I really, really want to like this game.

[jackbquick]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

You did not respond to my post properly. You left out details and it does not appear that you read it thoroughly enough.

Why does what I wrote lead to the game lacking real physics?

Being a game and not an academic simulation of real world, any game would *model* certain types of physics by some sort of probabilistic models instead of carrying out full-blown physics models, and there really is nothing wrong with doing that...

If there is anything that we could fruitfully discuss, then it should be about whether the game is realistically modeling real-life baseball or not, and whether the underlying mechanism actually uses real physics or not isn't all that important.

At least for the part of game where physics can be really complicated (like hitter swinging a bat and the bat making contact with the pitch with various spin, etc.), I personally think it is only sufficient if things are simulated "realistically enough given limitations."

Your post indicated the PCI does not map directly to the bat barrel and takes into account player attributes. That is why I reached the conclusion I did.

I'm not asking for a academic level physics and I don't see why it would take anything that complicated to accomplish what I'm asking for.

I've stated the game produces the expected results the majority of the time. I would like the game to be consistent and deterministic, producing the expected results all the time. I do not like seeing the ball above the PCI turn into a ground ball, the ball below the PCI turn into a line drive/popup, and I especially do not like the PCI centered on the ball producing anything but a line drive. If you are always checking the swing feedback you see all three of the above scenarios occur. The centered PCI producing popup does not occur as frequently as the other two, but I've seen it numerous times. I'm only speaking of good timing.

I understand the adjustments being made with late/early timing and don't have a complaint regarding those results other than too often being rewarded with hits.

I want to be rewarded in a consistent manner for my successes and penalized for my failures.

[KBLover]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

I do not like seeing the ball above the PCI turn into a ground ball, the ball below the PCI turn into a line drive/popup, and I especially do not like the PCI centered on the ball producing anything but a line drive. If you are always checking the swing feedback you see all three of the above scenarios occur. The centered PCI producing popup does not occur as frequently as the other two, but I've seen it numerous times. I'm only speaking of good timing.

We don't have that information in regards to where the bat was (I don't think?). Unless we know how the bat actually hit the ball (i.e. where was the barrel at the contact point), we can't be sure of anything.

That's not "defending the game" but if the bat could be anywhere in the PCI (or maybe anywhere at all)? Then the PCI location alone doesn't tell us what we need to know. Even if it centered over the pitch location the bat could have moved through the zone at the high half of the PCI circle - that would produce a grounder (or should).

I would actually like to see the contact point (i.e. where the bat was when it hit the ball), not just the PCI. That would help with a lot of this.

[jackbquick]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

That's not necessarily true. I don't think it's possible to implement real physics that takes into account the visual of a ball striking a bat. What the game does it calculate the quality of contact (based on ratings of hitter and pitcher, and swing type (early, good, late)) and give the physics of the reaction based on that.. not based on anything visual (ball/bat contact).

I don't understand why it isn't possible. They know when I push the button to swing, they know they location of the PCI when I push the button, and they know where the ball is at when I push the button. Perhaps, incorrectly, I'm perceiving the PCI as the bat barrel. If the PCI is below the ball you have a fly ball, centered a line drive, and below a ground ball. The trajectories would then be based off how far off center is the ball when I push the button, the location in the zone of the ball, which translates to different swing planes, and horizontal location on the PCI, which is was it hit off the handle, the sweet spot, or the end.

They obviously already have some form of this in the game and it responds as expected most of the time. I just want it to respond as expected all the time. Nothing more.

[Padgoi]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

Why can't we just have true physics in hitting with cursor batting where the better hitters have bigger cursors?

[jackbquick]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

We don't have that information in regards to where the bat was (I don't think?). Unless we know how the bat actually hit the ball (i.e. where was the barrel at the contact point), we can't be sure of anything.

I've been assuming the PCI is the barrel. If that's not the case, then I guess my primary issue with the game becomes why isn't the PCI the barrel.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

If I hit another hard line drive at an outfielder on a perfectly timed pitch...

My BABIP is really low. And yeah, I also after with the people about the animations. Another thing I keep running into is the late inning stuff. Odubel Herrera hit an opposite field home run on a pitch low and away out of the zone in cold weather. It just happens way too often.

Also, has anyone figured out a way to get a good balance between slower seeing eye hits and triples? I can't balance those at all. I'm talking about user hitting.

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk

[KBLover]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

I've been assuming the PCI is the barrel. If that's not the case, then I guess my primary issue with the game becomes why isn't the PCI the barrel.

Yeah - not the precise location of the barrel (and for some hitters, it would mean they are swinging tree trunks with how fat the PCI is for them )

I think it's the "area where the hitter can make contact most often". What kind of contact and batted ball type depends on ratings of pitcher/batter/pitch thrown and where the bat actually passes and makes contact (timing and location of the swing).

That's a good question, though. That would be a good interface option. But I guess that would make The Show too much like Pro Yakyuu Spirits (that game uses a bat cursor that does represent the bat itself)?

Likewise, even for the existing interfaces, why aren't we shown exactly where the bat hit the ball?

I guess the closest we could get now is lowering contact a LOT so the PCI shrinks to about the size of the bat. Though, I don't know how the game would handle that (except on Directional...it would be K haven lol)

[nomo17k]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

Your post indicated the PCI does not map directly to the bat barrel and takes into account player attributes. That is why I reached the conclusion I did.

I'm not asking for a academic level physics and I don't see why it would take anything that complicated to accomplish what I'm asking for.

