Destined to lose?

[wudl83]

Re: Destined to lose?

Regarding Medlen, he gives up home runs in every game! I mentioned 2 in one game but that's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

Again, this is accounted to the probability. It can happen ingame, it can happen in reality. Have you still not understood what probability means? (Coin flips?)

So the "fact" guess pitch is why they don't adhere to reality tells me their main concern is not realism.

I think that "guess pitch" in general is not too far away from reality. When you think of a hitter in reality who is able to read the opposing pitcher and he does guess a pitch correctly, chances are good he will hit the pitch better than if he had no clue what would be coming there.
The problem is that ingame it doesn't work too good when pitchers have to few pitches. What is the effort you have to put in reading a pitcher who throws two pitches and maybe even one of those two about 80 percent of the time?
So this would mean you would have to scale the effect of the guess pitch feature down. But this again would mean that when you face a pitcher who has 5 pitches and throws all at an even number, you would not get rewarded for guessing a pitch correctly.
This is a very sensitive subject.

And I hope now you see that implementing reality means sometimes sacrificing reality.

[Cavicchi]

Re: Destined to lose?

They concern themselves with a balance between realism and accessibility. If they made it as hard as real life, few people would be able to bat above .100. Would that be fun?

Well, I think they intentionally make the game more difficult with what they give pitchers, such as 99 for movement when it's not justified. I also think pitchers having 2 pitch types would not make the game more difficult, but rather easier, and perhaps that is their concern.

[wudl83]

Re: Destined to lose?

Well, I think they intentionally make the game more difficult with what they give pitchers, such as 99 for movement when it's not justified. I also think pitchers having 2 pitch types would not make the game more difficult, but rather easier, and perhaps that is their concern.

Again, I told you why ratings aren't always comparable to reality or wh ratings have always been criticized by some people.
Please tell me one thing: how would you rate the movement of pitches?
What deserves more movement:
- a slider that breaks hard and short right before the zone and therefore has little but very effective x-axis movement
- a slider that breaks right after the ball left the pitchers hand and therefore has a long and big but less effective x-axis movement
?

[Cavicchi]

Re: Destined to lose?

Again, this is accounted to the probability. It can happen ingame, it can happen in reality. Have you still not understood what probability means? (Coin flips?)

I think that "guess pitch" in general is not too far away from reality. When you think of a hitter in reality who is able to read the opposing pitcher and he does guess a pitch correctly, chances are good he will hit the pitch better than if he had no clue what would be coming there.
The problem is that ingame it doesn't work too good when pitchers have to few pitches. What is the effort you have to put in reading a pitcher who throws two pitches and maybe even one of those two about 80 percent of the time?
So this would mean you would have to scale the effect of the guess pitch feature down. But this again would mean that when you face a pitcher who has 5 pitches and throws all at an even number, you would not get rewarded for guessing a pitch correctly.
This is a very sensitive subject.

And I hope now you see that implementing reality means sometimes sacrificing reality.

What are you talking about? I said he's giving up home runs in every game, and his home run rating is 81, and I have also said on pitches that were put in a location by the game, not by me. Medlen's control rating for those errant changeups is 99!

Oh, I do believe there are rewards in the game, and I also believe there are punishments. I don't think you can have rewards without punishment.

[THESHAMISASHAME]

Re: Destined to lose?

Kept seeing this thread pop up to the top and got sick of seeing it, so thought maybe getting it closed would stop that, but it's only backfired

So let me get this straight you posted in a thread you didnt agree with just to get it closed when many of us have legitimate issues Now thats ludacris

That's why I personally am NOT denying that, at times, there's some "scripted" feeling on how things happen. I want that feeling to go away. .

[wudl83]

Re: Destined to lose?

What are you talking about? I said he's giving up home runs in every game, and his home run rating is 81, and I have also said on pitches that were put in a location by the game, not by me. Medlen's control rating for those errant changeups is 99!

Oh, I do believe there are rewards in the game, and I also believe there are punishments. I don't think you can have rewards without punishment.

You really have no clue what you are talking about, haven't you?
I explained you the why and you still don't understand or don't want to accept it.
You simply want the game to do exactly what you put into it but it was stated a thousand times that randomness and probabilities decide if the output equals the input.
Neither does a rating of 81 mean that the pitcher will only give up homeruns (compared to a certain scale) in 81% of the time, nor does a 99 control rating mean that a pitch will always come into a certain location even when you time it perfectly and spot it well. That has never been the way games were designed. The answer why is on the page before. See my 7 or 8 points (and there are even more that have to be taken into consideration).

