Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

[K_GUN]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

i concur

[sdrotar]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
We can conclude then, then good gameplay is directly proportional to how much control you take away from the user. The ideal game is one that the user simply watches; good gameplay is not allowing the user to play the game at all, because AI can always be programmed to behave more realistically than the user.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Ohhhkaaay...
Apparently, unlike FatPitcher, I think there's a happy medium to be had, and I think there are plenty of gamers looking for it.

The bottom line - options are important!
When users have maximum control over their gaming experience, by and large - they're pleased.
When they feel forced into a style of gaming that doesn't mesh with their interests - the game usually gets returned to the store.

Hopefully, one day, developers will start recognizing this instead on mindlessly belittling others who don't happen to prefer their particular style of play. It's not very conducive to customer retention...

While I enjoyed and own WSB, it's rather limited inasmuch as what could be modified by the user.
For example, Torii Hunter's fielding percentage was .992 in 2002. That's eight errors in a thousand chances. Therefore, if I play well, I should have a decent chance of doing that - but with the camera angles provided in WSB, I guarantee you that won't happen for me - even though it may with some others.
This further illustrates the importance of options.
I'm not "afraid" of fielding, as FatPitcher has suggested - but if I'm going to be forced to field, then the developers best make more camera angles available and at least give me the opportunity to see the game played with a modicum of statistical realism.
Of course, all this could be alleviated with a simple option to let the CPU control Hunter as he chases down the "Texas Leaguers"...

High Heat did exactly that - they gave the user the choice, and therefore gave the user the gaming experience they wanted instead of forcing gamers into a "one-size-fits-all" style of play.
That's why, despite comparatively horrendous graphics and sound, atrocious presentation, and a marketing machine that pales in comparison to EA, Sega and even Acclaim, High Heat Baseball is still being published.

That's why it has so many ardent supporters. It plays the game of baseball that the user wants it to - not the one the developer(s) personally prefers.

It's baffling to me why WSB, or any other game doesn't yet offer the same features, because if they did - if they simply allowed the user to let the CPU use its already-coded AI routines in the game for the gamer's benefit - they'd very likely scoop up most, if not all, of the High Heat supporters, and make them their own, thus increasing their bottom line - unit sales.

Instead, we see some game developers producing the same kind of pithy drivel in their games that FatPitcher has in his post. Insisting that one way - your way - is best for everyone is the absolute height of arrogance.

In the game of baseball, there are as many different approaches to the game as there have been players.
It's not too much to ask that baseball games' developers at least consider other approaches than that of their own.

[sdrotar]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
We can conclude then, then good gameplay is directly proportional to how much control you take away from the user. The ideal game is one that the user simply watches; good gameplay is not allowing the user to play the game at all, because AI can always be programmed to behave more realistically than the user.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Ohhhkaaay...
Apparently, unlike FatPitcher, I think there's a happy medium to be had, and I think there are plenty of gamers looking for it.

The bottom line - options are important!
When users have maximum control over their gaming experience, by and large - they're pleased.
When they feel forced into a style of gaming that doesn't mesh with their interests - the game usually gets returned to the store.

Hopefully, one day, developers will start recognizing this instead on mindlessly belittling others who don't happen to prefer their particular style of play. It's not very conducive to customer retention...

While I enjoyed and own WSB, it's rather limited inasmuch as what could be modified by the user.
For example, Torii Hunter's fielding percentage was .992 in 2002. That's eight errors in a thousand chances. Therefore, if I play well, I should have a decent chance of doing that - but with the camera angles provided in WSB, I guarantee you that won't happen for me - even though it may with some others.
This further illustrates the importance of options.
I'm not "afraid" of fielding, as FatPitcher has suggested - but if I'm going to be forced to field, then the developers best make more camera angles available and at least give me the opportunity to see the game played with a modicum of statistical realism.
Of course, all this could be alleviated with a simple option to let the CPU control Hunter as he chases down the "Texas Leaguers"...

High Heat did exactly that - they gave the user the choice, and therefore gave the user the gaming experience they wanted instead of forcing gamers into a "one-size-fits-all" style of play.
That's why, despite comparatively horrendous graphics and sound, atrocious presentation, and a marketing machine that pales in comparison to EA, Sega and even Acclaim, High Heat Baseball is still being published.

