The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

[stealyerface]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Great point. Believe it or not, I still plug in the SEGA Genesis in the TV upstairs, and play a few games of World Series Baseball 1995. In my opinion, this game was way ahead of its time with regards to hitting. Not only did the game have fantastic collisions between players on the same team, but the hitting system was pretty ingenious. The player had a cursor that was shaped like a baseball bat. Long and skinny, and the thing was about the width of the bat and as long. Based on the hitter, was how big the "sweet spot" of the bat was, and also, how wide (up and down) the bat cursor thingy was. Guys like Tony Pena had a big sweet spot and therefore could control the direction, and whether or not you wanted to hit the ball on the ground or in the air. So, if the ball made contact towards the hands, the ball would get typically pulled. Off the end of the bat, it was an opposite field swing, or depending on how good the contact was, ended up a nubber to the second baseman. The idea was that the batter had to swing the bat based on the ratings of the player, but also could control a bit more than just the contact. As you upped the skill level, the bat cursor thingy shrank. So you ended up with a very small hitting zone, and even smaller sweet spot.

So, the idea was a good one, even 13 years ago, and it seems odd to me that with the ability to really hone in on the collision detection with regards to bat and ball, that a Cursor style hitting is not something that they at least tinker with.

SYF

[jfsolo]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

I find it kind of funny/ironic/contradictoray that people either want or don't mind a pitching system in which as a pitcher you have to pick the pitch type, pitch location, then choose how much effort you want to put in the pitch and then press another button to execute the pitch, but when it comes to hitting, they just want to press one button or execute one motion for a swing. Hitting a breaking ball is a lot harder than throwing it.

If you want a hitting system in which you just execute a swing motion and let abilities take over and control the rest, why not want a pitching system in which you just pick a pitch type and let abilities take care of the rest? You tell Maddux to throw a 0-1 fastball and he executes the pitch based on the computers programmed abilities.

You have the ability to throw a 3-0 curveball to the opposing teams pitcher if you want, but can't hit a flyball unless the game decides it should happen.

Truth be told, I was perfectly content with the High Heat pitching mechanic, where you chose the pitch type and the quadrant where you wanted to throw the ball, and ratings and a certain about of statistical randomization decided where the ball went.

Sometimes the pitcher you were controlling just didn't have it and you could walk 2 straight batters on eight pitches. A lot of users didn't like not having total control of their results, but it was O.K. by me. So a timing + ratings/ability based hitting mechanic is just what I'm looking for.

I prefer the outcome to be slanted(not totally) toward statistical probability with a moderate amount of User influence.

I can see where others might feel differently though.

[I_Love_Piazza]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Doesn't that influence factor get recreated more accurately by an MVP style analog system where you pull the stick in the direction that you want the ball to go? I think that makes more sense than zone, where you would have no influence over what kind of you are going to get, all you are doing is timing your swing and aiming your bat in a general location. Not to mention you are trying to determine where an 88 mph slider is going to END UP, not even where it is when you actually see it.

I think the idea of pulling up on the stick to influence a grounder/flyball before the pitch is thrown makes sense. I also liked the MVP system, but the physics of it wasn't implemented right, since you could hit so many homeruns if you pulled up on the analog stick. If players were always trying to get under the ball, even if they had a lot of power, they would have Pat Burrell stats, aka .250 or less average with quite a few homeruns. They would either hit flyballs, pop-ups, or homeruns/doubles. If they pulled down on the stick they would be much more likely to hit singles and gap doubles, but less likely to pop up or hit homeruns. I think that system was good, just not implemented perfectly. MVP 05 did a lot of things great, but it wasn't without flaws.

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Oh, you played MLB 2k8? Because if you have and already know that it's hitting system isn't spectacular can you start an Impressions Thread?

Thanks.

hmmm. If you played Madden 07 and perfected the running game but felt it was too simple. and the producer of the game described the system for Madden 08 but said that it would simpler with even less control....would it take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

If Brinkman said...listen no more timing...all you have to do is hit a button at any random point the pitch was coming to determine the hitting. It wouldnt take much to figure out that it sucks.

You arent the first person to give me this criticism. I have played 2K forever and baseball sims since Hardball on the Commodore 64. When a system is described to me I can imagine what its like...it doesnt take much. Sorry if I can figure things out better than others here....

ITS TIMING ONLY....what else do I need to know to realize that it is not sim.

Anyway...after the game comes out...and I say the same stuff...will you please publicly say "wow Mav you are smart dude....you knew it was going to be crappy before even playing it. I should shut up and listen to you more"

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

I see what you are saying, but controlling the effort/effectiveness of a pitch is about the same as controlling how "hard" you swing a bat. I don't think that's realistic. Pitchers vary their effectiveness, hitters do not vary how hard they swing a bat unless we are talking power/contact, which does not work for VG baseball simulations because you end up swinging for power with big guys and contact with little guys, so guys like Jose Reyes have almost no chance of hitting homeruns, whereas he gets at least 10 over the course of a season in real life.