[THESHAMISASHAME]

Re: Destined to lose?

To be honest I don't know of any sports game (team games) which doesn't somehow produce this "scripted feeling" or however you wanna call it. Key is mainly how far you let the feeling come to yourself.
There is so much randomness and craziness in any sport in reality that the only chance the programmers have to get it into games is to play around with probabilities and chances. And because those probabilities are what they are (probabilities) they probably will take place or won't take place. And because of those probabilities being probabilities they probably will take place too rarely or too often, always depending on the opinion of the certain player. Because of those probabilities it sometimes may seem to be a forced outcome.
And again, this is out there in every sports game that I know and I know many of them. So if it would be easy to implement then all programmers would be idiots. I know that you aren't saying that but I wanted to state this conclusion nonetheless.
The programmers have to take into account many different things regarding players:
1) Nearly all players want as much realism as possible.
2) Not all players play the game as much as others do.
3) There may be some players that play the occasional game 2-3 times per week and they want reality.
4) There may be some players that play 2-3 games per day and want reality.
5) There are different skill levels involved.
6) Some guys will play poorly and so the game code will have to "help" them to get a little bit of realism because otherwise their poor play won't allow any realism.
7) Some guys will play very good and so the game will have to "force" them into certain situations because otherwise they won't see any randomness at all.
8) There may be guys which have a certain skill level and mastered some aspects of the game but are unaware that their slider set doesn't fit their skill level. Because of that the game will have to "force" them into situations, too.

I think there are flaws that have to be addressed. Maybe then the game wouldn't look so scripted for some guys.

But as I said it all comes down to the player in the end. If you take it too serious you will suffer. In the end it's only a game. I don't think that there are any chances that there will something like a perfect copy of reality in a sports game in the foreseeable future.

I really wanna thank you for taking the time to explain it this way instead of just being condescending and uncaring and I do understand what you mean as I see alot of what you speak in the EA NHL series but with NHL even with the tilted ice factor you still have a real chance to effect the outcome but with The Show it seems a bit less forgiving or giving whatever the case may be .
So from what your saying SCEA can only do so much to make it seem normal ? See Im not saying the outcome but how it looks or unfolds comes off as scripted at important times.

See most of the game plays great when I strikeout or hit a HR is feels legit like I did it and pitching too , very responsive with my skill level and sliders BUT then at key moments a total disconnect happens and I would like that remove whether it favors me or the cpu ....
Thanks again

[wudl83]

Re: Destined to lose?

I really wanna thank you for taking the time to explain it this way instead of just being condescending and uncaring and I do understand what you mean as I see alot of what you speak in the EA NHL series but with NHL even with the tilted ice factor you still have a real chance to effect the outcome but with The Show it seems a bit less forgiving or giving whatever the case may be .

No prolbem.
Yeah as I said, it is in nearly every sports game out there. I know it from NBA 2k, FIFA and other sports titles, too. I do not own the newest NHL version so I can't talk about it.

So from what your saying SCEA can only do so much to make it seem normal ? See Im not saying the outcome but how it looks or unfolds comes off as scripted at important times.

Oh nonono....I didn't want to say that SCEA can't do much more. As I stated in a previous post (only an hour ago or so) there are flaws that have to be addressed. I think it would help a little bit for some people to get rid of the feeling.
The problem with the term important times is: what is an important time, when is an important, what does determine if a time is important or not?
Questions like these aren't meant as a joke, they have to be followed very closely.

See most of the game plays great when I strikeout or hit a HR is feels legit like I did it and pitching too , very responsive with my skill level and sliders BUT then at key moments a total disconnect happens and I would like that remove whether it favors me or the cpu ....
Thanks again

I do not know how you feel, but have you seen those strange happenings in situations, that didn't matter too much, too?
I bet you have, but I think because of those situations being not so important to you, you may have not realized it happening. Know what I mean?
I know this from myself and I think that nearly everyone does so.

In the end we have to understand that it's really difficult to copy human beings. Making a baseball simulation is basically nothing else. You have to copy the habits, actions, and so on of real players and code a game in a way that it reflects their habits, actions, and so on as good as possible. But you have to take into account, that it is not only a simulation where those copies of real humans are acting for themselves. Those copies again are controlled by other human beings.

Really difficult, as I said. Maybe SCEA has overdone it in some regards for some people.

