Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

[nomo17k]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

Just wanted to mention those pitch control/consistency tweaks make a huge difference for HUM vs CPU as well. I've drawn 4 walks off Gerritt Cole in 3 innings when before I've been lucky to get 1 against him.

Might be too much since he's never walked more than 3 guys in a game. One start means nothing in this kind of testing of course, though.

Is this observation from QC games? For those who are naturally patient, I have been reading that drawing walks is even easier in QC games, which is not surprising. I haven't used QC yet, but I can imagine myself being like that. I take pride in being one of the most prolific walkers in online games last year, haha...

In fact, I don't really like to lower Pitcher Consistency/Control too much, if I don't have to. I don't like the way I might be depriving the best control pitchers of their ability to pin-point their pitches. When I lower these sliders, I am not entirely sure how much I am affecting the top-tier control guys, in order for me to generate the amount of walks I want to see in the league average.

Ideally, I only want the effects to be stronger on mid- to low-tier control guys and keep the command of the best guys in tact.

Pitchers with great control/command, like Greg Maddux and Koji Uehara, walk like one batter per 9 innings or so. I don't think I have really achieved that when I lower the pitch command related sliders.

But part of the reason why I cannot control the "walk" aspect of the game just by sliders may be that preventing walks may rely just as much on pitching strategy as on the natural ability of pitchers to locate pitches.

Guys like Maddux and Uehara obviously spot their pitches consistently than most other pitchers, but if you look closely they do miss the target set by the catcher quite often as well. No pitcher can truly locate pitch to a desired spot all the time, so I suspect a large part of their ability to prevent walks comes from their pitching approach, not just how they can consistently lay one in the strike zone...

And I don't think we can affect such strategy aspects with sliders we have right now.

[bcruise]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

Is this observation from QC games? For those who are naturally patient, I have been reading that drawing walks is even easier in QC games, which is not surprising. I haven't used QC yet, but I can imagine myself being like that. I take pride in being one of the most prolific walkers in online games last year, haha...

Nope, that was every pitch, QC off. I'm pretty patient too, so long as the CPU isn't just pumping strikes I can walk 2-3 times a game, or more if things snowball and it can't find the zone (the confidence slope I mentioned). I had one game vs Wainwright with default sliders where he walked me 7 times through 5 innings on HOF.

I'm the type that fist-pumps when I draw a walk, as most people would do if they hit a HR.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

First-timer to this thread. Are these meant to be used in HUM v. CPU games as well? And are the slider values meant to be adjusted from All Star default?

[nomo17k]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

Nope, that was every pitch, QC off. I'm pretty patient too, so long as the CPU isn't just pumping strikes I can walk 2-3 times a game, or more if things snowball and it can't find the zone (the confidence slope I mentioned). I had one game vs Wainwright with default sliders where he walked me 7 times through 5 innings on HOF.

I'm the type that fist-pumps when I draw a walk, as most people would do if they hit a HR.

I know... with what has been going on at Wrigley for over 100 years, you need something to celebrate, even if it's just a base on balls...

[nomo17k]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

First-timer to this thread. Are these meant to be used in HUM v. CPU games as well? And are the slider values meant to be adjusted from All Star default?

I don't think I *mean* anything, but rather I am just sharing information that could be used in any ways people find useful.

My intention is that I first want CPUs to play realistically against each other, partly because I enjoy watching them play against each other, and also because it forms the base of whatever changes that I want to make to make my own playing realistic.

For example, if my playing tendency is exactly the same as CPU, then this CPU slider set is probably a good set for my own playing as well. If I deviate a bit from CPU's tendency, then I can adjust HUM sliders. Do I need a bigger PCI? I change HUM Contact. Am I too accurate in locating pitches? I vary HUM Pitcher Consistency/Control sliders. So in view of HUM usage, I'm just trying to come up with a "reference" set from which I vary the HUM side to account for my own tendencies.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

I don't think I *mean* anything, but rather I am just sharing information that could be used in any ways people find useful.

