Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

Let's not make this personal and refrain from calling out "one person".

The topic is about a perceived issue with the game.

I would go even further and suggest this thread be closed up as it is begging for the type of back and forth that gets people hot and bothered/banned. Viewing some of the snippy back and forth already in here, I am surprised the mods have let it go this far already knowing what always happens every single year in this exact type of thread.

[nick_sr]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

Galsu brought tthis up op!!!!! This thing has plagued the game for year's.

[CujoMatty]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

I would go even further and suggest this thread be closed up as it is begging for the type of back and forth that gets people hot and bothered/banned. Viewing some of the snippy back and forth already in here, I am surprised the mods have let it go this far already knowing what always happens every single year in this exact type of thread.

This is the 4th or 5th threads of this kind though. This one shuts another one will happen. I'm all for the back and forth and I find it extremely interesting people's experiences with the issue.

If people get banned because they can't be respectful they probably shouldn't be allowed on OS anyways. It's not that hard to follow the rules.

I think as long as people are being respectful they have every right to be heard. And if they handle it properly it could be constructive criticism that may be valuable for future titles.

[saucerset]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

There are ways to stop it. I just haven't figured out how.

I believe it is just a momentum swing and I believe there is a way to combat it. The player has to find ways to sway the momentum back/in his favor. Find ways to slow the game down when the AI starts gaining confidence.

Things that can be a momentum changer:
Double play
Extra base hit
Stolen base
Strike out
Scoring
....I'm sure there's more but right now I'm not thinking about it too much.

I was just at a minor league game tonight and the home team was getting beat 4-0 until the 6th. Then they scored 4, 4, 1 in the next 3 innings to win 9-6. Some people would view that as a rubberband type action, but it was basically the home team taking the momentum in the game. It started with a couple really good defensive plays by the home team and it transitioned to their bats in the next half inning. The same thing can be done by the user and the AI.

I think for me this is going to put this subject to bed. I am going to continue to work on swinging momentum in the game or keeping it on my side as long as I can. Until the first pitch is thrown, both teams are even.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

This is the 4th or 5th threads of this kind though. This one shuts another one will happen. I'm all for the back and forth and I find it extremely interesting people's experiences with the issue.

If people get banned because they can't be respectful they probably shouldn't be allowed on OS anyways. It's not that hard to follow the rules.

I think as long as people are being respectful they have every right to be heard. And if they handle it properly it could be constructive criticism that may be valuable for future titles.

In theory that's all well and good and sounds nice, but in practice this hasn't been possible in these types of threads. If you've been around these parts for a year or more, you know exactly what I mean.

[kehlis]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

I would go even further and suggest this thread be closed up as it is begging for the type of back and forth that gets people hot and bothered/banned. Viewing some of the snippy back and forth already in here, I am surprised the mods have let it go this far already knowing what always happens every single year in this exact type of thread.

You can keep doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different result but without something being changed it won't happen.


We've closed these threads on cue every year yet they keep popping up.

Now we are trying to let the discussion play out to see if there is a different result.

Yes, some of the discussion has been tense but that's partially because of how we have handled these threads in the past.


I assure you these threads are being very closely watched but if we can have a discussion there is no reason to not let the thread play out.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

You can keep doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different result but without something being changed it won't happen.


We've closed these threads on cue every year yet they keep popping up.

Now we are trying to let the discussion play out to see if there is a different result.

Yes, some of the discussion has been tense but that's partially because of how we have handled these threads in the past.


I assure you these threads are being very closely watched but if we can have a discussion there is no reason to not let the thread play out.

Fair point. I was thinking maybe there is a way to prevent a thread from being made with certain words in the title like "comeback code" and "rubberband ai" in the first place but then people would just find/invent other terms to use so I suppose that's not a viable solution either. Just making a friendly suggestion is all.

[spitoon]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

I find these discussions fascinating. I've been playing The Show since 2007 and there has been discussion of this every year. It makes me think there must be something to it, but I'll go on record as saying that I have never thought of it in those terms.

Sure, I've lost games late, but I've always attributed it to momentum shifts and me not focusing, or simply "that's baseball".