As far as the new right stick motion to throw a pitch, I think it's a great idea and looks like a ton of fun. The only thing analogous in batting would be if you had to throw the right stick at 2 o clock or 10 o clock to hit inside/outside pitches. That would work for me. I just don't like the idea of having to time my step, time my swing, AND use a different stick to aim at where the pitch will END UP, not even where the pitch looks like it is at the moment. That's too much to ask. Zone hitting works when there are four zones. But I never got to the level in The Show last year where I could effectively hit with the nine zone interface. You only have half a second to decide anything in hitting unless you have the pitch speed down really low.

This is a horrible analogy and you are missing his point. Having to put in the motion of the pitch is similar to the swing stick it simulates the motion. However...you are also AIMING the pitch....in 2K8 there is no way to aim the swing. One system simulates throwing the other swingiing a bat. In the pitching system there are 2 components the timing and motion of the pitching mechanic and the aiming of pitch. In the hitting system there is ONLY the simulation of the swinging mechanic.

The point that Trev is making is that some say that simpler control with essentially less mechanics is good for hitting, but for pitching they want probably the most complicated mechanic ever created. Furthermore, it sounds like people are opposed to even having options.

I am not against having a simplistic hitting system for you guys who are a bit more novice, but I would also like a sim system as well. For some reason, the novice guys want ONLY a easy system. And when us hardcore guys move on to the Show you will wonder why your game doesnt sell and why 2K baseball wont make it to 2K10

[CMH]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

hmmm. If you played Madden 07 and perfected the running game but felt it was too simple. and the producer of the game described the system for Madden 08 but said that it would simpler with even less control....would it take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

If Brinkman said...listen no more timing...all you have to do is hit a button at any random point the pitch was coming to determine the hitting. It wouldnt take much to figure out that it sucks.

You arent the first person to give me this criticism. I have played 2K forever and baseball sims since Hardball on the Commodore 64. When a system is described to me I can imagine what its like...it doesnt take much. Sorry if I can figure things out better than others here....

ITS TIMING ONLY....what else do I need to know to realize that it is not sim.

Anyway...after the game comes out...and I say the same stuff...will you please publicly say "wow Mav you are smart dude....you knew it was going to be crappy before even playing it. I should shut up and listen to you more"

You're putting down a hitting system you haven't played yet. That's my only point.

If it sucks I'm not going to come here and say you were smart for making a prediction that is based on just pure assumption.

Just like I don't expect you to come here and apologize to me if it's a great system.

I don't know if the hitting system will suck or not. And guess what, no one does until the game comes out.

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Truth be told, I was perfectly content with the High Heat pitching mechanic, where you chose the pitch type and the quadrant where you wanted to throw the ball, and ratings and a certain about of statistical randomization decided where the ball went.

Sometimes the pitcher you were controlling just didn't have it and you could walk 2 straight batters on eight pitches. A lot of users didn't like not having total control of their results, but it was O.K. by me. So a timing + ratings/ability based hitting mechanic is just what I'm looking for.

I prefer the outcome to be slanted(not totally) toward statistical probability with a moderate amount of User influence.

I can see where others might feel differently though.

You know I have to say that this is the first decent argument I have heard for a timed system. To me the difference between me and you is a matter of preference. I understand where you are coming from. You prefer more statiscal or player attribute control vs user control. To you all I am saying is...I want options...in a perfect game they would allow for a system that had options that both of us could enjoy.

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

You're putting down a hitting system you haven't played yet. That's my only point.

If it sucks I'm not going to come here and say you were smart for making a prediction that is based on just pure assumption.

Just like I don't expect you to come here and apologize to me if it's a great system.

I don't know if the hitting system will suck or not. And guess what, no one does until the game comes out.

When it sucks....please understand that my prediction isnt based on pure assumption its based on the following

1. Playing real baseball my entire life
2. Playing videogame baseball since around 1986
3. Playing EVERY version of Sega/WSB/2K baseball
4. Playing the majority of baseball titles that have come out in the last 7 years.
5. Seeing vids of the hitting
6. Hearing the producer of the game describe the hitting
7. Reading reviews of people who have played with the hitting system
8. Hearing people review the hitting as they were playing with it.

My wife knows that being kicked in the balls hurts....she is not making an assumption nor has she directly been kicked in the balls.....But she knows it hurts.

Also...if the hitting system is even marginally decent. I WILL APOLOGIZE to you. I can be a very humble person. I was all about 2K...but after playing the Show I realized which game was superior. Now here is a great example. I NEVER played the Show...i read reviews and I got specific gameplay questions answered for me. When I actually played it...it was exactly as I imagined it would be when it was described as far as hitting. What I didt know was all of the subtle stuff that was in it. Also the way classic pitchin in their works...its the most realistic pitching scheme I have played with despite having the most simplistic control.

