couple years ago the M's had the #1 D but holy cow I couldn't play a single game without at least 2 errors. Was it the game or was it triggered by how I was using the team?

            So there may be a 'code' but I don't think it is set up to give the CPU an advantage, but more there to react to the way the user is playing the game. Kind of like the one who posted about noticing the CPU becoming aggressive and threw a pitch outside to get it to chase. Little things like that could be adding up but the user isn't paying attention to the momentum that may be swinging to the CPU's favor. A mound visit or walking a player to put more pressure on the hitter could change things.

            I don't know, I am just throwing out ideas. I have enjoyed reading this thread about 'Let's discuss this and not just deny everything.'

            *update* Just got done playing 2 games of my franchise in Oakland. In the first game my pitcher gave up 6 runs on 8 hits in the 2nd inning. I swapped him out and still lost 7-4. Oh well. So next game I have King Felix on the mound. He has only given up 2 hits and 0 ER through 8 2/3. He gives up a soft single so I decide to bring in Rodney to close out the game. Rodney gives up a hit to the gap and now runners are on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs and I'm leading by 2. The next pitch is a game ending grounder to SS who performs a classic o'le on the ball and 2 runs score. Next pitcher and next pitch is a game ending HR. So just like that I was one out away from a shutout only to lose. Do I blame the game? Or do I try to figure out of something changed in the confidence of my team when Felix gave up that hit. Now the team is on edge with 2 runners on and still needing one more out. Next hit is a grounder to short who botches the ball. Is that 'code' or just a change in team confidence? What could I have done different to keep the momentum in my favor? Keep Felix in at over 100 pitches and no energy? Possibly.
            Last edited by saucerset; 06-01-2015, 11:21 PM.

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            • bcruise
              Hall Of Fame
              • Mar 2004
              • 23274

              #81
              Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

              It's been mentioned, but I think the biggest common thread you're going to find among the people who believe this exists is that they play on HOF difficulty or higher. I honestly don't know if I've ever seen anyone claim this on All-Star or below.

              I will once again suggest lowering the difficulty as the best means of controlling this phenomenon (because there's not much else I can say at this point - Nomo pretty much nailed it earlier). And, if All-Star is too easy there is All-Star+ through dynamic difficulty, which can now be locked in and prevented from changing once you've reached that level. Essentially, we have 10 different selectable difficulty levels to choose from in this year's game, it just takes a little time to access the + levels. But the payoff is worth it, as I've found AllStar+ pitching to be a very nice middle ground between AS being a bit too passive and HOF too unforgiving.

              Comment

              • nomo17k
                Permanently Banned
                • Feb 2011
                • 5735

                #82
                Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                My stance on the issues raised in relation to comeback/rubber-banding has become pretty similar to what countryboy has written earlier in the thread.

                While debating on the existence of such code is entirely meaningless (because it is for a fact does not exist... it really does not exist, dammit!!), some (though not all) of the frustrations that people feel and express playing the game may be of substance and can potentially become valuable feedback as to how users want to interact with a simulation-oriented sport game like this. I don't think people need to be shunned expressing their frustrations.

                That said, people who have been in the forum long enough should also be courteous enough not to beat the dead horse which is "that mysterious code" by casting those issues in the light of "that mysterious code" (because, you know, it really does not exist). For people who do want to see the game keep improving (we all are), it only side tracks from what can actually be done to make that happen.

                If the focus of the discussion is whether that mysterious code exists, then there is nothing to talk about (it doesn't exist).

                But there of course are always things to talk about in terms of people's experiences with the game. Some of them definitely become valuable feedback, so I'd like people to focus more on debating them, rather than focusing on personal interpretation of the existence of that mysterious code (which does not exist).
                The Show CPU vs. CPU game stats: 2018,17,16,15,14,13,12,11

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                • nomo17k
                  Permanently Banned
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 5735

                  #83
                  Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                  Originally posted by bcruise
                  It's been mentioned, but I think the biggest common thread you're going to find among the people who believe this exists is that they play on HOF difficulty or higher. I honestly don't know if I've ever seen anyone claim this on All-Star or below.

                  I will once again suggest lowering the difficulty as the best means of controlling this phenomenon (because there's not much else I can say at this point - Nomo pretty much nailed it earlier). And, if All-Star is too easy there is All-Star+ through dynamic difficulty, which can now be locked in and prevented from changing once you've reached that level. Essentially, we have 10 different selectable difficulty levels to choose from in this year's game, it just takes a little time to access the + levels. But the payoff is worth it, as I've found AllStar+ pitching to be a very nice middle ground between AS being a bit too passive and HOF too unforgiving.

                  Adding to this suggestion, one area of the game that tends to be overlooked is how important pitch location is while pitching in this game.

                  I don't wish to sound like that I'm singling out P.A.D., but he's clearly been frustrated for a while playing on HoF but he also publish his play setting, so it is slightly easier to see how he actually plays the game.... and I do notice that he's playing on HoF but also lowers Pitch Control/Consistency sliders for human way down to 2 (out of 10). I do think that does contribute significantly to how he seems to often pitch poorly in late innings (both with starter with low energy and relievers with innately poor BB/9 ratings).