My intention is that I first want CPUs to play realistically against each other, partly because I enjoy watching them play against each other, and also because it forms the base of whatever changes that I want to make to make my own playing realistic.

For example, if my playing tendency is exactly the same as CPU, then this CPU slider set is probably a good set for my own playing as well. If I deviate a bit from CPU's tendency, then I can adjust HUM sliders. Do I need a bigger PCI? I change HUM Contact. Am I too accurate in locating pitches? I vary HUM Pitcher Consistency/Control sliders. So in view of HUM usage, I'm just trying to come up with a "reference" set from which I vary the HUM side to account for my own tendencies.

Fair enough, and thanks!

[bcruise]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

I know... with what has been going on at Wrigley for over 100 years, you need something to celebrate, even if it's just a base on balls...

Low blow. Laser-guided 100% accuracy, but low.

BTW, I went back to default for a game and played the same matchup. Cole's line this time: 8 IP, 0 ER, 4 H, 0 BB, 11 K. You could argue that that's a much more realistic line for facing the Cubs.

[nonoirie]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

When Pitcher Control is decreased, does pitchers throw more "meatballs" along with pitches outside the zone?

[nomo17k]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

When Pitcher Control is decreased, does pitchers throw more "meatballs" along with pitches outside the zone?

In short, I think it does increase both meatballs and pitches outside the zone.

From what I have gathered from things like slider descriptions and Brian's old posts and such, the way I currently guess and understand the Pitcher Control/Consistency sliders goes like this.

First of all, you should look at the attached pitch location chart when Lester was throwing all his pitches aiming down the middle. You are looking from the view of catcher. You can see the distribution of pitches roughly forms a slanted oval. Since Lester is a lefty with a three-quarter delivery, when he releases his pitch a bit early, it tends to go upper right corner, and when he releases a bit late, it tends to go toward lower left corner.

Now, it's clearer to draw this than explain in words, so in the bottom figure I reproduced a kind of pitch location chart but for the case the pitcher was aiming outside low on the black, i.e., the center of the ovals.

There are three ovals for three different Pitcher Control settings: blue for high, green for default, red for low slider value for Pitcher Control. The size of oval roughly indicates how much pitch location can vary, if a pitcher actually tries to locate a pitch at the center of oval. We notice that the about half of the oval is in the strike zone in each case, despite the widely different sizes.

Looking at the figure, we see that by lowering Pitcher Control the oval gets so large that a significant portion of it lies close to the deepest part of the strike zone. This is probably why lowering Pitcher Control increases the number of meatballs. (The slider description recommends lowering Contact when Pitcher Control is lowered, likely because there will be too many meatballs caused this way.)

We also see that changing the Pitcher Control oval does not change the natural strike % of pitchers all that much (for pitches on the black anyways), because about the same proportion of area within an oval stays in and outside the strike zone, regardless of the oval size. This is probably why Pitcher Control does not have as large an effect on the amount of walks induced by its adjustment.

I also drew a bunch of yellow heart marks. Those are examples of pitch locations when the pitcher totally misses his spot, far from the intended spot (outside low). While the vast majority of pitches go within the oval, some miss wide like this and result in things like wild pitches and hit-by-pitches, etc. How often a pitcher misses wide this way is controlled by the Pitcher Consistency slider. Since errant pitches like this are more likely to miss far off the strike zone, this is likely why Pitcher Consistency is the most effective slider for increasing the number of walks.

[BrianU]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

First-timer to this thread. Are these meant to be used in HUM v. CPU games as well? And are the slider values meant to be adjusted from All Star default?

Like Nomo said this work makes a good base to make your own set. Some of the sliders would work better for Human vs CPU than others, like the error sliders, CPU pitching, stamina/hook..