[CMH]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

When it sucks....please understand that my prediction isnt based on pure assumption its based on the following

1. Playing real baseball my entire life
2. Playing videogame baseball since around 1986
3. Playing EVERY version of Sega/WSB/2K baseball
4. Playing the majority of baseball titles that have come out in the last 7 years.
5. Seeing vids of the hitting
6. Hearing the producer of the game describe the hitting
7. Reading reviews of people who have played with the hitting system
8. Hearing people review the hitting as they were playing with it.

My wife knows that being kicked in the balls hurts....she is not making an assumption nor has she directly been kicked in the balls.....But she knows it hurts.

Man, I totally understand that you just want the most realistic system. I think all of the hardcore gamers do. I definitely want to curse myself out for reaching on an inside pitch and grounding out weakly. That's a fun challenge.

Let me make this clear because I don't think I ever said it....your idea is a good one. I think it could work, though it requires a lot of button movements. I'm sure after a while people would get comfortable with it.

I guess I'm thinking that 2k will be similar to MVP's system - which I thoroughly enjoyed despite it's flaws. If 2k fixes those flaws I think we're gonna have a good game. But I don't know what 2k will do.

Also, since you did acknowledge it's a preference thing in the above post, I'm going to just say that it's the same between you and me. I really liked High Heat's pitching system. If there was a hitting system similar to that I would take it. Right now, a timed-based hitting system that makes hitting calculations for you is the closest. It just needs to be done right.

Hopefully it will be and nothing against you, maybe we don't even have to worry about implementing your idea.

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

in truth I dont really care anymore. I am just home sick with nothing else to do right now. Seriously, I was a bit pissed when 2K was my only option. But now that I have a Ps3 i am just waiting for The Show 08. The Show 07 had things that i wanted in 2kbaseball that I had forgotten about because I was too busy complaining about them getting the basics down.

Long story short. I will be playing the Show and will be more than happy. I strongly recommend that anyone who is a true baseball sim fan or someone who is frustrated with 2K try the game out. I wont even buy 2k until after it gets stellar reviews. I might rent it just to fool around with the pitching system.

[baa7]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

My wife knows that being kicked in the balls hurts....she is not making an assumption nor has she directly been kicked in the balls.....But she knows it hurts.

You should really stop her from doing that to you... you know, if you can.

[bsb13]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

You should really stop her from doing that to you... you know, if you can.

I hate women who are quick to do that. Especially the ones that like to do a Liu Kang flying bicycle kick on you down there.

[baa7]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

I hate women who are quick to do that.

Funny that all women were quick to do that to me. That's why I switched.

Er, switched to being single, is what I meant of course!

[bsb13]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Funny that all women were quick to do that to me. That's why I switched.

Er, switched to being single, is what I meant of course!

Come on now, you know you like to taste the rainbow.

[NoSkillz50]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

iIts an interesting system, but I have some things going through my head which are making me question the plausability/promise of the system. Please free and please do correct any assumptions of mine which may be wrong.

Basically I think we have zone hitting for a reason instead of invisible cursors. I assume you want a cursor to get realistic spontaneity in bat / ball physics. So to get this effect the cursor, although it is invisible, cannot be any bigger than the bat. I assume what will change is how big the sweet spot is for better players. I do think it gets a little convoluted when using a sweet spot to along with a power and or contact attribute as well, kind of seems like having a system in a hockey game where lighter players are faster than bigger players, but then not all players of the same weight go the same speed so you also have to add on an extra speed rating as well. I'm not sure exactly how it would work, but I could see this getting in the way of the programmers trying to balance power and contact with 3 attributes that overlap, I'm not sure what kind of attribute system you would use or just how the cursor would work.

If the cursor is designed to represent an area bigger than the bat I don't see the point is using a cursor, because then the computer still decides the exact placement of the bat and therefore you lose all the reason for using a cursor system over a zone hitting system in the first place.

As far as how it works in practice I think possibly you underestimated how little time you have to react. Cursor systems usually involve a visible cursor and at least a visual cue to the pitch location. On top of this they use a simple buttom press over an analogued swing animation system and they still manage to be very challenging. I just wonder if somebody will be able to place an invisible cursor on a ball and time it properly while swinging with an analog stick. Even if it used force feedback rumble to tell you when you hit the edge of the zone it seems like it still would just be too hard. I think it might get frustrating without having any visual refrence in your mind to how fast this cursor is moving and how big it is and not quite knowing what you did wrong when you mess up. In The Show you instantly pick a zone and you know where you missed if you miss and swinging is as simple as pressing a button. In real life if you miss over the top you instantly know where you missed, its never really a mystery.