                  If I feel pitching on HoF or Leg is a requirement for my own gameplay, then I may actually increase those sliders hoping that I have a little more control over my own pitches. CPU gets ability boosts here and there already by the higher difficulty, so in order to counterbalance that trend, I should actually giving myself some boost in pitch command. That way, I'd have more control over my own fate, even if CPU is getting boosts due to higher difficulty. I'd be doing the opposite if I lower pitching related sliders.


                  The reason why I say this is that I used to use pitching interfaces like Meter and Pure Analog with which I tend to have more control over my own pitches. I had few issues pitching at HoF or Leg, but I did not enjoy the interface because I could cruise without giving up walks. It should also be noted that the best online gamers tend to prefer these interfaces, as they have better pitch command and therefore advantage.

                  I'm more a guy who wants to enjoy the game in a sim-style, which means I actually want my pitchers having hard time commanding pitches, so the last couple years I have almost exclusively used Pulse or Classic (and often even lower pitching related sliders).

                  What I notice, though, is that it is very difficult for me to pitch realistically, let alone successfully, using Classic on higher difficulty levels. I increased pitching difficulty in hope of making commanding pitches more difficult and yielding more walks, but what often ended up happening is that instead of throwing a lot more balls to result in walks, a lot of pitches go deeper in the strike zone, which CPU has no issues hitting solidly. So most of the time my pitchers end up having high WHIPs, with the increase mostly coming from a higher number of hits issued instead of allowing more walks.


                  I've read that Meter has been made a little more inaccurate this year (to be more in line with less accurate interfaces I suppose), so if you are using Meter and pitching on a higher difficulty levels, I can imagine the same sort of thing happening.


                  And also, let's not forget about the whole "pitcher confidence" debates that used to pop up often in the past. That system has been revealed to be just an adjustment on pitcher command, but even then that adjustment on pitch command made the game fairly magically dynamic, to make some people think it almost dictated the whole ebb and flow of the game itself.

                  All in all I think all these things simply amount to how important pitch location is in this game.
                  Last edited by nomo17k; 06-02-2015, 02:10 AM.
                  The Show CPU vs. CPU game stats: 2018,17,16,15,14,13,12,11

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                  • vbnh
                    Just started!
                    • Jun 2015
                    • 4

                    #84
                    Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                    No lead is supposed to be safe. Ask the LA Clippers.

                    Comment

                    • KBLover
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 12172

                      #85
                      Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                      Originally posted by nomo17k
                      If I feel pitching on HoF or Leg is a requirement for my own gameplay, then I may actually increase those sliders hoping that I have a little more control over my own pitches. CPU gets ability boosts here and there already by the higher difficulty, so in order to counterbalance that trend, I should actually giving myself some boost in pitch command. That way, I'd have more control over my own fate, even if CPU is getting boosts due to higher difficulty. I'd be doing the opposite if I lower pitching related sliders.

                      I'm more a guy who wants to enjoy the game in a sim-style, which means I actually want my pitchers having hard time commanding pitches, so the last couple years I have almost exclusively used Pulse or Classic (and often even lower pitching related sliders).


                      I pitch on HoF Classic as I find All-Star not challenging enough, even with lower sliders.

                      What I've done was lower CPU hitting (mostly contact and solid hits) so that they make realistic mistakes and increased control/consistency. Then I try to work the edges and let the pitcher ratings come into play.

                      Sometimes the pitches leak back over the plate, miss a lot, etc, but then they are still able to hit good/decent spots and be effective. I still have to be concerned with pitch "confidence" and overall as well and I can see/feel when my guys are losing it. They miss locations horribly, can't throw good strikes, etc.
                      "Some people call it butterflies, but to him, it probably feels like pterodactyls in his stomach." --Plesac in MLB18

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                      • bcruise
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Mar 2004
                        • 23274

                        #86
                        Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                        Just had a casual game I was playing on All-Star where the CPU rallied from down 7-4, while down to its last strike multiple times. First batter pops out, second batter K's, third batter hits a foul pop that just barely inches its way into the seats, then the floodgates open. Two walks on long AB's with a ton of foul-offs, a hit batter and finally a bases-clearing double. After they tied it I actually paused to the game to confirm that it really was on All-Star and not HOF, because that was right out of HOF difficulty's playbook (not to mention the Cubs' playbook on how to lose games...)

                        I did eventually end up winning the game after escaping that with the game tied.

                        It is what it is - comebacks and big innings are going to happen on any level, and I don't believe it has to do with any specific code. What I know is this - if the CPU can make such an egregious rally happen on All-Star, then I KNOW it is going to happen on the difficulties that are even higher than that, and probably with a far higher frequency than what would be considered normal over the course of a season. I think people underestimate All-Star's challenge level a little bit sometimes.

                        I did save the video if anyone wants to see it - it's pretty wild especially when it just fouls off pitch after pitch.