I like to think that that is one of the great things about this game. You need to focus all the time to win. I know you can't really compare a video game to 'real life', but lets do that for a second. MLB is the highest level in the world, the best 0.0001% of players in the world competing with every fiber of themselves to win the highest honor in the sport. If you don't "bear down" at every moment, you will get punished. Isn't that the way it should be?

My routine is that I get up early on Saturday and Sunday and play a game or two before the rest of my family gets out of bed. On occasion, if I sleep in a bit longer or a game goes to extra innings, someone will get up and come downstairs while I'm playing. Almost invariably, if I am in a close game, I'll lose. That momentary loss of focus, maybe forgetting the count, or throwing the wrong pitch in the wrong situation costs me the game.

The last game I played last weekend, I managed to tie the game late, and then in the bottom of the ninth my left fielder dropped a shallow fly ball to allow the winning run to score...I cursed, then laughed and moved on. "That's baseball".

I really think, if you watch enough real MLB, these things happen all the time. Teams get hot, pitchers get cold, players make errors at critical times. To steal a line from EA these things are "in the game", and I love it.

[KBLover]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

It seems as if once that event happens, the confidence level of every single player on the field is affected negatively and the confidence of every hitter is affected positively, causing the comebacks to happen. The question is . . . why and how do we combat it? And why does it only seem to happen when the CPU goes down? That's not realistic, is it?

By getting the next guy?

I mean, sure, I've had situations where my reliever gives up a walk and single to put runners on the corners with none out. Or Solano makes a stupid throw for a 2-base error. Stanton just whiffing on a routine base hit to him, turning a single into a triple, etc. I can "feel" Paco Rodriguez (my closer) just losing it and I'm "PACO! Come on, Paco!"

If I have someone in the bullpen and the current pitcher's confidence is bad (or he's even close to tired), I'll pull him. Otherwise, I just focus on trying to get the guy that's up. A DP, strike out, something. Sometimes it works, sometimes...it's just not my night and the pitcher flubs it up - especially on HoF Classic pitching.

I guess I don't have a "constructive" answer because to me, it's just baseball and the ways to stop rallies since you won't be able to always prevent them from trying to get something started.

I don't agree that it's just with the CPU trailing. To me, I see it going both ways - probably why I don't see it unrealistic.

[nomo17k]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

I am no longer interested in engaging in what has become the main topic of this thread, but since I've written and made a particular comment/suggestion on pitch command, I follow up on it one last time by presenting a piece of data which some might find useful.

For those who feel CPU hitting becomes very aggressive (which basically manifests in CPU hitting successfully, which should show up in batting average) in certain situations, I strongly suggest 3 simple stats after each game. Take a note of the number of at-bats and hits for *CPU* from the box score, and also the number of "Deep Strikes" and all "Strikes" (available in Pitcher Analysis screen) *you threw against CPU.*

A deep strike is a strike thrown within the central tile when the strike zone is divided into 9 x 9 equal-size tiles.

AB and H are for computing batting average, and deep strikes and total strikes are for computing the % fraction of strikes that ends up being deep strikes (= deep strikes / total strikes %).

Look at the plot attached to this post. This is from my own games pitching against CPU at All-star (blue circles) and HoF (red circles). The vertical dashed line indicates the average deep strike fraction from CPU vs. CPU games (about 12%... which is actually roughly the fraction of deep strikes CPU throws against you hitting on All-star). The horizontal dashed line is the typical batting average in MLB (.255).

What you clearly see is that the greater the number of poor strikes you throw in the middle of the strike zone, CPU capitalizes on them and its batting average sky rockets.

If you keep the deep strike fraction down, you are throwing many quality strikes near the black, which CPU doesn't hit them very hard, resulting in low batting average.

That dividing line is about 12% (the coincidence to the deep strike fraction CPU throws in All-star is likely not an accident).


This is one piece of evidence why it is very important not to throw too many pitches in the strike zone.

It also provides a reason for not lowering Pitcher Command too low and make pitches aimed at the black drift toward the deeper part of the strike zone too much.

This is also a reason why using pitching interfaces with intrinsically poorer pitch command can give you a substantial disadvantage, if you are not good at using it and/or doesn't properly do slider adjustments.

[Padgoi]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

I am no longer interested in engaging in what has become the main topic of this thread, but since I've written and made a particular comment/suggestion on pitch command, I follow up on it one last time by presenting a piece of data which some might find useful.