That's why it has so many ardent supporters. It plays the game of baseball that the user wants it to - not the one the developer(s) personally prefers.

It's baffling to me why WSB, or any other game doesn't yet offer the same features, because if they did - if they simply allowed the user to let the CPU use its already-coded AI routines in the game for the gamer's benefit - they'd very likely scoop up most, if not all, of the High Heat supporters, and make them their own, thus increasing their bottom line - unit sales.

Instead, we see some game developers producing the same kind of pithy drivel in their games that FatPitcher has in his post. Insisting that one way - your way - is best for everyone is the absolute height of arrogance.

In the game of baseball, there are as many different approaches to the game as there have been players.
It's not too much to ask that baseball games' developers at least consider other approaches than that of their own.

[FatPitcher]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here.

I'm talking about the mysterious word "gameplay." I think that word was invented by long ago by game reviewers who weren't smart enough to use real words to describe what aspects of the game they were talking about.

Anyway, the person I was responding to thinks that gameplay is watching the AI do its thing. That's fine, for a strategy game. If you want to play baseball as a strategy game, good for you. What I didn't get is why he thought that that kind of gameplay was obviously superior to WSB's. WSB is not a strategy game. It's like saying chess is superior to Quake. It doesn't compute.

WSB's gameplay is about playing the game and controlling the players, not about telling them what to do and letting the AI do it for you. So as far as strategy "gameplay" goes, High Heat is better. It's a baseball simulator first and a video game second. WSB is a video game first and a baseball simulator second. We've made it a pretty good baseball simulator, but our goal is not to be able to predict the 2003 season with great accuracy, it's to make a game that lots of people enjoy playing. Gamers often enjoy playing things when they have direct control and spend most of the time doing something instead of watching (Final Fantasy X being one of the gruesome exceptions).

And now, back to what you were talking about. Yes, it's good to have options. We had a decent amount of options last year and lots more this year. However, since the game is designed to be played, the options center around making playing the game more enjoyable, customizable, and yes, even realistic. Options that encourage people not to experience the best part of the game (i.e. actually playing it) aren't as valuable; a scattershot design of including every conceivable option and feature tends to result in features/aspects of the game that aren't cohesive or fun. In other words, if you're going to do something, do it right and make sure it fits into the game you're making. For example, what good would it have done to have "Auto Baserunning" in WSB last year? Not a lot. To have a chance at grabbing High Heat fans, it's not enough just to put in more options; those options have to be just as valuable as they are in High Heat. Putting in worthless options wastes everyone's time.

I think we generally agree on what The Perfect Baseball Game should be like, but I don't agree that I or anyone working on WSB is stupid or arrogant because we're not trying to get there in a 7-month development cycle. WSB concentrates on the fun/control/skill/graphics part of the game, and High Heat concentrates on the stats/AI/strategy part. If you're going to trash one game for not doing something as well as the other or not having the same features, you can easily do that both ways.

Anyway, the point I'd like to make here is that saying one is better is an opinion. Stating your opinion as fact is arrogance. If I said that High Heat isn't fun for me, that's my opinion. If I said that you all are stupid if you don't agree with me, then I'd be arrogant, as accused. As it stands, Padgoi seems to be the only one who's said anything like that, so maybe you should just SIMMA DAN NA!

One more thing...just because I don't like something doesn't mean I don't understand what makes it appealing to others. (By the way, designing games to cater exclusively to one's personal tastes is a big no-no, especially with sports games. We aim to please everyone! Of course, Madden's been trying for 10 years and people are still unhappy with it-- it's not as simple as it sounds.).

[FatPitcher]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here.

I'm talking about the mysterious word "gameplay." I think that word was invented by long ago by game reviewers who weren't smart enough to use real words to describe what aspects of the game they were talking about.

Anyway, the person I was responding to thinks that gameplay is watching the AI do its thing. That's fine, for a strategy game. If you want to play baseball as a strategy game, good for you. What I didn't get is why he thought that that kind of gameplay was obviously superior to WSB's. WSB is not a strategy game. It's like saying chess is superior to Quake. It doesn't compute.