A lot of it depends on your own playing style and control methods. How 'realistically' do you pitch and the decisions you make in hitting. I personally track the same metrics of my own play as I do of the CPU's play using these spreadsheets I created: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ful-links.html

Comparing your actions to the MLB averages lets you know whether you throw 'too many' balls/strikes, swing too much, chase too much, take pitches too much etc.. I try to play as true to life as possible. I also use classic pitching/timing hitting/auto fielding&baserunning and I feel this setup plays best with nomo's findings.

[ralphieboy11]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

In short, I think it does increase both meatballs and pitches outside the zone.

From what I have gathered from things like slider descriptions and Brian's old posts and such, the way I currently guess and understand the Pitcher Control/Consistency sliders goes like this.

First of all, you should look at the attached pitch location chart when Lester was throwing all his pitches aiming down the middle. You are looking from the view of catcher. You can see the distribution of pitches roughly forms a slanted oval. Since Lester is a lefty with a three-quarter delivery, when he releases his pitch a bit early, it tends to go upper right corner, and when he releases a bit late, it tends to go toward lower left corner.

Now, it's clearer to draw this than explain in words, so in the bottom figure I reproduced a kind of pitch location chart but for the case the pitcher was aiming outside low on the black, i.e., the center of the ovals.

There are three ovals for three different Pitcher Control settings: blue for high, green for default, red for low slider value for Pitcher Control. The size of oval roughly indicates how much pitch location can vary, if a pitcher actually tries to locate a pitch at the center of oval. We notice that the about half of the oval is in the strike zone in each case, despite the widely different sizes.

Looking at the figure, we see that by lowering Pitcher Control the oval gets so large that a significant portion of it lies close to the deepest part of the strike zone. This is probably why lowering Pitcher Control increases the number of meatballs. (The slider description recommends lowering Contact when Pitcher Control is lowered, likely because there will be too many meatballs caused this way.)

We also see that changing the Pitcher Control oval does not change the natural strike % of pitchers all that much (for pitches on the black anyways), because about the same proportion of area within an oval stays in and outside the strike zone, regardless of the oval size. This is probably why Pitcher Control does not have as large an effect on the amount of walks induced by its adjustment.

I also drew a bunch of yellow heart marks. Those are examples of pitch locations when the pitcher totally misses his spot, far from the intended spot (outside low). While the vast majority of pitches go within the oval, some miss wide like this and result in things like wild pitches and hit-by-pitches, etc. How often a pitcher misses wide this way is controlled by the Pitcher Consistency slider. Since errant pitches like this are more likely to miss far off the strike zone, this is likely why Pitcher Consistency is the most effective slider for increasing the number of walks.

This was very informative.

It was interesting to me that you mentioned the three-quarter delivery from Lester. Arm angle definitely has a way in determining where a pitcher misses his pitches.

I have noticed through the years sidearm cpu pitchers perform rather poorly compared to their more normal counterparts. I haven't documented it, but I'm almost certain a pitcher like Brad Ziegler or Pat Neshek is a little wilder than their ratings would indicate.

This may have to do with their pitch repertoire combined with arm angle. Mostly I've witnessed a lot of balls ending up in the dirt.

These pitchers can be effective from time to time, but usually if I'm just playing MoM and trying to build a team, I avoid them.

[nomo17k]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

This was very informative.

It was interesting to me that you mentioned the three-quarter delivery from Lester. Arm angle definitely has a way in determining where a pitcher misses his pitches.

I have noticed through the years sidearm cpu pitchers perform rather poorly compared to their more normal counterparts. I haven't documented it, but I'm almost certain a pitcher like Brad Ziegler or Pat Neshek is a little wilder than their ratings would indicate.

This may have to do with their pitch repertoire combined with arm angle. Mostly I've witnessed a lot of balls ending up in the dirt.

These pitchers can be effective from time to time, but usually if I'm just playing MoM and trying to build a team, I avoid them.