I also do not know why there are so hard fronts of guys who rout against it and guys who defend it. Maybe it really comes down to how far you let the game come to yourself and how far you let it influence your feelings.

[nomo17k]

Re: Destined to lose?

...

I also do not know why there are so hard fronts of guys who rout against it and guys who defend it. Maybe it really comes down to how far you let the game come to yourself and how far you let it influence your feelings.

I don't know if you are including myself to the side who "defend it", but I'm not really being hard or emotional about the whole thing. I'm neither defending the game nor speaking on behalf of SCEA. I don't really have any emotional attachment to the game itself. I test some parts of this game a lot for the sake of testing, just because I like simulation baseball game, so when I notice something weird I take notes and hope people at SCEA could use it to improve the game somehow. That's really it personally.

I'm jaded enough to know that in the end people only believe in what they want to believe in, even if the facts show otherwise. That's just human nature. I've also taught students math/physics at college level, and the concepts are really difficult that the vast majority of students really don't understand them at heart. Understanding hard subjects requires a lot of effort that most people wouldn't care putting into, even if they are capable to do so. That's been my experience.

I'm only frustrated by the people on "the other side" because their so-called evidences only misguide even the most legit discussions about real issues into a stupid and needless pissing match like the ones happening in this thread. They really are pointless. There's no substantial feedback that programmers/designers can use to improve the game.

Sounds weird, but that's why I serious hope this thread stays open for those who want to believe the game really fabricates and forces situations, along with new Cavicchi-type who thinks the game isn't realistic by looking at the parts of the game that are likely intentionally made unrealistic to cater to gamers who aren't good enough at the game to play it realistically. Everyone needs their niches in society. Just please do not come to other threads when others are discussing real issues, diluting the discussion by crap like conspiracy theories and accusing the game of doing something it really doesn't.

Shutting down a thread like this quickly has been typical OS in the past, but closing threads and banning people really don't solve repeated issues like this. Probably about half the posters here are previously banned users anyways, and some of them comeback fine.

[wudl83]

Re: Destined to lose?

I don't know if you are including myself to the side who "defend it", but I'm not really being hard or emotional about the whole thing. I'm neither defending the game nor speaking on behalf of SCEA.

The sentence you quoted wasn't intended to be meant literally. I am from Germany and sometimes have a hard time finding the right words since German is sometimes really different in chosing the phrases compared to English.

[nomo17k]

Re: Destined to lose?

The sentence you quoted wasn't intended to be meant literally. I am from Germany and sometimes have a hard time finding the right words since German is sometimes really different in chosing the phrases compared to English.

Oh English is my second language as well...haha. I miss currywurst that I had when I visited Berlin by the way, hahaha...

[Cavicchi]

Re: Destined to lose?

You really have no clue what you are talking about, haven't you?
I explained you the why and you still don't understand or don't want to accept it.
You simply want the game to do exactly what you put into it but it was stated a thousand times that randomness and probabilities decide if the output equals the input.
Neither does a rating of 81 mean that the pitcher will only give up homeruns (compared to a certain scale) in 81% of the time, nor does a 99 control rating mean that a pitch will always come into a certain location even when you time it perfectly and spot it well. That has never been the way games were designed. The answer why is on the page before. See my 7 or 8 points (and there are even more that have to be taken into consideration).

You are correct in that I don't understand you.

[Cavicchi]

Re: Destined to lose?

Oh English is my second language as well...haha. I miss currywurst that I had when I visited Berlin by the way, hahaha...

"That's why I personally am NOT denying that, at times, there's some "scripted" feeling on how things happen. I want that feeling to go away."

So what were you trying to say?

[Knight165]

Re: Destined to lose?

"That's why I personally am NOT denying that, at times, there's some "scripted" feeling on how things happen. I want that feeling to go away."

So what were you trying to say?

The only way that's going away is on your end.....when you finally understand that things are in no way pre-determined based on score...how many hits....who is on...what color uniform the team is wearing.....sunny day.....cold with long sleeves etc, etc....

M.K.
Knight165

[chrishthomas]

Re: Destined to lose?

...what color uniform the team is wearing.....

Oh no, I have to disagree here. Don't you remember that episode from Season 2 of What's Happening when Dwayne practically struck it rich using his football betting system based on which team had the "prettier helmets".

It's all about the uniforms; user skill, probability, dice rolls, comeback code...none of that really matters.

Now, we can close the thread.