AI Bullpen Logic

[The Kid 24]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Just curious, did anything change to the last year? Some better AI logic?

Could be just placebo but I played an Exhibition game yesterday where Starter went 5 innings and then AI bullpen used different guy every inning.

I was winning the entire time.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[jcar0725]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Could be just placebo but I played an Exhibition game yesterday where Starter went 5 innings and then AI bullpen used different guy every inning.

I was winning the entire time.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

This was the case for me also in 4 games of franchise, every bullpen guy made an appearance.

[ripwalk]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Could be just placebo but I played an Exhibition game yesterday where Starter went 5 innings and then AI bullpen used different guy every inning.

I was winning the entire time.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

That sounds promising, as from v23 I recalled that the CPU would manage the bullpen much better when they were winning versus if they were behind or it was tied, that was often when they’d pull the run the low rated LRP into the ground …

[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

The logic is definitely the same for simmed games. 2nd SU man finishing the season with 30 innings while the LRP had over 200

[speels]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

I'm starting to think that it's not possible to fix on their current engine.

If it's possible, it's not a priority. I'm tempering my expectations for 24 since it's now March. I'd love to be wrong though.

I can't imagine it being very simple programming when you think what it entails. There are so many if/then scenarios that it may take forever to fix. My guess is there is a simple "if pitcher needs replacing prior inning 7 then use LRP" This would be why they have so many innings.

I can't imagine trying to get an AI to think like an actual human in the 100s of scenarios that there are in baseball simply in regards to pitchers and whether to pull them or not.

[strosdood]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Spring training games still have goofy logic, Starting Pitchers always pitch the 4th inning

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

I can't imagine it being very simple programming when you think what it entails. There are so many if/then scenarios that it may take forever to fix. My guess is there is a simple "if pitcher needs replacing prior inning 7 then use LRP" This would be why they have so many innings.

I can't imagine trying to get an AI to think like an actual human in the 100s of scenarios that there are in baseball simply in regards to pitchers and whether to pull them or not.

Nothing about making a video game is really "simple" but that is no excuse. They are literally paid to do the difficult work to create a working title. Just like you and I are paid to do our jobs and not all tasks are simple things that just anyone could do. This issue is simply not a priority to SDS. If it were, it would have been fixed by now. Logic systems are complicated, but they are far from impossible.

Past MLB games and OOTP have the bullpen logic significantly better than what we get in The Show. The Show's is only the quality it is because SDS does not prioritize improving it. There shouldn't realistically be any sort of engine limitation that would keep them from being able to build out some sort of logic tree that dictates when different bullpen slots are used in simmed or played games.

I can understand that this issue is probably not noticed by the vast majority of the playerbase as they either won't even see it in online play, in DD, or don't realize it is wrong in franchise. So, SDS doesn't see it as being a huge need to spend resources on. I get that. I would assume that is likely the case, too. I doubt their programmers are incapable of fixing it, I just think SDS doesn't see it as something they need to use time to fix since it only hurts the experience of the more diehard fans like the few of us left here worrying about it.

[ripwalk]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

I can't imagine it being very simple programming when you think what it entails. There are so many if/then scenarios that it may take forever to fix. My guess is there is a simple "if pitcher needs replacing prior inning 7 then use LRP" This would be why they have so many innings.

I can't imagine trying to get an AI to think like an actual human in the 100s of scenarios that there are in baseball simply in regards to pitchers and whether to pull them or not.

Getting the AI identical to how a human would control isn’t easy, but getting it better than it is should certainly be doable.

A more controllable depth chart like OOTP would be a good start. You can select roles for pitcher, which inning they typically pitch (7th or later, 8th or later, etc) as well as “use more often” and “avoid high leverage”

With the custom entry options the game obviously has a mechanism to gauge how high or low the leverage is.

Additionally, the game even just starting with the highest rated reliever with at least a certain % of stamina left would be a good way to ensure things are more balanced and better pitchers throw more.

[jcar0725]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Nothing about making a video game is really "simple" but that is no excuse. They are literally paid to do the difficult work to create a working title. Just like you and I are paid to do our jobs and not all tasks are simple things that just anyone could do. This issue is simply not a priority to SDS. If it were, it would have been fixed by now. Logic systems are complicated, but they are far from impossible.

Past MLB games and OOTP have the bullpen logic significantly better than what we get in The Show. The Show's is only the quality it is because SDS does not prioritize improving it. There shouldn't realistically be any sort of engine limitation that would keep them from being able to build out some sort of logic tree that dictates when different bullpen slots are used in simmed or played games.