WSB's gameplay is about playing the game and controlling the players, not about telling them what to do and letting the AI do it for you. So as far as strategy "gameplay" goes, High Heat is better. It's a baseball simulator first and a video game second. WSB is a video game first and a baseball simulator second. We've made it a pretty good baseball simulator, but our goal is not to be able to predict the 2003 season with great accuracy, it's to make a game that lots of people enjoy playing. Gamers often enjoy playing things when they have direct control and spend most of the time doing something instead of watching (Final Fantasy X being one of the gruesome exceptions).

And now, back to what you were talking about. Yes, it's good to have options. We had a decent amount of options last year and lots more this year. However, since the game is designed to be played, the options center around making playing the game more enjoyable, customizable, and yes, even realistic. Options that encourage people not to experience the best part of the game (i.e. actually playing it) aren't as valuable; a scattershot design of including every conceivable option and feature tends to result in features/aspects of the game that aren't cohesive or fun. In other words, if you're going to do something, do it right and make sure it fits into the game you're making. For example, what good would it have done to have "Auto Baserunning" in WSB last year? Not a lot. To have a chance at grabbing High Heat fans, it's not enough just to put in more options; those options have to be just as valuable as they are in High Heat. Putting in worthless options wastes everyone's time.

I think we generally agree on what The Perfect Baseball Game should be like, but I don't agree that I or anyone working on WSB is stupid or arrogant because we're not trying to get there in a 7-month development cycle. WSB concentrates on the fun/control/skill/graphics part of the game, and High Heat concentrates on the stats/AI/strategy part. If you're going to trash one game for not doing something as well as the other or not having the same features, you can easily do that both ways.

Anyway, the point I'd like to make here is that saying one is better is an opinion. Stating your opinion as fact is arrogance. If I said that High Heat isn't fun for me, that's my opinion. If I said that you all are stupid if you don't agree with me, then I'd be arrogant, as accused. As it stands, Padgoi seems to be the only one who's said anything like that, so maybe you should just SIMMA DAN NA!

One more thing...just because I don't like something doesn't mean I don't understand what makes it appealing to others. (By the way, designing games to cater exclusively to one's personal tastes is a big no-no, especially with sports games. We aim to please everyone! Of course, Madden's been trying for 10 years and people are still unhappy with it-- it's not as simple as it sounds.).

[kaydigi]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"But since MVP is a first year effort I think we can dismiss it from the competion. "

no you can't technically GTA 3 was a first year effort because they had never done one on the PS2 before with that game engine so you can't throw it out until its over that is like counting the Angels out of the World Series last year just because they were not good the year before

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I wont get EA's MVP baseball either. A lot of first year sports titles are weak.

NBA / NFL 2k
ASB 99 (N64)
WSB ( Dreamcast version)

I rather let EA release it and get their feet wet. I'll take a look at the revews and check it out next year. There is simply too much that can go wrong, when I can be playing a game that has a solid foundation like (ASB 2004/ High Heat 2004).
I'm also very weary when EA says "we are working to put that feature in next year" because of EA Canada's horrendous track record with the NBA Live series. I've been playing Live since '95 all the way to 2003. Over the last 8 years I've only had a injured player twice. "EA always says next year we will teak the injury code "

So i'll see if they got rid of the cannons noise, red laser trails and repetitive can of corn lines.

[kaydigi]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"But since MVP is a first year effort I think we can dismiss it from the competion. "

no you can't technically GTA 3 was a first year effort because they had never done one on the PS2 before with that game engine so you can't throw it out until its over that is like counting the Angels out of the World Series last year just because they were not good the year before

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I wont get EA's MVP baseball either. A lot of first year sports titles are weak.

NBA / NFL 2k
ASB 99 (N64)
WSB ( Dreamcast version)

I rather let EA release it and get their feet wet. I'll take a look at the revews and check it out next year. There is simply too much that can go wrong, when I can be playing a game that has a solid foundation like (ASB 2004/ High Heat 2004).
I'm also very weary when EA says "we are working to put that feature in next year" because of EA Canada's horrendous track record with the NBA Live series. I've been playing Live since '95 all the way to 2003. Over the last 8 years I've only had a injured player twice. "EA always says next year we will teak the injury code "

So i'll see if they got rid of the cannons noise, red laser trails and repetitive can of corn lines.

[Diablo25]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

Nice points FatPitcher.