I actually don't believe that sidearm guys are naturally handicapped in the command department in the game, but their pitch trajectory tends to be different from those with normal deliveries (i.e., pitch tends to break more laterally than vertically).

I think it is true that sidearm guys tend to be on the wilder side in real life, partly because of the unnatural ways that they deliver, but also because they can get away with it. The biggest advantage that these guys have is the deception due to their delivery and the unfamiliarity of hitters to the way their pitches break, so I think they can remain successful even when they cannot locate pitches that well. If you look at their stats, they tend to walk a lot (high BB/9) but less hittable (low H/9), so the overall WHIP remains respectable.

[kcsam]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

Hey Nomo. Just wanted to say I really like the work you're doing here. Very informative. I also like that your mission here is to create the most sim like environment for the game. That being said, are you still using the sliders you reported a few pages back.

And lastly, have you heard any rumors as to when the first patch will drop? I'm new to the game, so I don't know if there's a usual date it drops each year. Thanks.

[nomo17k]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

Hey Nomo. Just wanted to say I really like the work you're doing here. Very informative. I also like that your mission here is to create the most sim like environment for the game. That being said, are you still using the sliders you reported a few pages back.

It's really not so noble as a mission, but since I like walks, I usually try to adjust sliders so that the game produces a realistic amount of walks at least. The game by default is usually tuned to produce less walks compared to what we expect from the MLB average. The game actually is tuned very well out of the box, so most slider adjustments are of cosmetic nature, in my opinion.

I'm still testing with the same slider labeled 4/11.

This is like the 4th year I am doing this, but I think something drastically changed after MLB 12, and I have not been really able to produce a realistic amount of walks in the game. Before and on MLB 12, all I really needed was to lower Pitcher Consistency, but now I am lowering Pitcher Control and Consistency quite a bit now, but I am not seeing the amount of walks coming up as much as I used to see.

So generating walks has been the most frustrating part, but most other sliders are getting closer to where I would like them to be, I think. I just want to bring up the offense a bit more, and things should be pretty much set.

And lastly, have you heard any rumors as to when the first patch will drop? I'm new to the game, so I don't know if there's a usual date it drops each year. Thanks.

I think there usually is at least one patch. The first patch probably drops within a few weeks to month of the release, I believe.

[BrianU]

Re: Stats-Based CPU Sliders [MLB 14 Version]

I like your approach to pitching sliders and not nerfing control into the ground. My only area of contention is the fielding and base running sliders. I know you are still in the stage of sticking to defaults and using defaults as a control to see what needs to be adjusted and I haven't gotten too much playing time in yet, but from my experience the base running speed results in some really funky plays. Non super fast guys beating out grounders that look relatively routine, and choppers too. I know you do not observe every game but curious if you have seen any instances of this. I just have a feeling if we had a statistic stating how many infield grounders made up total hits, we would see a an over-representation from whatever that number is in real life. We are able to track strike ratios on the various counts very closely but hits being only broken down by GB/LD/FB on contact leaves more to be desired in shaping the offensive side of the game.

I appreciate greatly the statistically accurate approach which works well with some sliders, both the speed and reaction sliders I feel need to be looked at from an eye test approach as well. Something I am not the greatest at so I use others sound reasoning. Personally I can see a need to lower fielder reaction to 4, baserunning speed to 3 or 4, arm strength to 3 or lower, and fielder speed a bit. The challenge is finding a balance to reproduce accurate 2B/3B numbers in combination with passing the eye test of the gameplay.

I don't mean to go on a tangent, just curious if you plan to touch those group of sliders at all?

If you don't mind can I ask what made you raise solid hits to 7? I had thought that slider mainly impacted LD% but those numbers looked good on the default testing.

I know you addressed the BB being low still and how you are working on that, but how about strikeouts? Would lowering timing a notch be enough or would that have other unintended effects you wish to avoid?

I always look forward to see what changes you make to balancing things and your approach. Thanks for another year of unparalleled work!