I can understand that this issue is probably not noticed by the vast majority of the playerbase as they either won't even see it in online play, in DD, or don't realize it is wrong in franchise. So, SDS doesn't see it as being a huge need to spend resources on. I get that. I would assume that is likely the case, too. I doubt their programmers are incapable of fixing it, I just think SDS doesn't see it as something they need to use time to fix since it only hurts the experience of the more diehard fans like the few of us left here worrying about it.

How did I know you would respond to this......lol

[MiracleMet718]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Nothing about making a video game is really "simple" but that is no excuse. They are literally paid to do the difficult work to create a working title. Just like you and I are paid to do our jobs and not all tasks are simple things that just anyone could do. This issue is simply not a priority to SDS. If it were, it would have been fixed by now. Logic systems are complicated, but they are far from impossible.

Past MLB games and OOTP have the bullpen logic significantly better than what we get in The Show. The Show's is only the quality it is because SDS does not prioritize improving it. There shouldn't realistically be any sort of engine limitation that would keep them from being able to build out some sort of logic tree that dictates when different bullpen slots are used in simmed or played games.

I can understand that this issue is probably not noticed by the vast majority of the playerbase as they either won't even see it in online play, in DD, or don't realize it is wrong in franchise. So, SDS doesn't see it as being a huge need to spend resources on. I get that. I would assume that is likely the case, too. I doubt their programmers are incapable of fixing it, I just think SDS doesn't see it as something they need to use time to fix since it only hurts the experience of the more diehard fans like the few of us left here worrying about it.

OOTP is a bad example. It’s pretty much a text sim. But agree that 2k and MVP had it better.

[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Getting the AI identical to how a human would control isn’t easy, but getting it better than it is should certainly be doable.

A more controllable depth chart like OOTP would be a good start. You can select roles for pitcher, which inning they typically pitch (7th or later, 8th or later, etc) as well as “use more often” and “avoid high leverage”

With the custom entry options the game obviously has a mechanism to gauge how high or low the leverage is.

Additionally, the game even just starting with the highest rated reliever with at least a certain % of stamina left would be a good way to ensure things are more balanced and better pitchers throw more.

I think an even simpler fix would be to like stop pitchers from pitching 2 or 3 days in row via a quirk.

[jcar0725]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

I think an even simpler fix would be to like stop pitchers from pitching 2 or 3 days in row via a quirk.

The only problem with that is when you have extra inning games pop up.

[ripwalk]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

OOTP is a bad example. It’s pretty much a text sim. But agree that 2k and MVP had it better.

How is it a bad example ?

Baseball game logic of reliever skill, situation and time of a game are the same in a game whether it’s a text sim or displayed in pretty graphics.

It’s the under the hood decision making/programming that needs adjusting, that has nothing to do with what the graphics look like.

[bcruise]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Just going to step in here to contribute something - take for what it's worth. It's already been well established that LR slot innings are too high - in no way am I disputing that. I think part of it is from Starting Pitchers getting demoted and others making spot starts, but what I want to discuss is the actual in-game decisions that cause those numbers to balloon over the course of a whole year.

Since I play a lot of games I can keep a close eye on who the CPU is using and what the situations are when it brings them in. And I know for a fact that Manager Hook has a strong effect on when someone comes in, both in played games and sims. I currently have it maxed out to try to minimize the number of complete games across the league. As a test, I also have both starter and reliever stamina maxed - the idea being that I want game situation to be the only thing that matters to the CPU when making a pitching change.

I'll be letting CPU vs CPU games play out a ways into a season to see how the CPU's bullpen usage goes.

Opening Day was a pleasant surprise.





Every one of those guys besides the starters is MRP or later in the pen. This was a close game, which means that with manager hook up, the manager was much more likely to make changes if a runner got on base or something. I saw this as a very well-managed game.

So, it CAN happen - it's not like the CPU is just going to go to its long relief automatically in the late innings of a close game, and in this particular case with everyone at full energy on Opening Day it went for its best options. I want to figure out WHY it ends up in LR's getting too many innings, and if it has anything to do with the usual relief guys being at less than full energy.

[MiracleMet718]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

How is it a bad example ?

Baseball game logic of reliever skill, situation and time of a game are the same in a game whether it’s a text sim or displayed in pretty graphics.

It’s the under the hood decision making/programming that needs adjusting, that has nothing to do with what the graphics look like.

Even though it’s decision making, they still have to test it with all of the other features of gameplay vs OOTP where it’s just a simple decision making tool. It’s still long overdue for a fix, but I don’t think it’s just that easy to update the logic and be done with it.