In High Heats defense (I know, shocker me defending HH) - say what you want about HH -poor graphics, sound and presentation - it has the best gameplay (IMO). Its the only reason the game has a following. All of the games out do most of the absolutes right but HH does a lot of the little things right. It just does the best job. Keep in mind, I'm not speaking of this year's crop of games. I'll give them all a shot at the title and whoever wins will get my money. My contenders this year are World Series Baseball (looks like they are arriving at the next level) and High Heat. My sleepers are MVP (I'm not holding my breathe) and Inside Pitch (only because online play has been rumored). Just my 2 cents.

[Diablo25]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

Nice points FatPitcher.

In High Heats defense (I know, shocker me defending HH) - say what you want about HH -poor graphics, sound and presentation - it has the best gameplay (IMO). Its the only reason the game has a following. All of the games out do most of the absolutes right but HH does a lot of the little things right. It just does the best job. Keep in mind, I'm not speaking of this year's crop of games. I'll give them all a shot at the title and whoever wins will get my money. My contenders this year are World Series Baseball (looks like they are arriving at the next level) and High Heat. My sleepers are MVP (I'm not holding my breathe) and Inside Pitch (only because online play has been rumored). Just my 2 cents.

[Skyboxer]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

I think the word gameplay and results are being switched around. HH has great results in it's games.
Gameplay to me is how much fun the user has playing the game. (Hitting, throwing, sounds, visuals)
So while HH might give good results, it does not give the me the total "fun" package..so the gameplay is lower for me.
Anyways that's my take on it...

[Skyboxer]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

I think the word gameplay and results are being switched around. HH has great results in it's games.
Gameplay to me is how much fun the user has playing the game. (Hitting, throwing, sounds, visuals)
So while HH might give good results, it does not give the me the total "fun" package..so the gameplay is lower for me.
Anyways that's my take on it...

[K_GUN]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

correct..just look at the word GAMEPLAY

how the game PLAYS

IMO...HH just seemed canned....i only played about 50 games last year but more often than not it was the same formula.
i score some runs early then i can't hit ANYTHING from 4-7 inning, then i score again...and the late runs were far too predictable.....nomar doubles, manny homers.....it just seemed too scripted.

[K_GUN]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

correct..just look at the word GAMEPLAY

how the game PLAYS

IMO...HH just seemed canned....i only played about 50 games last year but more often than not it was the same formula.
i score some runs early then i can't hit ANYTHING from 4-7 inning, then i score again...and the late runs were far too predictable.....nomar doubles, manny homers.....it just seemed too scripted.

[Padgoi]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

FatPitcher, number one, I did not mention you in my post, therefore, do not mention me! Secondly, I did not in any way suggest that certain gameplayers are "stupid" (as you put it) for stating an opinion that I disagree with. All I said is that the gameplay in WSB is not up to par with that of High Heat, and that is a fact. WSB concentrates on graphics and sound while High Heat concentrates on realism and gameplay. Do not put words in my mouth as you do to countless others. You seem to be the arrogant one in every post I have ever read from you. You always seem to think that your opinion is the correct one and everyone else is wrong and when someone disagrees with you, you jump on them. Listen, I DID NOT AT ALL say HH was better than WSB. All I said was that the gameplay aspect of HH was better and this seems to be an accurate statement as 90% of the people who have played both games would agree. So do not go calling me arrogant when you have absolutely no evidence to back your claim. To each his own. I simply prefer HH due to its superior gameplay.

[Padgoi]

Re: Xbox owners : WSB should be all you need.

FatPitcher, number one, I did not mention you in my post, therefore, do not mention me! Secondly, I did not in any way suggest that certain gameplayers are "stupid" (as you put it) for stating an opinion that I disagree with. All I said is that the gameplay in WSB is not up to par with that of High Heat, and that is a fact. WSB concentrates on graphics and sound while High Heat concentrates on realism and gameplay. Do not put words in my mouth as you do to countless others. You seem to be the arrogant one in every post I have ever read from you. You always seem to think that your opinion is the correct one and everyone else is wrong and when someone disagrees with you, you jump on them. Listen, I DID NOT AT ALL say HH was better than WSB. All I said was that the gameplay aspect of HH was better and this seems to be an accurate statement as 90% of the people who have played both games would agree. So do not go calling me arrogant when you have absolutely no evidence to back your claim. To each his own. I simply prefer HH due to its superior gameplay.