I've stated the game produces the expected results the majority of the time. I would like the game to be consistent and deterministic, producing the expected results all the time. I do not like seeing the ball above the PCI turn into a ground ball, the ball below the PCI turn into a line drive/popup, and I especially do not like the PCI centered on the ball producing anything but a line drive. If you are always checking the swing feedback you see all three of the above scenarios occur. The centered PCI producing popup does not occur as frequently as the other two, but I've seen it numerous times. I'm only speaking of good timing.

I understand the adjustments being made with late/early timing and don't have a complaint regarding those results other than too often being rewarded with hits.

I want to be rewarded in a consistent manner for my successes and penalized for my failures.

I can understand your argument, and I think one way to look at this is the issue surrounding trade-off between user input and (truer-to-like) game balance, something I've touched upon in some other thread... not going to repeat it here but here is the link if you are curious: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=247.

Simply put, from what I have gathered from various sources, things are not perfectly deterministic (not exactly one-to-one between user input and outcome) because user input alone does not provide enough variation in input data for the game to lead things to a wider variety of outcomes that actually happen in real life.

In real-life swinging a bat to make a contact happens only after the very complicated physical movements (effectively infinite amount of variations), which even the best trained athlete cannot coordinate the same way every time. Therefore we have a continuum of possible outcomes due to a continuum of possibilities in ways we coordinate our body.

With Zone hitting, the game basically takes in only the PCI location and swing timing, and that's only two data points from which the mechanism of hitting needs to be simulated. With Timing, it's just one.

... how should we expect to have a variety of outcomes from such a limited set of data points?

And, in a sense, one could also argue that being able to place a hard-object "cursor" in a specific location and being able to much more precisely control the contact timing with a simple push of a button (and executing this with a much higher success rate in the game) is no better representation of "realistic physics," because it is simply so much easier than hitting in real-life.

I think the simplest way to understand why a tiny bit of randomness is added to modulate the user input is to simulate the real-life difficulty of coordination of hand-eye/body movements.

Is that fair? Should we feel cheated because apparently some things seem out of our hands due to this "randomness" thing?

I personally don't feel that way, especially if it is to a degree that makes it possible for me to play realistic MLB-type baseball just with a DS4 controller, but it's obvious some people do feel cheated by the game at times.



That said, I do feel that the PCI location and resulting hits are, in the vast majority of the cases, in sync with how I feel things should happen based on my stick skills... I do use Zone and check swing feedback almost every AB, and I actually don't remember popping up when I successfully centered the PCI on a pitch... a pop-up is usually induced when you are late on a pitch, and in that case the post-pitch PCI usually shifts downward to reflect the fact that I was late on the pitch.

And in general, I honestly have never played any video baseball game that replicates the nuance of swing timing/location and hit results better than the recent iterations of The Show. Not saying it's perfect or anything, but most video games don't replicate nuances in hitting as well as this game does (and hence gets old very quickly... to me anyways). Unfortunately that also means the game replicates the frustrating aspects of real-life hitting just as much.

[dmslapped]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

Pretty much every perfectly timed fastball that i guess correctly is a pop up behind the catcher. I wanna love this game... buts it's so frustrating when I can't get a hit on anything while the cpu seems to sneak something up the middle every time

[Artman22]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

Why can't we just have true physics in hitting with cursor batting where the better hitters have bigger cursors?

I would take this any day over what the show has now. It gives the user more control over the outcomes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thescottyglasgow]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

I understand that people want real stats after they simulate, but when I am playing a game I do not expect real stats and I do not want the computer making me worse. I would rather up my difficulty if I am getting too many hits and runs. I do not want the computer deciding it is unrealistic and make my good hits outs, I will decide its unrealistic and up my settings.

[SECElit3]

I really, really want to like this game.

My outfielders dropping routine popups nearly made me return this game a few days. I officially quit mut today so the show will have my ful attention from now on n i hope my i get a better feeling. I stopped playing 14 after 2months n wish not to do the same this year.

I've never seen an outfielder drop a routine fly ball. I just finalized my dynamic difficulty sliders, and man am I enjoying this game!

I will post my finalized sliders tonight.

I feel sorry for the guys who gave up on this game so early. This game plays great baseball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cusefan74]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

I've never seen an outfielder drop a routine fly ball. I just finalized my dynamic difficulty sliders, and man am I enjoying this game!

I will post my finalized sliders tonight.

I feel sorry for the guys who gave up on this game so early. This game plays great baseball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've seen them drop popups a couple of times, but that was before I adjusted the sliders and I have not seen it since. Since then I have seen one popup dropped by my firstbaseman. No big deal, it happens. People need to learn to adjust their sliders before giving up on the game.

Also everyone is talking about the PCI. Am I the only one that turns it off completely? I hate it! It's a whole lot easier to just swing the bat and not worry about moving the PCI around.

[LowerWolf]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

Also everyone is talking about the PCI. Am I the only one that turns it off completely? I hate it! It's a whole lot easier to just swing the bat and not worry about moving the PCI around.

Nope. The scorebug is the only thing I have on screen. The PCI is distracting.

I also don't check my swing feedback. I was falling into the trap a lot of people do where I would check it and get upset when I wasn't getting the results I thought I should be getting, based on the feedback. Much simpler to just play and not worry about it.

[raneman85]

Re: I really, really want to like this game.

My outfielders dropping routine popups nearly made me return this game a few days. I officially quit mut today so the show will have my ful attention from now on n i hope my i get a better feeling. I stopped playing 14 after 2months n wish not to do the same this year.

Nick, I was feeling the same way. Diamond Dynasty is glitchy horrific mode and a total waste of time for enjoyable gameplay. The CPU comeback code and all the other CPU cheating applies only to DD. You can play Franchise, Season, or Playoff on default and not see half the crap you see in DD. Tweaking sliders is a plus.