For those who feel CPU hitting becomes very aggressive (which basically manifests in CPU hitting successfully, which should show up in batting average) in certain situations, I strongly suggest 3 simple stats after each game. Take a note of the number of at-bats and hits for *CPU* from the box score, and also the number of "Deep Strikes" and all "Strikes" (available in Pitcher Analysis screen) *you threw against CPU.*

A deep strike is a strike thrown within the central tile when the strike zone is divided into 9 x 9 equal-size tiles.

AB and H are for computing batting average, and deep strikes and total strikes are for computing the % fraction of strikes that ends up being deep strikes (= deep strikes / total strikes %).

Look at the plot attached to this post. This is from my own games pitching against CPU at All-star (blue circles) and HoF (red circles). The vertical dashed line indicates the average deep strike fraction from CPU vs. CPU games (about 12%... which is actually roughly the fraction of deep strikes CPU throws against you hitting on All-star). The horizontal dashed line is the typical batting average in MLB (.255).

What you clearly see is that the greater the number of poor strikes you throw in the middle of the strike zone, CPU capitalizes on them and its batting average sky rockets.

If you keep the deep strike fraction down, you are throwing many quality strikes near the black, which CPU doesn't hit them very hard, resulting in low batting average.

That dividing line is about 12% (the coincidence to the deep strike fraction CPU throws in All-star is likely not an accident).


This is one piece of evidence why it is very important not to throw too many pitches in the strike zone.

It also provides a reason for not lowering Pitcher Command too low and make pitches aimed at the black drift toward the deeper part of the strike zone too much.

This is also a reason why using pitching interfaces with intrinsically poorer pitch command can give you a substantial disadvantage, if you are not good at using it and/or doesn't properly do slider adjustments.

Very interesting and good piece of analytics. Clearly I need to increase my pitcher control slider because at 3, there are just too many pitches going astray from where I'm aiming, resulting in harder hit balls (as evidenced by your graph). Unfortunately this graph only takes batting average vs. deep strikes into consideration and not the other main point of this debate, which is the "funky" things that go on many times during these rallies that cause the rallies to actually become rallies.

[nomo17k]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

Very interesting and good piece of analytics. Clearly I need to increase my pitcher control slider because at 3, there are just too many pitches going astray from where I'm aiming, resulting in harder hit balls (as evidenced by your graph). Unfortunately this graph only takes batting average vs. deep strikes into consideration and not the other main point of this debate, which is the "funky" things that go on many times during these rallies that cause the rallies to actually become rallies.

SMH...

It has become the main point of the debate only because you just cannot get past your own (baseless) judgmental mindset.

Anyway, as I clearly indicated earlier, I'm totally done with interacting with you on the matter.

I presented the data for those to whom this type of discussion matters more than conspiring to create conspiracy theories. I did not do the analysis for you.

[vidgames]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

Nomo quality posts. Good back and forth about this issue that has been in the games for years.

[Padgoi]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

SMH...

It has become the main point of the debate only because you just cannot get past your own (baseless) judgmental mindset.

Anyway, as I clearly indicated earlier, I'm totally done with interacting with you on the matter.

I presented the data for those to whom this type of discussion matters more than conspiring to create conspiracy theories. I did not do the analysis for you.

I never said you did do it for me. I was pointing out that the graph only explains the association between higher batting averages and pitch placement. I think I've proven time and again that my basis for this debate is improving the game and has nothing to do with conspiracy theories. The fact remains that it's literally impossible to prove either side of the argument other than to say "The developers said it" or "I've experienced it," so you assuming your graph "proves" anything other than that fat pitches are hit harder doesn't get to the root of the issue at all.

[HozAndMoose]

Re: Rubberbanding AI is killing my enjoyment

I never said you did do it for me. I was pointing out that the graph only explains the association between higher batting averages and pitch placement. I think I've proven time and again that my basis for this debate is improving the game and has nothing to do with conspiracy theories. The fact remains that it's literally impossible to prove either side of the argument other than to say "The developers said it" or "I've experienced it," so you assuming your graph "proves" anything other than that fat pitches are hit harder doesn't get to the root of the issue at all.

If it cant be proven then what is the point of the conversation continuing?