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                        • countryboy
                          Growing pains
                          • Sep 2003
                          • 52789

                          #87
                          Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                          Originally posted by bcruise
                          Just had a casual game I was playing on All-Star where the CPU rallied from down 7-4, while down to its last strike multiple times. First batter pops out, second batter K's, third batter hits a foul pop that just barely inches its way into the seats, then the floodgates open. Two walks on long AB's with a ton of foul-offs, a hit batter and finally a bases-clearing double. After they tied it I actually paused to the game to confirm that it really was on All-Star and not HOF, because that was right out of HOF difficulty's playbook (not to mention the Cubs' playbook on how to lose games...)

                          I did eventually end up winning the game after escaping that with the game tied.

                          It is what it is - comebacks and big innings are going to happen on any level, and I don't believe it has to do with any specific code. What I know is this - if the CPU can make such an egregious rally happen on All-Star, then I KNOW it is going to happen on the difficulties that are even higher than that, and probably with a far higher frequency than what would be considered normal over the course of a season. I think people underestimate All-Star's challenge level a little bit sometimes.

                          I did save the video if anyone wants to see it - it's pretty wild especially when it just fouls off pitch after pitch.
                          The thing is though is I play on default Hall of Fame (Pitching/Fielding/Hitting) and I don't believe there are any cheap boosts or anything of the sort at that level. In fact, I would probably say that over the course of 150 games or so, the amount of meltdowns/miraculous comebacks has been 10 or even less. Sure I've blown leads and I get frustrated, but I also think back afterwards and think, if I would've done this or done that, things would've been different possibly. And sometimes things just happen and the baseball Gods are against you that day.

                          I would really like for those who are seeing it to post their settings: difficulty level, slider adjustments, hitting interface, pitching interface, quick counts, and happenings from the comeback. Like I've said a few times already and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, I don't believe any code nor boost exists in the game, based on my experience. But enough people are seeing the same outcomes that I think its worthwhile to see if there are common factors and see what solutions can be found, if any.
                          I can't shave with my eyes closed, meaning each day I have to look at myself in the mirror and respect who I see.

                          I miss the old days of Operation Sports :(


                          Louisville Cardinals/St.Louis Cardinals

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                          • raneman85
                            Pro
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 831

                            #88
                            Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                            I play a mix of HOF & All-Star. Often I can't tell the difference many times. I usually lose on HOF. HOF against CPU is less forgiving when pitching. Defensively I need to shift more to cover the power alleys. Hitting wise HOF is faster and the PCI smaller. I strike out more but also have more extra basehits because my contact is more centered. All-Star I get get a lot of At'Em hits. If I play 2 HOF games and switch to All-Star I need 4-5 innings to adjust to pitch speed; often too early on the swing being over aggressive. I feel the eye can adjust quicker to faster speed than to slower speed. I do see a significant difference with both levels on default in DD compared to default in Franchise.

                            I also found when down by a few runs the IDGAF attitude helps my approach. The more intense i am, the less effective I play. I'm going with the theory that the game stays pretty much the same and it's the player who changes.
                            Steelers, Penguins, Penn State, Pirates, Red Sox, Manchester United.

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                            • CujoMatty
                              Member of Rush Nation
                              • Oct 2007
                              • 5445

                              #89
                              Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                              Originally posted by bcruise
                              Just had a casual game I was playing on All-Star where the CPU rallied from down 7-4, while down to its last strike multiple times. First batter pops out, second batter K's, third batter hits a foul pop that just barely inches its way into the seats, then the floodgates open. Two walks on long AB's with a ton of foul-offs, a hit batter and finally a bases-clearing double. After they tied it I actually paused to the game to confirm that it really was on All-Star and not HOF, because that was right out of HOF difficulty's playbook (not to mention the Cubs' playbook on how to lose games...)

                              I did eventually end up winning the game after escaping that with the game tied.

                              It is what it is - comebacks and big innings are going to happen on any level, and I don't believe it has to do with any specific code. What I know is this - if the CPU can make such an egregious rally happen on All-Star, then I KNOW it is going to happen on the difficulties that are even higher than that, and probably with a far higher frequency than what would be considered normal over the course of a season. I think people underestimate All-Star's challenge level a little bit sometimes.

                              I did save the video if anyone wants to see it - it's pretty wild especially when it just fouls off pitch after pitch.
                              This happens to me sometimes too.
                              I actually had a similar story but it was opposite in that I did it to the cpu.

                              The red sox had me 6-0 that I came back from only to lose in extras. Most epic game I'd ever had. But my point is that I come back against the cpu as much if not more than they do to me.
                              2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                              2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                              2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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                              • Dynasty Legend 99
                                Rookie
                                • Dec 2014
                                • 426

                                #90
                                Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

                                Originally posted by HozAndMoose
                                He could have ran to first before Butler got there. Ive seen Butler run to first. Im pretty sure he stops for BBQ on the way every time.
                                Don't hate on Billy Butler, I mean if there is any guy in baseball that NEEDS PED's it's him but all I got to say is.
                                That Steal. #ThatsWhatSpeedDo
                                NCAAM: Wichita State Shockers
                                MLB: Kansas City Royals (AL) Milwaukee Brewers (NL)
                                NFL: Philadelphia EaglesKansas City Chiefs

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